Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[PHILIPE]

Couldn't recall whether Crewe drivers used to sign via Frodsham at any point. Ironically in the days I used to use the line it was Chester and possibly Junction crews only up to Manchester direct. Holyhead were confined to Crewe direct, with no diversions and an occasional run into Llandudno Town I think.

Chester, Holyhead and the Junction sign the route now.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Surely they’ll just use a ROG driver or a DBC driver if it’s not covering a route that their own drivers sign?

 

[craigybagel]

Surely they’ll just use a ROG driver or a DBC driver if it’s not covering a route that their own drivers sign?

They probably would, but there is no need in this case - the driver instructors who've been moving the MKIVs around sign the routes required between them.

 

[PHILIPE]

There was a proving run from (3Z41 and 3Z42) hauled by 67015 from Canton to Hereford and return this afternoon. It failed at Ponthir on the way back due to compressor fault on Loco and necessitated 67010 to run from Canton to assist.


It should have run today as well but cancelled due 3 of the vehicles having square wheels.

 

[Envoy]

I wonder how these 67’s with their ex East Coast stock will fare regarding passenger comfort v the new CAF 197’s? Will savvy passengers try and use one or the other where timings are convenient and fares equal? How does the cost of operating the 67’s with DVT & 4 coaches compare with that of running a 4 coach 197?

 

[FrodshamJnct]

I wonder how these 67’s with their ex East Coast stock will fare regarding passenger comfort v the new CAF 197’s? Will savvy passengers try and use one or the other where timings are convenient and fares equal? How does the cost of operating the 67’s with DVT & 4 coaches compare with that of running a 4 coach 197?

Will they be running the same routes where passengers could have the option to choose?

 

[Envoy]

Will they be running the same routes where passengers could have the option to choose?

Yes. They will be running on The Marches and the North Wales Coast mainline. So, anybody travelling Cardiff > Newport> Hereford > Shrewsbury > Wrexham > Cheater > Llandudno Junction> Bangor > Holyhead will have a choice.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Any idea when the 67 + MK4 sets will be entering revenue earning service?

 

[47827]

Any idea when the 67 + MK4 sets will be entering revenue earning service?

Not before December, but quite possibly later than that. Nobody can be more precise, presumably, owing to the fact the training is running so far behind and there is the risk of further changes to covid restrictions, or covid related issues making that process more bumpy than in normal times. There are 3 depots guards need passing out on mk4 stock and 3 for drivers to get a conversion into handling the new sets as well driving them off a mk4 DVT. Presumably it will be predominantly those who were competent on the mk3 sets up until this year, so only a few staff who need training from scratch.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Not before December, but quite possibly later than that. Nobody can be more precise, presumably, owing to the fact the training is running so far behind and there is the risk of further changes to covid restrictions, or covid related issues making that process more bumpy than in normal times. There are 3 depots guards need passing out on mk4 stock and 3 for drivers to get a conversion into handling the new sets as well driving them off a mk4 DVT. Presumably it will be predominantly those who were competent on the mk3 sets up until this year, so only a few staff who need training from scratch.

Thanks, understandable that Covid has got in the way, and I guess indirectly the lower number of passengers at present means it's not as imperative to get them going, except for freeing up other units I suppose.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Yes. They will be running on The Marches and the North Wales Coast mainline. So, anybody travelling Cardiff > Newport> Hereford > Shrewsbury > Wrexham > Cheater > Llandudno Junction> Bangor > Holyhead will have a choice.

I don’t think most passengers would think about/notice the difference between the stock. It’d probably be times they wanted to travel that would be the main factor for choosing a particular journey. Those of us with a bit more knowledge or enthusiasts might opt for one or the other. I’ll definitely be looking to have a go on a Mk4 set!

 

[Southern Dvr]

I don’t think most passengers would think about/notice the difference between the stock. It’d probably be times they wanted to travel that would be the main factor for choosing a particular journey. Those of us with a bit more knowledge or enthusiasts might opt for one or the other. I’ll definitely be looking to have a go on a Mk4 set!

most passengers will look at (assuming there’s flexibility in their itinerary) how long the train is. Passengers want to sit and travel in relative comfort. So, if you’ve the LHCS and are most likely to get a seat that’s what will be chosen. Should the alternative be a considerably under capacity 175 (unlikely!) then they’ll choose that.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

most passengers will look at (assuming there’s flexibility in their itinerary) how long the train is. Passengers want to sit and travel in relative comfort. So, if you’ve the LHCS and are most likely to get a seat that’s what will be chosen. Should the alternative be a considerably under capacity 175 (unlikely!) then they’ll choose that.

That’s exactly why I used to opt for the Mk3/67 set from Piccadilly at 1650 instead of a 2 car 175 at 1715!

 

[DB]

most passengers will look at (assuming there’s flexibility in their itinerary) how long the train is. Passengers want to sit and travel in relative comfort. So, if you’ve the LHCS and are most likely to get a seat that’s what will be chosen. Should the alternative be a considerably under capacity 175 (unlikely!) then they’ll choose that.

The Mk4 sets actually have less standard-clas accommodation thank the Mk3 sets they replaces - 2.5 carriages, plus 1 carriage of first class. The M3s had 3 of standard and 0.5 of first.

 

[craigybagel]

Not before December, but quite possibly later than that. Nobody can be more precise, presumably, owing to the fact the training is running so far behind and there is the risk of further changes to covid restrictions, or covid related issues making that process more bumpy than in normal times. There are 3 depots guards need passing out on mk4 stock and 3 for drivers to get a conversion into handling the new sets as well driving them off a mk4 DVT. Presumably it will be predominantly those who were competent on the mk3 sets up until this year, so only a few staff who need training from scratch.

It will indeed be the same as the existing MkIII crews - so all Holyhead drivers, half of Crewe drivers and 1 link of drivers at Cardiff - plus all Holyhead and Shrewsbury conductors and 1 link of conductors at Cardiff. The latter never had any booked work on MkIIIs but a few were trained up in advance. Llandudno Junction conductors used to sign MkIIIs as well for the North Wales - Manchester service, and were due to be signing MkIVs as well but I don't know if that is still the case.

There are several traincrew of both grades however who were in the MKIII links but never received training as it made more sense at the time to wait until the MKIVs were ready so will need training from scratch.

most passengers will look at (assuming there’s flexibility in their itinerary) how long the train is. Passengers want to sit and travel in relative comfort. So, if you’ve the LHCS and are most likely to get a seat that’s what will be chosen. Should the alternative be a considerably under capacity 175 (unlikely!) then they’ll choose that.

The Mk4 sets actually have less standard-clas accommodation thank the Mk3 sets they replaces - 2.5 carriages, plus 1 carriage of first class. The M3s had 3 of standard and 0.5 of first.

Bear in mind that when the full fleet of CAFs are in service, train frequency will be higher amongst almost all sections of the Cardiff to Holyhead route, and there should be much fewer 2 car services running, so there shouldn't be as much of a difference with capacity as there was when the MKIIIs were running.

 

[Envoy]

I presume that the odd half coach is the kitchen. So, presumably those in First Class will be offered meals. What about the other passengers - would they be able to order meals and if so, would they have to eat them in the second class coaches?

 

[DB]

I presume that the odd half coach is the kitchen.

Yes - kitchen and counter area.

 

[craigybagel]

I presume that the odd half coach is the kitchen. So, presumably those in First Class will be offered meals. What about the other passengers - would they be able to order meals and if so, would they have to eat them in the second class coaches?

That was the arrangement on MKIIIs and I see no reason why this will be any different on MKIVs.

 

[Envoy]

That was the arrangement on MKIIIs and I see no reason why this will be any different on MKIVs.

Many thanks for the quick response craigybagel.

 

[Phil from Mon]

That was the arrangement on MKIIIs and I see no reason why this will be any different on MKIVs.

If you were lucky and it wasn’t too busy you could order your meal and the staff would bring it to your seat when cooked.

 

[arfortune]

I presume that the odd half coach is the kitchen. So, presumably those in First Class will be offered meals. What about the other passengers - would they be able to order meals and if so, would they have to eat them in the second class coaches?

I know the whole catering offer is currently being reviewed ready for the introduction. IIRC std passengers could have a meal if there's space but like everything else this pesky plague has thrown things in the air. Am fairly certain it'll be launched once training done and fleet on operation.

 

[Envoy]

I note that it is some of the Cardiff to Holyhead services that will be more like proper Inter City trains including a kitchen & dining rather than the south Wales to Manchester services. Wouldn’t have anything to do with certain people dining at taxpayers expense would it?

 

[arfortune]

All servioces in Wales are funded by the taxpayer! The loco hauled stock has never been diagrammed for the South Wales - Manchester services, although they will be getting 'first class' with the new stock too.

 

[Jamesrob637]

When did the Mk3s last run out of interest? March?

 

[craigybagel]

I know the whole catering offer is currently being reviewed ready for the introduction. IIRC std passengers could have a meal if there's space but like everything else this pesky plague has thrown things in the air. Am fairly certain it'll be launched once training done and fleet on operation.

Std passengers could have a meal any time they wanted as long as they ate it in standard class. If they wanted to sit in the buffet car they had to pay for the upgrade, so long as there was space available.

I note that it is some of the Cardiff to Holyhead services that will be more like proper Inter City trains including a kitchen & dining rather than the south Wales to Manchester services. Wouldn’t have anything to do with certain people dining at taxpayers expense would it?

It's no secret really - the only reason the premier service exists, and why TfW have to supply bespoke rolling stock for this route only - is because of the Welsh Governments desire to have a premium service across Wales.

When did the Mk3s last run out of interest? March?

They were briefly out and about in May, albeit not in public service, to help keep loco trained staff competent. However this only lasted a few days.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When did the Mk3s last run out of interest? March?

I think there were many cancellations and substitutions by DMUs before that date, as repairs became necessary but not considered worthwhile with the impending start of Mk4 services and lease expiry.
DMU availability was poor as well.
Through services North Wales-Cardiff have not run since March, and have been turning round at Shrewsbury.
There doesn't seem much of a push to reinstate them either, as the WG lockdown tightens again.

 

[Envoy]

I note that nobody has come back and stated the cost comparison between having the 67 hauled stock v a CAF 197? Presumably, the CAF 197 carry the same number of people would be cheaper as the locomotive would use more fuel and have higher track access charges? Anybody got a rough idea?

 

[craigybagel]

I note that nobody has come back and stated the cost comparison between having the 67 hauled stock v a CAF 197? Presumably, the CAF 197 carry the same number of people would be cheaper as the locomotive would use more fuel and have higher track access charges? Anybody got a rough idea?

It's probably commercially sensitive information and the only people with the exact figures won't be in a position to share them publicly.

I think it's a safe bet that a mixed fleet of hauled stock and 197 is going to cost more then a uniform 197 only fleet however

 

[Domh245]

Some bits are commercially sensitive and hidden away, some bits (such as the variable track access charge) aren't:

From the Track Usage price List 20-21, and supplements from June 2020, taking 195s as the closest analogue to a 197

Vehicle Type	Pence per vehicle mile
195/M	12.05
67	97.72
3 (presume normal Mk3 coach?)	10.27
4 (presume normal Mk4?)	17.70
4a (presume Mk4 DVT?)	11.73
Default Multiple Unit (motor)	45.98
Default Locomotive	101.92
Default Coach	17.70

The higher cost of the LHCS is pretty apparent!

edit to add: post 544 suggests 4 is DVT and 4a is passenger vehicle. Point still stands!

 

[CW2]

Some bits are commercially sensitive and hidden away, some bits (such as the variable track access charge) aren't:

From the Track Usage price List 20-21, and supplements from June 2020, taking 195s as the closest analogue to a 172

Vehicle Type	Pence per vehicle mile
195/M	12.05
67	97.72
3 (presume normal Mk3 coach?)	10.27
4 (presume normal Mk4?)	17.70
4a (presume Mk4 DVT?)	11.73
Default Multiple Unit (motor)	45.98
Default Locomotive	101.92
Default Coach	17.70

The higher cost of the LHCS is pretty apparent!

What sticks out to me is how much higher the costs are for a Mk4 coach compared to a Mk3. Any ideas why that should be?