Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[sd0733]

A more consistent product? I guess it depends on when you are comparing it with - if you go back to Arriva Trains Wales' standard pattern timetable the Manchester to Milford Haven / Carmarthen was pretty solidly an hourly service formed of class 175s (never in mutiple, so a mix of 2-car and 3-car). ATW's offering was very inadequate in terms of capacity between Manchester and Swansea, but it was pretty consistent. On the other hand, it wouldn't be difficult to be more-consistent than the current offer from TfW (with some 175s I assume being still grounded following the fires, leading to a stark contrast of 2-car 150s on some services and the mark 4 sets on other workings). 5-cars on nearly every TfW service between Manchester and Swansea will be a very welcome improvement in terms of capacity, but a mix of 197s and mark 4s will still be less consistent than ATW's wall-to-wall 175s Mondays to Saturdays (although on Saturdays the monotony of 175s to Milford Haven was relieved slightly by a single SO 158 diagram).


How many sets in service is that (both for the start of the new timetable and for the increased workings 2 weeks later)?

I came across some .xlsx files listing TfW diagrams in my Downloads folder last night which I don't remember downloading but I think they must have been released under the Freedom Of Information laws. This suggests five diagrams (diagram numbers 902 to 906) for mark 4 sets on Saturdays. These are supposedly LTP diagrams for Saturdays 27th May 2023 to 9th September 2023 (I've removed the shorter ECS workings - such as Canton to Cardiff Central - for clarity). Does this tie up with the current plans or are the files I have out of date?

Diagram 902
04:35 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly 08:11
08:30 Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central 11:49
14:53 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly 18:11
18:30 Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central 21:52

Diagram 903
04:13 Canton TMD to Swansea 05:10 ECS
05:30 Swansea to Manchester Piccadilly 10:11
10:30 Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central 13:48
16:50 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly 20:11
20:25 Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe CS 21:09 ECS

Diagram 904
04:54 Crewe to Cardiff Central 07:51
10:52 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly 14:11
14:30 Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central 17:53

Diagram 905
05:19 Crewe CS to Manchester Piccadilly 06:19 ECS
06:27 Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central 09:54
12:52 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly 16:11
16:30 Manchester Piccadilly to Swansea 20:54
21:28 Swansea to Canton TMD 22:59 ECS

Diagram 906
08:49 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly 12:11
12:30 Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central 15:35
18:55 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly 22:18
22:36 Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe CS 23:22 ECS

Consistency wise, the Marches have pretty much never been always 175s, there's always been booked 150s and 153s particularly mornings and evenings to rotate units. The 2 car 175s haven't really been suitable for the route for many years capacity wise, if a 3 car had been as good as guaranteed then yes I'd agree it was consistent but the mix of 2 and 3 car 175s mixed In with sprinters, to the average passenger is not consistent, with a 3 car they may well get a seat, a 2 car the next are forced to stand in the vestibule.

Once every train is booked (obviously there will still be the odd short form etc) a 5 car 197 or Mk4 then I'd maintain that to the average passenger that's more consistent as they know that they have a decent chance of getting a seat and there is no chance of a decrepit pair of 153s rolling in.

Those diagrams are slightly different to the latest ones I've seen, workings are all the same but the units do slightly different things than that. As far as I can see all 5 have had tweaks since then.

 

[JakeMurphy]

Any news on HD03 at all? Is it still at LandoRe?

 

[sd0733]

Any news on HD03 at all? Is it still at LandoRe?

67015 is planned to head down on Monday to Landore. Once there some final testing will happen then it should be heading out for testing within a couple of weeks

 

[Topological]

Does anyone know what has happened today?

Two trains on the Manchester route that were showing as MK4 are now not showing what will operate them on RTT, a couple of last minute changes from 175 to 150 as well but the lack of 67+MK4 is the most noticeable.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Does anyone know what has happened today?

Two trains on the Manchester route that were showing as MK4 are now not showing what will operate them on RTT, a couple of last minute changes from 175 to 150 as well but the lack of 67+MK4 is the most noticeable.

Lineside fire between Newport and Cardiff this morning, many service alterations.

 

[Topological]

Lineside fire between Newport and Cardiff this morning, many service alterations.

Thanks

Though mildly confusing given the set to form the 1052 was presumably in Canton at the time of the fire, and replacement trains are running in the slots that would have been the MK4 (06:30 from Manchester to Cardiff which usually starts the diagram was booked 175001 last night prior to the fire in any case and 175001 is now on the 1052 according to RTT)

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Thanks

Though mildly confusing given the set to form the 1052 was presumably in Canton at the time of the fire, and replacement trains are running in the slots that would have been the MK4 (06:30 from Manchester to Cardiff which usually starts the diagram was booked 175001 last night prior to the fire in any case and 175001 is now on the 1052 according to RTT)

We'll have to see what happens I think.

 

[Topological]

We'll have to see what happens I think.

Thanks

I notice now the allocation of 175001 has been taken off the 1052 again.

As long as there is not a problem with the trains themselves beyond the normal ones.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Yet Journey Check has it down as "more trains than usual requiring repairs at the same time"

Should have substituted "trains" with "tracks!"

 

[IslandLine101]

1052 cancelled. RTT ’problem at the depot’. I thought there was a Mk4 on Canton from Sat, and seeming that everything is moving around CDF (albeit slowly) and that the Manchesters are usually high priority to keep running leans itself to look like a set failure. It might possibly come out on the 1125 Holyhead though.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

1052 cancelled. RTT ’problem at the depot’. I thought there was a Mk4 on Canton from Sat, and seeming that everything is moving around CDF (albeit slowly) and that the Manchesters are usually high priority to keep running leans itself to look like a set failure. It might possibly come out on the 1125 Holyhead though.

Both are cancelled. The disruption has thrown everything into the air.

 

[sd0733]

1052 cancelled. RTT ’problem at the depot’. I thought there was a Mk4 on Canton from Sat, and seeming that everything is moving around CDF (albeit slowly) and that the Manchesters are usually high priority to keep running leans itself to look like a set failure. It might possibly come out on the 1125 Holyhead though.

Problem at the depot was in this case crews being displaced and in the wrong place who signed them, nothing wrong with the sets themselves.

One should be out on 1W65 from Cardiff to Manchester this evening other than that they'll just stay where they are ready for start of service tomorrow.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just checked the southbound "Gerald", which should hardly be affected by lineside problems in south Wales.
Cancelled Holyhead-Chester because of "a problem at the depot".
Ran with 175 107 Chester-Shrewsbury, then cancelled at Shrewsbury "due to a fire".
Not exactly a Premier service.
Why would the Crewe-based Mk4s not be working today?

 

[Topological]

Problem at the depot was in this case crews being displaced and in the wrong place who signed them, nothing wrong with the sets themselves.

One should be out on 1W65 from Cardiff to Manchester this evening other than that they'll just stay where they are ready for start of service tomorrow.

Are we really still at that low level of crew that sign the MK4?

Is it wise to continue with them if it only takes a small issue like this to throw everything out? The delays to inbound workings were only 20 minutes and that is IF they were working one of those inward workings prior to taking either the 1052 Manchester or the 1125 Holyhead.

The talk of stepping up the number of diagrams seems very precarious if crew is also an issue still.

 

[sd0733]

Just checked the southbound "Gerald", which should hardly be affected by lineside problems in south Wales.
Cancelled Holyhead-Chester because of "a problem at the depot".
Ran with 175 107 Chester-Shrewsbury, then cancelled at Shrewsbury "due to a fire".
Not exactly a Premier service.
Why would the Crewe-based Mk4s not be working today?

There wasn't one planned off Crewe to start with this morning so the issue was worse than it would normally be with 2 sets trapped on Canton

Are we really still at that low level of crew that sign the MK4?

Is it wise to continue with them if it only takes a small issue like this to throw everything out?

Not really but sadly sometimes when there's disruption all the holes line up to make plans go awry.

It certainly hasn't been a small issue, it's caused carnage across the network all day.

 

[Caaardiff]

Just checked the southbound "Gerald", which should hardly be affected by lineside problems in south Wales.
Cancelled Holyhead-Chester because of "a problem at the depot".
Ran with 175 107 Chester-Shrewsbury, then cancelled at Shrewsbury "due to a fire".
Not exactly a Premier service.
Why would the Crewe-based Mk4s not be working today?

Holyhead services are terminating at Shrewsbury. Having a mk4 at Shrewsbury just gets in the way so it's easier to swap it at Chester.

Are we really still at that low level of crew that sign the MK4?

Is it wise to continue with them if it only takes a small issue like this to throw everything out? The delays to inbound workings were only 20 minutes and that is IF they were working one of those inward workings prior to taking either the 1052 Manchester or the 1125 Holyhead.

The talk of stepping up the number of diagrams seems very precarious if crew is also an issue still.

If the Crew to take it back north didn't work south then its not easy to find a new set of crew. Not all crews sign them yet. Lots of crew and units get displaced when you have a thinned out service through Cardiff-Newport.
When there disruption that involves mk4 sets you don't want one them blocking up the likes of Shrewsbury if there's no-one to continue the full journey.
There's a much bigger picture going on with the disruption around Newport than you think.

 

[Topological]

This suggests TfW better keep some 150 around because the likelihood of things falling over with a small fleet like the MK4 seem to be too high.

Would be better to just have 197 on all of the services over the Marches.

 

[IslandLine101]

All very interesting. Being a Marches local we cannot wait for more Mk4 diagrams. Speaking of which is there any more news on that front? Availability seems to be improving steadily, although still hampered by mods taking longer than planned, and 67s failing a bit too often?

 

[Caaardiff]

This suggests TfW better keep some 150 around because the likelihood of things falling over with a small fleet like the MK4 seem to be too high.

Would be better to just have 197 on all of the services over the Marches.

Why? By the time 150's are due to leave, most of the fleet will be new and the majority of train crew trained up on the various fleets. There'll also be more mk4's in service each day once all the mods are completed.
There'll be enough scope within the fleet for 197's to sub for Mk4's if there's issues.

 

[sd0733]

All very interesting. Being a Marches local we cannot wait for more Mk4 diagrams. Speaking of which is there any more news on that front?

There won't be any additional weekday diagrams to start off with in the new timetable, just different diagrams with more on the Manchesters than the Holyheads. There will however be more weekend diagrams with 3 out on Saturday and 2 on Sundays from the timetable change

An extra diagram is still planned to be introduced in a few weeks once HD07 is released.

67008 is the loco now heading to Landore for final checks on 5 car HD03 rather than 015.

Making the first stage if it's journey today on: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:59866/2023-05-16/detailed

 

[IslandLine101]

Many thanks indeeD - much appreciated

 

[Techniquest]

Thanks indeed, I may find myself out on a ride to see the 67 in a bit. Something to have as an objective to the ride if that makes sense.

This thread has reminded me that I still haven't done Shrewsbury-Chester-Holyhead on a 67 yet, one of the surprisingly numerous things on my railway to-do list!

 

[sd0733]

Thanks indeed, I may find myself out on a ride to see the 67 in a bit. Something to have as an objective to the ride if that makes sense.

This thread has reminded me that I still haven't done Shrewsbury-Chester-Holyhead on a 67 yet, one of the surprisingly numerous things on my railway to-do list!

After this week the only Shrewsbury-Chester-Holyhead route is the 1714 from Cardiff and 0533 off Holyhead

 

[Techniquest]

After this week the only Shrewsbury-Chester-Holyhead route is the 1714 from Cardiff and 0533 off Holyhead

Which is why I've suddenly thought about it I might be able to combine the 1714 with a trip to Dublin, so I will see if I can work that out otherwise I may have to bust out the magic plastic!

 

[sd0733]

Which is why I've suddenly thought about it I might be able to combine the 1714 with a trip to Dublin, so I will see if I can work that out otherwise I may have to bust out the magic plastic!

At least won't head out straight to a booked unit then!

 

[Craig37]

There won't be any additional weekday diagrams to start off with in the new timetable, just different diagrams with more on the Manchesters than the Holyheads. There will however be more weekend diagrams with 3 out on Saturday and 2 on Sundays from the timetable change

An extra diagram is still planned to be introduced in a few weeks once HD07 is released.

67008 is the loco now heading to Landore for final checks on 5 car HD03 rather than 015.

Making the first stage if it's journey today on: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:59866/2023-05-16/detailed

will the Holyhead’s return at the next timetable change? Or is it a permanent removal?

 

[sd0733]

Next week due to improving availability and also completion of some mods there will be 2 diagrams on Saturday, 2 on Sunday then 4 on Monday with a spare set available at Crewe and HD07 with a loco on almost ready for being released.

will the Holyhead’s return at the next timetable change? Or is it a permanent removal?

All depends whether HD08 ever happens. If it does then its likely to return and have 6 diagrams from 8 sets, with a set on Maintenance and a 'hot spare' at Crewe, if it doesn't then its likely to be permanent and remain 5 diagrams from 7.

 

[Techniquest]

At least won't head out straight to a booked unit then!

Oh indeed! If I had any confidence in it producing, I'd book me and my Blue Beauty onto the 0754 (or whatever exactly it is) from Hereford tomorrow. I don't feel confident in it not producing a 150 though

 

[Anonymous10]

Next week due to improving availability and also completion of some mods there will be 2 diagrams on Saturday, 2 on Sunday then 4 on Monday with a spare set available at Crewe and HD07 with a loco on almost ready for being released.

All depends whether HD08 ever happens. If it does then its likely to return and have 6 diagrams from 8 sets, with a set on Maintenance and a 'hot spare' at Crewe, if it doesn't then its likely to be permanent and remain 5 diagrams from 7.

Is hd08 the set currently in bits, in sidings at Landore visible from the line into Swansea?

 

[sd0733]

Oh indeed! If I had any confidence in it producing, I'd book me and my Blue Beauty onto the 0754 (or whatever exactly it is) from Hereford tomorrow. I don't feel confident in it not producing a 150 though

Should be OK tomorrow, HD04 down for that tomorrow.

Is hd08 the set currently in bits, in sidings at Landore visible from the line into Swansea?

It's some of the coaches there. There's also coaches for spare parts and the "5th cars" to go into the other sets too.