Ex LNER Mark 4 sets for TfW

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
3,138
Given 5 car trains are planned to run between Manchester and Swansea, would it not be worthwhile to extend those 4 car platforms anyway? (I realise that's a more long term task than getting the Mk4's in)

Or are the Civities going to have ASDO which is more fondly looked on than standard SDP
The latter I believe is the plan. At least some of the platforms in question would be very difficult to extend anyway.

Incidentally, many stations have already been fitted with stop boards for the MKIV sets - at least some of which are in positions that would not work if the sets were extended.
They can get them as soon as they like, the carriages will still need a long list of work doing to them before being compatible with a 67 and ready to work. Maybe summer next year...
Indeed. I suspect the original 3 sets will enter service in their current 4 car formation long before anything from these extra sets do (if indeed they're even coming in the first place, none of this is has been confirmed yet!).
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Rhydgaled

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
3,680
I do agree that 2.5 Std class is too low capacity and 3.5 is needed which leaves the SDO issue and the usual ridiculously OTT safety nonsense the British railways seem to love putting in its own way.
Something that should be remembered is that, assuming all these class 197 abominations arrive, more 3-car units with 1st class have been ordered than are needed for Manchester-Swansea. We do not know where the remaining 1st-class-fitted units would be used, but the numbers (and that fact that 1st class has not been advertised for any other route) suggest that either the 3-car unit will continue to Milford Haven at times (possibily declassified) or Holyhead-Cardiff will have 1st class on all workings. In the latter case the non-mark 4 trains on the Holyhead-Cardiff route would also have less than 3 coaches of standard class capacity.

Indeed.
But SDO is not tenable to the authorities
Whyever not? Seems alot more sensible than local door operation.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
8,535
Location
Somewhere, not in London
I know the 67's need interlock facilities & signal buzzers fitting plus the transponder equipment. Knowing the railways it will take at least 12 months to do it ! It's a shame as this summer is when they are needed
Not to mention a load of new wiring in the carriages, fitting PIS, FDM mods, making the Mk.4 DVT talk to it all etc etc.
Whyever not? Seems alot more sensible than local door operation.
No grandfather rights. And "Because ORR".
 

wobman

On Moderation
Joined
2 Jan 2011
Messages
290
Looks like they plan to stop virtually everywhere on the test run.

When these services start running with the on-board restaurant, they could well attract quite an amount of tourist traffic - especially with places like Cardiff, Ludlow, Shrewsbury, Chester on this scenic route. A stop at Conwy would also be useful.
Conwy can only take a 2 car unit until the covid restrictions cease, even in normal times a 3 or 4 car is local door.

The MK4 sets are meant to be a limited stop faster service, if they stopped at Conwy then it would be a slower service & make things very complicated for TFW.
 

Rhydgaled

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
3,680
No grandfather rights. And "Because ORR".
But how is the ORR's prefered auto-SDO (potentially relying on GPS that is not 100% accurate depending on whether a GPS-based or balise-based system is used) safer than a guard pressing a button to unlock only the doors ahead/behind the local panel instead of all doors (as I am led to believe it was done on GWR HSTs - in fact is it still done this way on the GWR Pembroke Dock services?)? I can understand the ORR not allowing unlocking of all doors at a short platform and relying on passengers to check there is a platform; obvious saftey risk there. But with SDO there I cannot see the risk.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
8,535
Location
Somewhere, not in London
But how is the ORR's prefered auto-SDO (potentially relying on GPS that is not 100% accurate depending on whether a GPS-based or balise-based system is used) safer than a guard pressing a button to unlock only the doors ahead/behind the local panel instead of all doors (as I am led to believe it was done on GWR HSTs - in fact is it still done this way on the GWR Pembroke Dock services?)? I can understand the ORR not allowing unlocking of all doors at a short platform and relying on passengers to check there is a platform; obvious saftey risk there. But with SDO there I cannot see the risk.
Not that I agree with the ORR logic. But. That's what they say and what the operators implement in their risk assessments. So that's how it is.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
23,061
Location
Redcar
Just wanted to get on here and ask if there are any MK4 carriages destined for scrap?
Quite a few have already been scrapped!

There is a decent list here and I'm sure if you enquired on that thread people would be happy to help :)
 
Last edited:

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
12,607
Location
Caerphilly

43096

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
9,551
Blimey! They didn't hang about.
Nope! If there’s no realistic prospect of them being re-leased then why hang on to them, incurring storage costs.

Same applies to the 321s as well - which are also Eversholt owned.
 

47827

Member
Joined
3 Mar 2020
Messages
162
Location
Middleport
I'd guess if a single diagram is got back it'll be just 1 diagram out and back Holyhead to Cardiff as per the original WAG diagram with set swaps at Canton as a handful of drivers at Holyhead/Crewe/Cardiff and enough guards at their respective depots would have passed out by early summer to attempt some sort of turn, given training started again over the winter very slowly. Then amend to 2 diagrams by the end of the summer/September and anything else is still speculation after that. That's all assuming the managers aren't being widly optimistic over the first turn. May could prove to be June/July though of course.
 

Wolfie

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
2,785
I used the dining service (both ways) about 5 times between December 2019 until March 2020 (just before Covid struck). Southbound you'd get about 50% in dining but the Northbound was pretty much 100% with little space for those turning up at the last minute.

To be honest it was very good high quality food and the staff fantastic. Hopefully, when we get back to normal I can sample it again.
What was the cost like?
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
11,130
Location
Glasgow
No idea but probably Press and high ranking staff. I didn't see them but not ordinary fare paying passengers
Right, wasn't sure if it was purely rail staff or if they'd invited the media

Nope! If there’s no realistic prospect of them being re-leased then why hang on to them, incurring storage costs.

Same applies to the 321s as well - which are also Eversholt owned.
I appreciate that, just surprised how many they'd scrapped as opposed to how many were scrapped and awaiting scrapping.

What was the cost like?
For the first class upgrade?
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
23,061
Location
Redcar
What was the cost like?

Depended on exactly what ticking combo you went with and if you had railcards but potentially very cheap. Last few times I did it it was between Cardiff and Chester and I tended to buy a Standard Class AP and then the Business Zone upgrade (utilising a tame booking office clerk as it can be a pain to procure). I can't recall what the AP was without a railcard but probably £20 odd and then the upgrade can be had for £26 on that bit of the route so for around £50 for travel and a three course (very high quality, seriously it was always proper restaurant quality and good portions) meal I'd call it extremely good value.

Both the AP and the Upgrade are railcard discountable as well. I'm sure I've done it for around £30 in the past.
 

nedchester

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2008
Messages
1,559
Depended on exactly what ticking combo you went with but potentially very cheap. Last few times I did it it was between Cardiff and Chester and I tended to buy a Standard Class AP and then the Business Zone upgrade (utilising a tame booking office clerk as it can be a pain to procure). I can't recall what the AP was without a railcard but probably £20 odd and then the upgrade can be had for £26 on that bit of the route so for around £50 for travel and a three course (very high quality, seriously it was always proper restaurant quality and good portions) meal I'd call it extremely good value.

Both the AP and the Upgrade are railcard discountable as well. I'm sure I've done it for around £30 in the past.
Yes I forgot the AP + Upgrade option as well.

Either way - very good value.
 

Wolfie

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
2,785
Nope! If there’s no realistic prospect of them being re-leased then why hang on to them, incurring storage costs.

Same applies to the 321s as well - which are also Eversholt owned.
Agreed. That's what makes some of the more outlandish MK3 proposals seen on here even more ridiculous.

A Chester to Cardiff C Off-peak return was about £79 for Standard and £119 for First but included Breakfast in the morning and 3-course meal in the evening.
TY.

Right, wasn't sure if it was purely rail staff or if they'd invited the media


I appreciate that, just surprised how many they'd scrapped as opposed to how many were scrapped and awaiting scrapping.


For the first class upgrade?
Re the cost: for the upgrade and the food.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
23,061
Location
Redcar
Yes I forgot the AP + Upgrade option as well.

Either way - very good value.

Yes that was always the cheapest way of doing it. I think technically it wasn't valid to use a Standard AP with the upgrade but I've never had a conductor on there even given a second glance once presented with the upgrade and a reservation for the business zone. The 1st Class APs were usually not too bad value either. I did it once from Cardiff to Holyhead and opted for APs as I was travelling with my mother and decided to go for the 100% guaranteed no bother option rather than the 99% guaranteed no bother option and I feel like they came in at around £60 each. Which again considering the inclusive food, distance travelled and first class I thought was excellent value even if it wasn't the cheapest way of doing it.

It's one of the reasons I feel like there might be some growth potential on the service. I think you could probably jack up the prices a bit and as long as you maintained the quality service still sell even more seats than they were doing pre-pandemic (with a bit of marketing).
 

Wolfie

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
2,785
Depended on exactly what ticking combo you went with and if you had railcards but potentially very cheap. Last few times I did it it was between Cardiff and Chester and I tended to buy a Standard Class AP and then the Business Zone upgrade (utilising a tame booking office clerk as it can be a pain to procure). I can't recall what the AP was without a railcard but probably £20 odd and then the upgrade can be had for £26 on that bit of the route so for around £50 for travel and a three course (very high quality, seriously it was always proper restaurant quality and good portions) meal I'd call it extremely good value.

Both the AP and the Upgrade are railcard discountable as well. I'm sure I've done it for around £30 in the past.
Sounds great value done that way, TY.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
3,138
I'd guess if a single diagram is got back it'll be just 1 diagram out and back Holyhead to Cardiff as per the original WAG diagram with set swaps at Canton as a handful of drivers at Holyhead/Crewe/Cardiff and enough guards at their respective depots would have passed out by early summer to attempt some sort of turn, given training started again over the winter very slowly. Then amend to 2 diagrams by the end of the summer/September and anything else is still speculation after that. That's all assuming the managers aren't being widly optimistic over the first turn. May could prove to be June/July though of course.
Not sure I'd say the training is that slow - 2 guards and 2 drivers can be trained per depot a per week, and that is often being achieved. It's a 3 day course for each (though in the drivers case that's only the conversation if they previously signed 67s and MKIIIs).
Didn't it use to be a flat fee? Or has it always worked on a distance basis?
Certainly been a distance basis for many years, predating the change from First class to Business class. You can play around with BR fares and get the prices for each station combination.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
11,130
Location
Glasgow
Certainly been a distance basis for many years, predating the change from First class to Business class. You can play around with BR fares and get the prices for each station combination.
I've misunderstood the pricing then

Something like £20 CDF-SHR £25 CDF-CTR £30 CDF-HHD
That's probably where I'm getting the '£20' figure from - the minimum to make use of the dining facilities?
 

Top