Excess ticket to travel earlier

[Marty82]

Asked at Edinburgh Waverley ticket office (VTEC operated) to excess my ticket (full details below) to allow me to travel earlier the same day (in standard class if cheaper than first class). Was told that as it was a VTEC only ticket I could only excess to a VTEC service - the next one being 1428 - at a cost of ~£74.00 in total for two. I then asked about the next train of any operator (ScotRail at 1134) and was told two new standard class tickets (Anytime Single) would be ~£36.00. I consulted my partner on this and we then purchased the latter option at a machine.

My question is basically how can it be cheaper to buy totally new tickets rather than changing existing tickets? Is this to do with different operators? Even if this is the case then surely even changing to a different single ticket on VTEC should still be cheaper than a wholly new ticket for any operator. I am not at all knowledgable about the rules for excessing tickets so wanted to check with all you clever folk.

Thanks in advance - really enjoy reading all the different threads on these forums. Martin

Ticket Held

Route: Edinburgh Waverley to Aberdeen
Ticket: 2 x Advance First Class Single (Virgin Trains East Coast)
Time/Date: 2032, 27 March
Railcard: Two Together
Price: 2 x £18.15

 

[hairyhandedfool]

For 'Advance' tickets there are admin fees for changing the tickets. To change one Advance incurs a £10 charge, each Advance is charged seperately, so to change two incurs a £20 charge. This charge is in addition to any difference in the fares.

If the clerk told you the fare to pay was £74 in total, the difference in fare was likely only £54 (£27 each), but the charges took it up to £74. However, if the clerk knew the new tickets were cheaper they should have offered that instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The question is probably can you excess a 1st Advance to a Std Anytime.

If you can, new tickets should not have been cheaper, only if the ticket is worth less than £10 should that ever be the case.

 

[Marty82]

For 'Advance' tickets there are admin fees for changing the tickets. To change one Advance incurs a £10 charge, each Advance is charged seperately, so to change two incurs a £20 charge. This charge is in addition to any difference in the fares.

If the clerk told you the fare to pay was £74 in total, the difference in fare was likely only £54 (£27 each), but the charges took it up to £74. However, if the clerk knew the new tickets were cheaper they should have offered that instead.

Yes - I knew there would be an admin fee but it still seemed crazy that it was cheaper to buy an entirely new (incidentally more flexible) ticket than change existing ones. I had to ask about new tickets rather than being offered. Ta for your quick reply HHF.

The question is probably can you excess a 1st Advance to a Std Anytime.

If you can, new tickets should not have been cheaper, only if the ticket is worth less than £10 should that ever be the case.

Oh, is it not possible to excess as you described? Am I correct to question this given what you say in you second paragraph? Ta Neil.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh, is it not possible to excess as you described? Am I correct to question this given what you say in you second paragraph? Ta Neil.

Ah, now I understand. I was confused by you showing the cost of excesses to the next VTEC service as one amount for both of you, but the new tickets as one amount each, and had the impression they were not excessing to Standard.

For ScotRail new tickets were the only option at any price, you cannot excess away a TOC specific restriction.

The cost to change both to Standard on the next VTEC should have been £52.90 though, which with Railcard would have discounted to around £35, assuming you can excess a First Advance to a Standard Anytime, which I'm not sure.

The new single tickets *with Railcard* should have come to around £24 each, did you not get the Railcard discount on those either?

 

[Marty82]

Ah, now I understand. I was confused by you showing the cost of excesses to the next VTEC service as one amount for both of you, but the new tickets as one amount each, and had the impression they were not excessing to Standard.

For ScotRail new tickets were the only option at any price, you cannot excess away a TOC specific restriction.

The cost to change both to Standard on the next VTEC should have been £52.90 though, which with Railcard would have discounted to around £35, assuming you can excess a First Advance to a Standard Anytime, which I'm not sure.

The new single tickets *with Railcard* should have come to around £24 each, did you not get the Railcard discount on those either?

Thanks Neil - my apologies for any confusion caused by way of wording things. I ended up buying 2 Anytime Singles which cost £23.35 each including Two Together discount (£46.70 in total) from a machine.

So, the issue here is excessing from a First Advance to another ticket?

I would have thought VTEC would be keen to excess to a VTEC only standard single as they would keep more of the cash rather than having to give some to Scotrail etc and I would've thought it cheaper for me (ie good customer service which I thought was one of Virgin's mantras).

I guess I'm maybe looking at this too simplistically that buying a new ticket shouldn't be cheaper than changing an existing one.

TBH it took about ten minutes for the ticket office clerk to even find the correct fee to excess. I thought this would be a fairly common request especially at a major station like Waverley.

Thanks again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, the issue here is excessing from a First Advance to another ticket?

It seems so (in terms of the price to change to the next VTEC).

 

[Marty82]

It seems so (in terms of the price to change to the next VTEC).

Hmmm - I thought you could change to any other fare by paying the admin fee (£10 per ticket) and any difference. National Rail makes no mention of different classes or specific operators or any operator tickets being an issue. NR's website states the following:

Advance: You can visit any booking office, call the telesales outlet or visit the online website that you bought your ticket from. If there are still other Advance fares available, you can change it to another Advance fare. You will be charged an admin fee of £10 per ticket.

If there are no Advance fares available, you can upgrade the ticket to the most appropriate ticket for the journey you now want to make. You will have to pay any difference in fare and an admin fee of £10 per ticket.

Please note that changes to 'Advance' fares cannot be made on-board the train. If you board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased.

 

[Marty82]

Just checked my booking email from VTEC. It states "changeable for a fee" and at the bottom says:

And if you want to be really thorough, our terms and conditions and the National Conditions of Travel apply to this booking, both of which you can read at your leisure.

Neither the Ts&Cs nor the NCOT state anything regarding what can and can't be excesses to and from.

Think I'm going to fire an email off to VTEC about it but wanted to check with you knowledgeable folk first. Will explain what happened and include the following information:

£18.15 x 2 = £36.30 (Original Tickets)

£36.60 - (2 x £10.00) = £16.60 (Credit after admin fees)

£22.85 x 2 = £45.70 (Cost of 2 new tickets (VTEC only) with Two Together discount taken from brfares.com & shown below)

£45.70 - £16.60 = £29.10 (Excess to pay)

Note - excess to pay would be £1 more if an "any permitted" ticket.

ANYTIME S
SOS Route
VTEC ONLY Validity
TWO DAYS Adult 2GETH
£22.85 ◊
Fare Setter: VIRGIN TRAINS EAST COAST

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I agree, except for that it is definitely the case you cannot excess away a TOC specific restriction.

 

[Marty82]

Yes, I agree, except for that it is definitely the case you cannot excess away a TOC specific restriction.

Thanks Neil - I appreciate you taking the time and effort to answer. I did not know you couldn't excess away a TOC specific restriction. I feel this should be in either the NCOT or the Ts&Cs. So I will fire an email away and see what happens.

I feel rather annoyed at having to do this as members of staff at a flagship station (who I am sure deal with many people who have never used trains in the UK before) should know how to work the ticketing systems properly. Does anyone know if VTEC have recently installed a new system which would explain the ticket office's poor service? I am also rather annoyed about the TOC specific restriction as there is no mention of it in the documents which VTEC sent links to in their email. If passengers can't rely on these documents then what is the point in even having them?

Sorry if I sound a bit ranty, it's not my intention, and thanks again to all those who have offered help so far.

 

[OwlMan]

See the T&Cs of Advance tickets at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46546.aspx

My highlight

Changing the time or date of travel

• Changes to time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no value and a new one must be purchased. You will need to present the ticket(s) and reservation(s) when you request a change.
• Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If you board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased. Depending on the Train Company you are travelling with, you may be liable to a Penalty Fare if you board the train with an invalid ticket.
• The origin, destination and Train Company or route shown on the ticket(s) must remain the same.
• The difference between the price paid and cost of the next suitable fare for your journey is payable, plus an administration fee of up to £10 per person, per single ticket for each change to a journey. If you change to a train on which a cheaper fare is available, the difference will not be refunded.

 

[janb]

Yes, First Advance can be changed to Standard. To quote the advance FAQs,

First advance may also be changed to a Standard Class walk up ticket.

To change to a different VTEC service should have cost,

£23.35 - £18.15 = £5.20 + £10 = £15.20 per person
(not sure that VTEC only fare is available, BRFares says until 14th March, if it is still available then its 50p less)

However in terms of travelling on other operators the following applies,

Q: Can someone buy an Advance ticket, then excess it to an “Any Permitted” ticket and use it on another operator’s train service?
A: No, they must continue with the operator shown on their original advance ticket, otherwise they would need to purchase a brand new Any Permitted ticket

Which would be the £23.35 per person

 

[Marty82]

See the T&Cs of Advance tickets at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46546.aspx

My highlight

Thanks OwlMan - I didn't see that as I was looking at this page (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46594.aspx)as it is for "Changing and Cancelling tickets". Common sense would say that National Rail would mention it there since the page concerns changing tickets!

To me this just highlights that the information available to the customer isn't clear enough - that's even the information that VTEC email to their customers along with the tickets concerned.

Thanks again OwlMan.

 

[Marty82]

Yes, First Advance can be changed to Standard. To quote the advance FAQs,



To change to a different VTEC service should have cost,

£23.35 - £18.15 = £5.20 + £10 = £15.20 per person
(not sure that VTEC only fare is available, BRFares says until 14th March, if it is still available then its 50p less)

However in terms of travelling on other operators the following applies,



Which would be the £23.35 per person

Thanks janb!

Phew - I'm not going crazy then. I'm just annoyed that a major station's ticket office didn't know this.

I guess I have two arguments with VTEC then: firstly that they should've excessed First Advance to Standard Anytime and secondly that the information on what can and cannot be excessed needs to be clearer (I looked on three different VTEC or NR documents (two of which they mentioned) but it took another forum member to find me the information on a fourth document).

Any idea how I find out the current fare then since you mention it is no longer available?

Ta again!

 

[janb]

Thanks janb!

Any idea how I find out the current fare then since you mention it is no longer available?

Ta again!

The current fare is that VTEC one at £22.85 (I was reading the time limit against the wrong fare on BR Fares)
(-£18.15 + £10 = £14.70 to pay to change)

 

[reb0118]

As an aside it's damn hard to excess a ticket discounted with a Two Together Railcard.

Namely you can only excess one ticket at a time BUT you need two tickets in the basket to apply the discount.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[janb]

As an aside it's damn hard to excess a ticket discounted with a Two Together Railcard.

Namely you can only excess one ticket at a time BUT you need two tickets in the basket to apply the discount.

Yep, I've never had to do one, but I believe on STAR you would either do it as a manual excess fare or set it up with a different railcard (ie 16-25) using the more automated process and then send to manual fares and change the railcard.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yep, I've never had to do one, but I believe on STAR you would either do it as a manual excess fare or set it up with a different railcard (ie 16-25) using the more automated process and then send to manual fares and change the railcard.

I've always done it the fully manual way, but doing it twice is a bit of a pain.