Expensive fares London to Brighton

[ianBR]

Anyone looking to buy a day return from London Vic to Brighton this Saturday 12 Oct will be sold any anytime day return for £52 (as there are no southern only fares that day)

And yet you could buy a Brighton to Vic return and you’ll be offered a day travel card for £21.

Or travel independently to the same thameslink station your itinerary is sending to you and buy a much cheaper thameslink ticket.

Why do people who start in London get penalised so much. It is so unfair on tourists who do not realise there are cheaper options for their journey.

Equally anyone buying a ticket from Canary Wharf (Elizabeth line) to Brighton is never offered a cheaper thameslink only ticket even if all the itineraries displayed involve changing at Farringdon or Blackfriars onto Thameslink trains

 

[Haywain]

Equally anyone buying a ticket from Canary Wharf (Elizabeth line) to Brighton is never offered a cheaper thameslink only ticket even if all the itineraries displayed involve changing at Farringdon or Blackfriars onto Thameslink trains

Because if you start from Canary Wharf, the journey can't be 'Thameslink only' - they will be using either London Underground or the Elizabeth line for part of the journey.

 

[signed]

Anyone looking to buy a day return from London Vic to Brighton this Saturday 12 Oct will be sold any anytime day return for £52 (as there are no southern only fares that day)

A Anytime day return is £40.80, no fares are £52

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

If you want a cheap fare from Vic, you can get (needs to be booked 3 days in advance) a £25 southern only daysave ticket

 

[ianBR]

Because if you start from Canary Wharf, the journey can't be 'Thameslink only' - they will be using wither London Underground or the Elizabeth line for part of the journey.

I get that but the end result is that people are paying 20 quid extra for their 2 minute ride on the Elizabeth line.

A TFL/Thameslink only fare would be much fairer

A Anytime day return is £40.80, no fares are £52

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

If you want a cheap fare from Vic, you can get (needs to be booked 3 days in advance) a £25 southern only daysave ticket

Avanti is certainly charging people 52 quid

 

[signed]

Southern as well does charge £52, but that makes no sense for Anytime to be cheaper than Off-Peak.

There does seem to be either a glitch or engineering works.

I think I actually get it, there are no service from Victoria at all on Saturday and Sunday

Engineering works: London Victoria | National Rail

No Gatwick Express or Southern trains to / from London Victoria and no Southern trains to / from Watford Junction on Saturday 12 and Sunday 13 October . See details of routes affected by planned engineering works, including when they take effect, alternative timetables, advice for alternative...

www.nationalrail.co.uk

So the only ticket sellable is a Tube to Blackfriars and Thameslink to Brighton

All Southern Trains to the coast are running from London Bridge instead, and the London Bridge to Brighton shows a £15.50 Super Off-Peak Day return

 

[Mcr Warrior]

A Anytime day return is £40.80, no fares are £52

An Anytime Day Return, if it's from Zone1256 London to Brighton, is £52.00. Doesn't seem to be an Off Peak Day Return equivalent, just an Off Peak (Period) Return.

 

[signed]

An Anytime Day Return if it's from Zone1256 London to Brighton is exactly £52.00.

I didn't catch that no trains from Vic were running so the fare was a Zone fare

 

[Benjwri]

Southern as well does charge £52, but that makes no sense for Anytime to be cheaper than Off-Peak.

There does seem to be either a glitch or engineering works.

I think I actually get it, there are no service from Victoria at all on Saturday and Sunday

Engineering works: London Victoria | National Rail

No Gatwick Express or Southern trains to / from London Victoria and no Southern trains to / from Watford Junction on Saturday 12 and Sunday 13 October . See details of routes affected by planned engineering works, including when they take effect, alternative timetables, advice for alternative...

www.nationalrail.co.uk

So the only ticket sellable is a Tube to Blackfriars and Thameslink to Brighton

All Southern Trains to the coast are running from London Bridge instead, and the London Bridge to Brighton shows a £15.50 Super Off-Peak Day return

This is happening because the Southern side of Victoria is closed. Travelling to Brighton, given southern isn’t running service up the BML at all, is a very poor idea, I doubt they want to reduce fares and hence encourage travel.

 

[ianBR]

It does seem insane that on days when there is engineering work customers suffer a worse service and also get charged more for their tickets despite all the journeys being on Govia.

All those tourists trying to go Victoria to Gatwick will also be charged more than the normal Gatwick express fare this Saturday, despite the journey taking twice as long and requiring a change of train.

It would be much better just to sell the normal fares regardless of the revised routings

 

[Watershed]

I think I can see what @ianBR is getting at, albeit it would have been helpful if they'd told us from the start the journey is actually starting at Canary Wharf rather than London Victoria

From Canary Wharf, you can't buy a point to point fare to Brighton - as point to point fares don't exist to/from the newly opened Elizabeth line 'core' stations. Instead you have to buy a ticket from the relevant Underground Zones (Zone U123 ideally).

Southern (who price the Underground Zones to Brighton flow) have decided not to offer fares for anything less than Zones 1-6, so you are effectively forced to overpay for zonal validity in Zones 3-6 that you don't need.

To add insult to injury there also isn't a "Thameslink only" fare from Zone U1256 to Brighton, so you are paying the higher "Any Permitted" price even though the most plausible journey opportunities generally only involve Thameslink-branded services.

So in this case, it isn't actually that people travelling from London are being penalised*. It is that people travelling both to and from Brighton - who want a through ticket to Underground Zones - are penalised. This is compounded by the fact that there are lots of journeys involving the Elizabeth line core for which normal point to point NR tickets don't exist - even though they should, as it is a part of the National Rail network. You can blame TfL for that one...

The cheapest option here is to buy a combination of tickets, most likely involving using contactless/Oyster PAYG between Canary Wharf and Farringdon (touching out/back in at the standalone yellow readers), and then a Farringdon or London Thameslink to Brighton Super Off-Peak Day Return, routed "Thameslink only". This would cost a total of £21.10, assuming no Railcard.

*Though that is true to a certain degree, as the former Connex "PriceBuster" fares - now the "Any Permitted" Super Off-Peak Day Returns on flows priced by Southern - only exist for travel towards London. For one-way journeys or certain period return journeys, buying two of these (starting the coast-bound journey on the return portion of a Day Return bought towards London) is generally cheapest.

 

[Hophead]

From Canary Wharf, would Jubilee to London Bridge, then Thameslink only to Brighton work out cheaper?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

From Canary Wharf, would Jubilee to London Bridge, then Thameslink only to Brighton work out cheaper?

Would have thought so. A Super Off Peak Day Return should be available from London Terminals to/from Brighton (route "Thameslink Only") on a Saturday for £15.50 before any applicable railcard discount. (Plus whatever from Canary Wharf to/from London Bridge).

 

[MikeWh]

From Canary Wharf, would Jubilee to London Bridge, then Thameslink only to Brighton work out cheaper?

Yes if you pay for the tube separately.

 

[ianBR]

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

In my case I realised I could just save a fortune by buying a travel card from Brighton and use it in reverse when travelling from Canary Wharf….. but so many people will be paying more than they need to.

Interestingly if you use trainsplit and put CWX to BTN and add via Farringdon it will show you an itinerary using the Elizabeth line but sell you a single super off-peak
Zone 12 to Brighton (thameslink only) for 18.80.

I assume that shouldn’t be valid given the explanations above?

 

[Adam Williams]

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

In my case I realised I could just save a fortune by buying a travel card from Brighton and use it in reverse when travelling from Canary Wharf….. but so many people will be paying more than they need to.

Interestingly if you use trainsplit and put CWX to BTN and add via Farringdon it will show you an itinerary using the Elizabeth line but sell you a single super off-peak
Zone 12 to Brighton (thameslink only) for 18.80.

I assume that shouldn’t be valid given the explanations above?

TrainSplit will construct and sell London zonal add-on fares by adding an "add-on" component to point-to-point fares and selling the customer a Keyed fare. The tickets sold are perfectly valid.

The train operators (well, one in particular who kicked up a fuss) didn't like TrainSplit doing this - despite the fact it was entirely in alignment with documented iKB procedure, and decided to remove these fares entirely, so these will not be possible to purchase forever. There is currently a transition period where TrainSplit has authority to continue retailing these fares until remedial technical work can be carried out.

 

[OscarH]

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

In my case I realised I could just save a fortune by buying a travel card from Brighton and use it in reverse when travelling from Canary Wharf….. but so many people will be paying more than they need to.

Interestingly if you use trainsplit and put CWX to BTN and add via Farringdon it will show you an itinerary using the Elizabeth line but sell you a single super off-peak
Zone 12 to Brighton (thameslink only) for 18.80.

I assume that shouldn’t be valid given the explanations above?

It is valid, because of some now deprecated rules about constructing tube fares (and that part of the Elizabeth line is the tube for ticketing)

The rules are being phased out and that fare will cease to exist in due course.

 

[jon81uk]

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

In my case I realised I could just save a fortune by buying a travel card from Brighton and use it in reverse when travelling from Canary Wharf….. but so many people will be paying more than they need to.

The vast majority of people would just get a London Terminals ticket to their destination and then use contactless/Oyster on the tube to get to the terminal. I very much doubt "so many" people are using Canary Wharf as a starting location for journeys. Most people think "I need to go from London to Brighton and then I need to get from my local tube/DLR/Elizabeth station to the relevant London National Rail station, whether that is London Bridge or Victoria.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In my case I realised I could just save a fortune by buying a travel card from Brighton and use it in reverse when travelling from Canary Wharf….. but so many people will be paying more than they need to.

Would that actually be allowed? Surely the outward and return travel (outside the London zones) would then be the wrong way around?

 

[Benjwri]

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

In my case I realised I could just save a fortune by buying a travel card from Brighton and use it in reverse when travelling from Canary Wharf….. but so many people will be paying more than they need to.

Interestingly if you use trainsplit and put CWX to BTN and add via Farringdon it will show you an itinerary using the Elizabeth line but sell you a single super off-peak
Zone 12 to Brighton (thameslink only) for 18.80.

I assume that shouldn’t be valid given the explanations above?

Worth noting you should not use a travelcard in reverse. You cannot use the return portion before the outward. While difficult to prove you are in theory travelling without a valid ticket.

Would that actually be allowed? Surely the outward and return travel (outside the London zones) would then be the wrong way around?

Yes it isn’t allowed, although may be difficult to prove I guess

 

[soil]

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

In my case I realised I could just save a fortune by buying a travel card from Brighton and use it in reverse when travelling from Canary Wharf….. but so many people will be paying more than they need to.

you can't though, unless you want to remain in Brighton and not return to London.

also the fare difference between the super off peak day return and contactless vs invalid travelcard is only around 10p, so not a fortune at all.

 

[Hophead]

It's fairly likely that the barriers at Brighton would swallow the Travelcard, as the ticket's validity would be deemed to have expired.

 

[ianBR]

I was only travelling in one direction so that wasn’t an issue (although in my experience the barriers never retain travelcards. In theory you could travel back up to London independently and the TFL travel card portion of the ticket is still valid)

A standard off peak return is always cheaper from Brighton to London than from London to Brighton. In that scenario you’d have two separate tickets so could obviously use them in the wrong order without any issue.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I was only travelling in one direction so that wasn’t an issue...

Although, to be fair, you did talk about day returns in your opening post. For a one-way journey, not a problem.

 

[dastocks]

It's fairly likely that the barriers at Brighton would swallow the Travelcard, as the ticket's validity would be deemed to have expired.

From memory I don't think they do unless it's fairly late in the day because the Travelcard component of the ticket is still theoretically valid. If you buy a ticket from/to Hove but exit at Brighton (or vice versa) the barrier will give the ticket back because it's still valid for a break of journey.

 

[MikeWh]

A standard off peak return is always cheaper from Brighton to London than from London to Brighton. In that scenario you’d have two separate tickets so could obviously use them in the wrong order without any issue.

You can't guarantee the "without any issue" bit. If a ticket checker noticed that you were using the outward portion several hours after the ticket was sold/printed they might start asking questions. Legally the outward portion is only valid to use if the return portion is completely unused.

 

[MrJeeves]

From memory I don't think they do unless it's fairly late in the day because the Travelcard component of the ticket is still theoretically valid. If you buy a ticket from/to Hove but exit at Brighton (or vice versa) the barrier will give the ticket back because it's still valid for a break of journey.

Except there is no Thameslink Only fare from Hove (for somewhat obvious reasons!) :P

If you have a ticket to Brighton, it will be eaten by the barriers at Brighton.

 

[Starmill]

If you had a ticket back to London and wanted to continue using the travelcard later you could just show that and ask to keep the ticket, I really don't see how it makes a difference. I think the only time I did something similar it was because I wanted to use the Travelcard the previous night for a journey starting just after midnight. I can't remember where the origin on the Travelcard was, it might have been Dartford, back when Dartford was still outside the Travelcard Zones. It certainly can't be a very common question to come up, but for the very occasional case I don't see anything wrong with it. Maybe I was travelling on the 0003 London Victoria to Dartford, but it was so many years ago now.

I've heard people might occasionally ask to keep their paper one day Travelcard at Potters Bar, Dorking, Watford Junction and so on because they are permitted to make more journeys and there is a TfL bus right outside the station.

 

[Benjwri]

You can't guarantee the "without any issue" bit. If a ticket checker noticed that you were using the outward portion several hours after the ticket was sold/printed they might start asking questions. Legally the outward portion is only valid to use if the return portion is completely unused.

Not to mention if you tried this with an e-ticket you are significantly more likely to get into trouble.

 

[BazingaTribe]

Yeah. I've made that mistake before but only once in about ten years' daily commuting. I never got caught out but it's good to know it would be a problem in the future and double check. I no longer commute every day but I still go into the office occasionally and it's probably more likely for me to make a mistake when I don't use the app so frequently.

The problem is that I occasionally stayed in the town I work in overnight because my parents live there and so I bought a single on the day I went to their house and then a single home the following evening. The next day my app would still have a Work Town to Home Town journey recorded in it rather Home Town to Work Town direction. I'm amazed I only made the mistake once.

Not to mention if you tried this with an e-ticket you are significantly more likely to get into trouble.

 

[yorksrob]

Does this mean that there's no cheap day return from London to Brighton ?