Expired rail card, have been warned about going to court - advice

[wpeoirthgb]

Last week I spoke to TPE revenue about an expired railcard (exp. Oct 23). Was a total oversight on my part as I rarely travel and I can't remember the last time it was checked by a member of staff on a train, so I genuinely just forgot. However I'm aware it's my responsibility to keep on top of my railcard, so I own that completely. I've been offered the opportunity to make a comment about the incident.

Unfortunately, this is not my first incident with TPE so I'm concerned they're not going to be as lenient. About a year ago I received a fine for accidentally getting on the wrong train (I thought it was my Grand Central, which was actually delayed, and the TPE I got on was another delayed train from about an hour prior. I was in a rush, another human error. Got off lucky with £50.) But as I mentioned in the subject line I have been told twice now (in person and by letter) that I could be prosecuted.

Does anyone have any advice about how I should go about wording my comment? I'm not trying to get off scot-free, I know I'm going to have to pay something, and I don't want to write a sob story. But I'd like to be as courteous as possible and find the best way forward with this.

 

[Brissle Girl]

In your favour the first incident was likely to be perceived as a mistake, rather than deliberate fare evasion. So I think it is still likely that you will able to negotiate an out of court settlement, if you are cooperative, honest and open with them.

You might want to check your online ticketing account to see how many other times you have travelled with an expired railcard - it’s likely that you will be asked to pay a new fare for all of those in due course.

 

[wpeoirthgb]

Thank you. I did check this a few days ago, and thankfully it's not many journeys and doesn't add up to an eye-watering amount. I know there'll probably be a fine on top, but it's something. Just worried that it's harder to feasibly prove I had no mal-intent.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum.

TPE will write to you in a few weeks time asking for your version of events. I suggest a short, concise reply mentioning the following:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and TfL's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

TPE are generally reasonable to deal with and usually offer an out of court settlement if you co-operate with them. Expect this to cost around £150 plus the fares avoided. I wouldn't expect your previous case with them to have an adverse impact.

Post up a copy of the letter from TPE when it arrives (but do redact any personal details) along with your draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[wpeoirthgb]

Hello,

I am hoping someone can help break down the costs of a fine for me so I understand what it is I'm paying. In October 2023 my railcard expired without my noticing and I travelled on 6 TPE journeys with an expired railcard over a four month period. I was issued an irregularity report in February and received a letter about a week later, to which I replied with the usual and said I was prepared to pay the full price of the journeys I took.

My second letter arrived last week. The fine I have to pay is £799.40, which seems quite a lot for the journeys I took - the most expensive ticket during that period was £26, and that's at full price. I worked out the full price of all the journeys while my railcard was expired and it only came to £103.54, plus I added £150 on top for admin fees, but that's not even half what I'm being asked to pay. Is it a £100 fine per journey, or something like that?

I sent an email asking them to break down the costs of the fine. I also called Customer Services who told me that because I have now technically 'challenged' the fine by emailing the address mentioned in the letter I received, the 21-day deadline to pay has now been paused until they reply. I emailed again to ask if I could have this confirmed in writing, but haven't heard back from either emails. I'm concerned that because they told me to allow 20 working days for them to reply to their email, they won't get back until my deadline has passed. There is no specific phone line for Debt Recovery and Prosecutions either, so I'm quite stuck at the moment.

Is there anything else I can do to help myself? I now only have 14 days to pay and they still haven't replied to my email asking them to break down the costs.

 

[methecooldude]

What were the journeys you did? Bear in mind that TPE won't just look at travels on their own network, but also those of other TOCs where the railcard has been falsely added

 

[Brissle Girl]

It does look steep, unless they have identified other journeys, maybe with other operators (which they are entitled to include). How have you calculated the fares due? Is it using Anytime Single fares for every individual journey taken, as that is very likely what TPE has done.

 

[wpeoirthgb]

It does look steep, unless they have identified other journeys, maybe with other operators (which they are entitled to include). How have you calculated the fares due? Is it using Anytime Single fares for every individual journey taken, as that is very likely what TPE has done.

To calculate I looked through my Trainline history for all the TPE journeys, added back the 1/3 taken off from the railcard and added them all together. Most of my journeys were Advance Singles and a couple of day returns - maybe I ought to recalculate and assume them as expensive as possible, maybe then the fine will make more sense. I also didn't realise they were entitled to include other operators - yes, there are some Grand Central and Northern tickets there as well. How is it they're entitled to do that?

 

[methecooldude]

To calculate I looked through my Trainline history for all the TPE journeys, added back the 1/3 taken off from the railcard and added them all together. Most of my journeys were Advance Singles and a couple of day returns - maybe I ought to recalculate and assume them as expensive as possible, maybe then the fine will make more sense. I also didn't realise they were entitled to include other operators - yes, there are some Grand Central and Northern tickets there as well. How is it they're entitled to do that?

You need to calculate them as Anytime Singles, with returns being classed as 2 singles. Ignore anything you've already paid as it's irrelevant. TOCs do revenue enforcement in a joint effort, any fares recovered by TPE will be given to the relevant TOC.

 

[Brissle Girl]

To calculate I looked through my Trainline history for all the TPE journeys, added back the 1/3 taken off from the railcard and added them all together. Most of my journeys were Advance Singles and a couple of day returns - maybe I ought to recalculate and assume them as expensive as possible, maybe then the fine will make more sense. I also didn't realise they were entitled to include other operators - yes, there are some Grand Central and Northern tickets there as well. How is it they're entitled to do that?

Yes, there can be a huge difference between 1/3rd of a cheap Advance Single for a long distance journey and a full fare Anytime Single, which is how the amount is typically calculated. Your method doesn't result in much jeopardy for the fare dodger if caught, other than the admin fee.

And yes, as @methecooldude says, TPE is entitled to look (and presumably has), across all booking platforms for any journeys on the National Rail network where you have evaded the correct fare.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Calculating what you believe to be the correct value of the "fine" may be a waste of the short period of time available to you.

How is it they're entitled to do that?

It's not a final demand. It's an offer.

When you travelled using a railcard discounted ticket, but without the corresponding railcard, you committed a criminal offence and could be prosecuted. The sum TPE is asking for isn't a fine or the equivalent of a fine. It's an amount for which they will agree not to prosecute you for the offence(s) you've committed. The amount tends to be based on the full, anytime single fares for the all the rail journeys they have decided you probably made without a valid ticket (i.e. a valid railcard), plus an amount to cover their "admin" costs.

Whether the amount TPE have arrived at has been calculated in an approved manner is somewhat secondary to the question you need to answer which is; should I pay this amount, or take my chances in court.

 

[skyhigh]

The train operators have reciprocal agreements with each other to pursue offences that they discover. They are fully permitted to follow up on journeys made with other train companies.

 

[AlterEgo]

Calculating what you believe to be the correct value of the "fine" may be a waste of the short period of time available to you.



It's not a final demand. It's an offer.

When you travelled using a railcard discounted ticket, but without the corresponding railcard, you committed a criminal offence and could be prosecuted. The sum TPE is asking for isn't a fine or the equivalent of a fine. It's an amount for which they will agree not to prosecute you for the offence(s) you've committed. The amount tends to be based on the full, anytime single fares for the all the rail journeys they have decided you probably made without a valid ticket (i.e. a valid railcard), plus an amount to cover their "admin" costs.

To be abundantly clear, TPE can only realistically prosecute for the single Bylaw offence where the OP was caught red handed.

Any auditing of accounts may result in other instances of discount being claimed, but it is not necessarily proof of any offence in and of itself. However, they dangle this as a settlement figure because most people dread the idea of their name being in the Magistrates' Court and receiving a non-recordable Bylaw conviction.

One day someone faced with this sort of demand will send the company a cheque for simply the full fare due on only the day they were stopped and nothing else, and we will see if they accept it. But I rather think that day isn't going to be today!

 

[Haywain]

I also called Customer Services who told me that because I have now technically 'challenged' the fine by emailing the address mentioned in the letter I received, the 21-day deadline to pay has now been paused until they reply.

That would only apply if you had been issued with a Penalty Fare, but that wasn't what happened.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

To be abundantly clear, TPE can only realistically prosecute for the single Bylaw offence where the OP was caught red handed.

Train companies are also well aware that the price most people are prepared to pay to avoid that single conviction is far, far higher than the financial loss the company can show that one offence actually cost them. So we see the trawls of purchase histories and the rest as a faux justification for the settlement offer.

 

[kkong]

I worked out the full price of all the journeys while my railcard was expired and it only came to £103.54

That doesn't sound right, because all ticket prices are a multiple of 5 pence.

 

[AlterEgo]

That doesn't sound right, because all ticket prices are a multiple of 5 pence.

They are trying to manually work out 34% discounts, which are not evenly or exactly applied in the database.