Expired railcard

[helpscared]

Hi all,

Aware this is a common issue and I have raked through the threads on here but I got caught today with an expired railcard coming back to Oxford and did not realise it had expired at the end of September. I was directed to a person with a clipboard and a body camera who said the caution notice thing and took my details down, saying I would receive a letter. He asked me whether I had travelled anywhere else since it expired and I had travelled from Oxford to Southampton yesterday and from Oxford to Bath since. As there are multiple journeys I am concerned about prosecution, especially since he had a body cam on and said the caution. I am worried as my work requires a DBS and I will be so annoyed at myself if i get a criminal record for a stupid mistake. Does anyone know how long crosscountry/GWR takes to send these letters? And how much will I have to pay if it is an out of court settlement? The total cost of my journeys is about £80.

Thank you!

 

[Brissle Girl]

Others will be along later with more detailed advice, but I’d say from the situation you describe you are very likely to be able to negotiate an out of court settlement. It might cost you a bit but obviously preferable to a conviction.

The only caveat is whether there are any other circumstances that might lead them to steer towards a prosecution, the most obvious one being that you have previously been drawn to the railway’s attention for being found without a correct ticket.

Have you now renewed your railcard? That’s a good move as you can mention that if and when you get a letter asking for your side of the story, as is quite likely unfortunately.

 

[Gloster]

For the moment there is nothing that you can do other than to wait for the letter, which normally seems to take between two and six weeks to arrive, but can take longer. I presume that you gave your correct name and address, and will ensure that if you move your post will be promptly forwarded to you. Once you receive the letter you can post it on this thread with all identifying details (name, address, reference numbers, etc.) obscured; when it arrives you should act promptly as you normally have between seven and twenty-one days to reply.

I am not an expert, but if there are no complicating factors, as mentioned above, I would think that you have a reasonable chance of getting an out-of-court settlement. The cost is likely to be the full Anytime Single fare for each journey that the railway identifies as being made at the Railcard fare after it expired, with no allowance being made for what you have paid, plus around £150 for their costs, but it could be more.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We are seeing lots of cases like this at the moment. Here's the advice I normally give to people in similar cases to yours:

You receive a letter from the train company or an investigation company acting on their behalf wich will typically take a few weeks arrive although it shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company arewithin their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court if they want to.

We could do with knowing which train company you are dealing with. While I expect both GWR and CrossCountry to settle out of court based on what you've told us reports suggest that GWR are more straihghtforward to deal with than CrossCountry who use a company called Trainsport Investigations Limited to deal with many of their cases.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around £150 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[helpscared]

For some reason my old thread is closed, so I will copy and paste my initial post here:

""""Hi all,

Aware this is a common issue and I have raked through the threads on here but I got caught today with an expired railcard coming back to Oxford and did not realise it had expired at the end of September. I was directed to a person with a clipboard and a body camera who said the caution notice thing and took my details down, saying I would receive a letter. He asked me whether I had travelled anywhere else since it expired and I had travelled from Oxford to Southampton yesterday and from Oxford to Bath since. As there are multiple journeys I am concerned about prosecution, especially since he had a body cam on and said the caution. I am worried as my work requires a DBS and I will be so annoyed at myself if i get a criminal record for a stupid mistake. Does anyone know how long crosscountry/GWR takes to send these letters? And how much will I have to pay if it is an out of court settlement? The total cost of my journeys is about £80.

Thank you!""""

I have since received a mitigation letter (dated 18th April 2024) from Chiltern, essentially alluding to the fact that there is more offences than I let on (data access request etc..) I have attached the letter. I have written a draft response, giving evidence of all my railcards in the past (as I am thinking they may be alluding to that) with my email receipts attached, as well as combed through all my purchase history (some not through my trainline account) and ensured there are no other tickets except the 3 I admitted to on the day which are incorrectly discounted. Is there anything I am missing/is my response okay? Thank you so much!!




"Dear ----,

I received your letter on the 23rd April 2024. I wish to provide an apology and some further details for mitigation. At the time of the report, I offered to pay the full fare and a railcard on the spot, as it was not my intention to defraud the rail company. My making 3 journeys between the dates 8th-22nd October without a railcard was a mistake for which I am very sorry for, and to prove my goodwill I bought a new railcard as soon as I had finished speaking with the rail officer (see receipt attached).

I have used railcards many times in the past, and have provided my email receipts of these purchases with the dates of them as follows:

24/9/2017-23/9/2018
1/10/2018-30/9/2019
1/9/2021-31/8/2022
30/9/2022-29/9/2023
22/10/2023-current

I have cross-referenced with all the tickets I have bought in the past and all of these are either Adult tickets with no discount or are discounted covered by the railcards valid during those time periods except the 3 journeys I made your officer aware of:

Oxford to Bath Spa Sunday 8th October 2023, £16
Oxford to Southampton Central Saturday 21st October 2023, £28.10
Southampton Airport Pathway to Oxford Sunday 22nd October, £15.10

As you can see, with the last railcard it had expired only a few days prior to my first journey, hopefully this shows it was a mistake.

To further prove my intent to make up for this mistake, I am of course willing to pay the full price for the journeys I was without a ticket for, and for any admin costs incurred in this process.

I fully intend to check my railcard every time I book my train tickets and will never make this mistake again.

Kind regards,
My Name"

 

[ikcdab]

saying "to prove my goodwill I bought a new railcard" is rather odd. Its not really goodwill to make sure you have a legally valid ticket - sounds like you are doing them a favour by buying a railcard. Better to say "to prove my intent, I bought a new railcard"

 

[furlong]

Today is the 24th April. You were stopped on the 22nd October. If they intended to prosecute they had to already have told the court about this - within 6 months. Prosecution for fraud is not subject to that limit but the reality is that doesn't cover what you describe as "a stupid mistake". So the good news is it seems they aren't going to be prosecuting you - they've run out of time to do that. They can still ask a civil court to order you to pay them money you owe them for all the journeys, so this doesn't really change the way you should respond. A letter like that looks basically sound - others might suggest small improvements.

 

[helpscared]

Thank you guys for your thoughts! I knew the goodwill thing didn't look right so have changed it now, along with an indication of why i didn't have a railcard for the 1ish year gap. I am trying to make it clear I am a regular railcard user and this was a genuine mistake. I am a bit freaked out about the data access bit in their letter but I think that's because when I was interviewed under caution I said yes i have now realised I did this a couple times in the recent past (as is clear from the trainline records) so hopefully that just means they went on the trainline to investigate further?

Here is my updated draft:
"Dear ___,

I received your letter on the 23rd April 24. I wish to provide an apology and some further details for mitigation. At the time of the report, I offered to pay the full fare and purchase a new railcard on the spot, as it was not my intention to defraud the rail company. My making 3 journeys between the dates 8th-22nd October 2023 without a railcard was a mistake for which I am very sorry for, and to prove my good intentions I bought a new railcard as soon as I had finished speaking with the rail officer (see receipt attached).

I have used the 1 year 16-25 railcards many times in the past, and have provided my email receipts of these purchases with the dates of them as follows:

24/9/2017-23/9/2018
1/10/2018-30/9/2019
(working from home due to covid pandemic)
1/9/2021-31/8/2022
30/9/2022-29/9/2023
22/10/2023-current

I have cross-referenced with all the tickets I have bought in the past and all of these are either Adult tickets with no discount (between the dates of 1/10/2019 and 1/9/2021, on two occasions) or are discounted covered by the railcards valid during the time periods listed above except the 3 journeys I made your officer aware of:

Oxford to Bath Spa Sunday 8th October 2023, £16
Oxford to Southampton Central Saturday 21st October 2023, £28.10
Southampton Airport Pathway to Oxford Sunday 22nd October, £15.10

As you can see, with the last railcard it had expired only a few days prior to my first journey, hopefully this shows it was a genuine mistake.

To further prove my intent to make up for this mistake, I am of course willing to pay the full price for the journeys I was without a ticket for, and for any admin costs incurred in this process.

I fully intend to check my railcard every time I book my train tickets and will never make this mistake again.

Kind regards,
My name "

I will be sending this off tomorrow! If anyone else has any thoughts I'd be very grateful as I cannot afford a solicitor.

Thank you!!

 

[Blinkbonny]

Sounds fine to me. I think you should be ok, albeit a little poorer!

Shame its Chiltern and not GWR. You might have to write them a second again, that being their usual way of doing things!

But as been pointed out above the clock is ticking on the time they have left to prosecute, so it's in their interests to settle quickly.

Good luck.

 

[helpscared]

Hi all, I sent my letter and they have now asked for reasons I have refunded tickets in the past? This is confusing. There are 7 they are asking about, most of which are because I did one leg of a journey on the train and the other in a car. There is a couple in 2022 which I don't remember why I refunded them or whether I did do the journey. Would they have CCTV? Please advise, I feel so silly and will be ensuring I have the right ticket every time from now on!

 

[Haywain]

because I did one leg of a journey on the train and the other in a car.

In these cases did you refund the full return ticket?

 

[helpscared]

In these cases did you refund the full return ticket?

Nope, usually get two singles but I can see that if I go one way on the train then have a ticket for the other way and refund it it could look suspicious. I am wondering if they are maybe just fishing for something else so they can prosecute?

 

[Haywain]

Nope, usually get two singles but I can see that if I go one way on the train then have a ticket for the other way and refund it it could look suspicious. I am wondering if they are maybe just fishing for something else so they can prosecute?

They are looking to recover money that they should have received but haven't, for one reason or another. In the case of these refunds, if you can see how it looks you can understand what they see. Some will say it is fishing, but that isn't going to help you. All you can do at this point is to write and explain the circumstances of the refunds that they are finding suspicious.

 

[AlterEgo]

Nope, usually get two singles but I can see that if I go one way on the train then have a ticket for the other way and refund it it could look suspicious. I am wondering if they are maybe just fishing for something else so they can prosecute?

They would be looking to recover any fares via a settlement rather than via court.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all, I sent my letter and they have now asked for reasons I have refunded tickets in the past? This is confusing. There are 7 they are asking about, most of which are because I did one leg of a journey on the train and the other in a car. There is a couple in 2022 which I don't remember why I refunded them or whether I did do the journey. Would they have CCTV? Please advise, I feel so silly and will be ensuring I have the right ticket every time from now on!

They won't be checking CCTV to find you (esp if you were not even on the train because you changed plan and went by car)

We are seeing more cases whereby people who come to the railways attention for one ,matter then get their purchasing and refund records checked via IT systems - so this is what has presumably happened here since the refunds are nothing to do with your oversight about not renewing your Railcard.

If you know you had lifts on certain dates you need to tell them and set that out (it won't come to court on this I'm sure but in theory you could have to provide a witness eg the driver prepared to go to court and state they gave you a lift - and lying to a court is a no no.... but like I say the chances of it coming to that are very slim, but that is not a reason to lie and hope to get away with it.

If you have no records on the trips in 2022 as it is some time ago, you will probably have to say that you 'apologise but no longer have records from that far back to be able to give them the precise reason for the refund'. Puts the onus back on them to accuse you of a false/fraudulent refund claim and seek money from you.

I'm guessing at the end of the day you would know if you have ever made a refund claim yet took the journey by train and thus were not entitled to a refund (this is people who travel, don't get ticket checked or scanned at barriers or on board and then claim a refund to which they are not entitled to - which seems to have been a growing area of ticket fraud / evasion that the Railway have increasingly started to look into and get on top of).

 

[AlterEgo]

I’ve just realised something @furlong pointed out earlier. The company is now out of time to bring any prosecution for the offence on 22 October 2023. They had their six months, and didn’t move forward with laying papers before the court.

I would cease corresponding with them further. They likely have no firm evidence of any refund fraud, but only you will know if you did it or not.

Either way, corresponding with them with such vague excuses is not likely to be in your interests.

 

[fandroid]

It's possible that Chiltern might threaten civil court action to recover the unpaid fares. The OP admitted to 3 instances to the RPI, so they would have evidence to back up a claim for those. I assume that the time limit for civil cases is a lot longer than that for byelaw prosecutions..

I'm also conscious that the OP might feel very uncomfortable just maintaining silence from here on.

 

[WesternLancer]

It's possible that Chiltern might threaten civil court action to recover the unpaid fares. The OP admitted to 3 instances to the RPI, so they would have evidence to back up a claim for those. I assume that the time limit for civil cases is a lot longer than that for byelaw prosecutions..

I'm also conscious that the OP might feel very uncomfortable just maintaining silence from here on.

If confident of the knowledge that the railway are 'out of time' on this one would it be feasible/wide to reply and say 'please let me have your evidence of wrongdoing in relation to the occasions listed'? - written/phrased in polite terms

 

[helpscared]

Thanks all. They have asked me to say the reason for refunding 7 journeys in the past, and I hold my hands up and say some of these are likely to have been refunds I was not entitled for (aka I did make the journey). I don't know which of these they are so I will fess up to all of them. I was stupid and naive and poor and I will obviously not do this again. At this point I think honesty is the best policy so I will explain this, as the exact wording of their reply was as follows:

"Please find attached a spreadsheet containing your ticket purchasing history for you to complete. A column has been added for your comments.

There are a number of journeys, highlighted in blue where we believe you may have claimed a refund you were not entitled to. Please confirm the circumstances of you claiming the refunds in the comments section. Please be advised you should only claim a refund if you have been unable to make the journey.

If you engage in this process, it may be possible for you to settle this matter via an out of court disposal.

We are authorised to deal with your case by way of an administrative disposal, but a prerequisite of dealing with this matter in this manner is that you take responsibility for all the offences committed, honesty is paramount if we are to offer you this option."

It seems as though they think I have refunded incorrectly and are still willing to settle out of court, and have heavily implied I need to be honest for this so this is what I am intending to do.

However, most of these journeys are on GWR trains and I am in conversation with the ECFU from Chiltern - if I pay compensation as part of a settlement to them then is there a chance they will send my details to the other companies who may then come after me too? Or is the fact they have got all this from trainline mean they are taking sole responsibility for my punishment?

Thank you all again, I am so so grateful.

 

[AlterEgo]

We are authorised to deal with your case by way of an administrative disposal, but a prerequisite of dealing with this matter in this manner is that you take responsibility for all the offences committed, honesty is paramount if we are to offer you this option."

It seems as though they think I have refunded incorrectly and are still willing to settle out of court, and have heavily implied I need to be honest for this so this is what I am intending to do.

Were these paper tickets or etickets?

 

[Titfield]

Thanks all. They have asked me to say the reason for refunding 7 journeys in the past, and I hold my hands up and say some of these are likely to have been refunds I was not entitled for (aka I did make the journey). I don't know which of these they are so I will fess up to all of them. I was stupid and naive and poor and I will obviously not do this again. At this point I think honesty is the best policy so I will explain this, as the exact wording of their reply was as follows:

"Please find attached a spreadsheet containing your ticket purchasing history for you to complete. A column has been added for your comments.

There are a number of journeys, highlighted in blue where we believe you may have claimed a refund you were not entitled to. Please confirm the circumstances of you claiming the refunds in the comments section. Please be advised you should only claim a refund if you have been unable to make the journey.

If you engage in this process, it may be possible for you to settle this matter via an out of court disposal.

We are authorised to deal with your case by way of an administrative disposal, but a prerequisite of dealing with this matter in this manner is that you take responsibility for all the offences committed, honesty is paramount if we are to offer you this option."

It seems as though they think I have refunded incorrectly and are still willing to settle out of court, and have heavily implied I need to be honest for this so this is what I am intending to do.

However, most of these journeys are on GWR trains and I am in conversation with the ECFU from Chiltern - if I pay compensation as part of a settlement to them then is there a chance they will send my details to the other companies who may then come after me too? Or is the fact they have got all this from trainline mean they are taking sole responsibility for my punishment?

Thank you all again, I am so so grateful.

Chiltern will be dealing with all the "offences." You will not be pursued by any other TOC for these offences.

 

[helpscared]

Were these paper tickets or etickets?

E-tickets, there is a solid paper trail basically.

Chiltern will be dealing with all the "offences." You will not be pursued by any other TOC for these offences.

Great that's good news!

One thing which I am freaking a little out is whether they have grounds for the fraud act. However, they did not mention it in their initial letter and they clearly had this ready and waiting to go so I hope as long as I am transparent it will not suddenly make this more serious.

I have drafted a response now, I have found evidence I did not make 2 of the journeys, 2 of the ones they also added are not showing as requested for refund in my bank statement, or the trainline account, or in my emails so hopefully this was their mistake. This leaves 3 I cannot account for. Please see below:

"Dear Economic Fraud and Crime Unit,

I have filled in the sheet with my best knowledge of why I refunded tickets, and will give more evidence and detail below.

My refund for 29/1/2022 was because I tested positive on a COVID-19 lateral flow test before leaving for my journey, hence I did not make it. Please find attached my subsequent results for the test I did that same day and for a test in Oxford the next day, showing I did not travel as I stayed home.

I am confused about the journeys on the 6th July:

NUMBER

NUMBER

On my Trainline account it says my journey from Oxford to Cardiff central was not refunded and I cannot find evidence of my request on my bank statements or emails (see attached).

That day I did travel from Oxford to Cardiff central on the train and didn’t request a refund as I recall.

Please find the travel history of my account attached showing the trip as not refunded.

On the planned return journey from Cardiff to Yatton on 6th July, I recall we had some problems with delayed trains. I therefore bought a new ticket from Cardiff to Bristol Parkway instead (completing my journey to my boyfriend’s house by Taxi, receipt attached) and then requested a refund for the trip Cardiff Central to Yatton as I made my journey the other route (see also attached).

For journey: NUMBER, the data show I refunded at 7pm on 2/7/23, 1 minute after purchasing a new ticket to Oxford departing from Bristol Parkway instead. I then travelled to Bristol Parkway station by car. This change was due to a cancelled train (see email attached). I do not know why I refunded the NUMBER.

In terms of the 3 remaining, some are genuine because I live in Oxford and my partner lives between Bristol and Yatton so sometimes he would offer me a lift instead of getting the train there or back. This would be why I have only made one leg of the journey on several occasions and refunded my ticket going the other way as I did not get the train.

In the interests of full transparency however, I have previously refunded tickets during this timeframe when I did make the journey. This cannot be excused by the cost of living crisis but that was my motivation. I have since seen the error of my ways and understand this is not only illegal but represents a serious loss of revenue for the rail companies.

However, I do not have the details available to me of which occasions these were, so in the interests of honesty and making up for lost revenue I am going to say it is possible that one or more of these are refunds I was not entitled for. This includes the 3 journeys between Oxford and Yatton/Bristol:

NUMBER

NUMBER

NUMBER

Again I understand the severity of this and am hoping that through my honesty and sincere regret, that we can settle this dispute.

I can honestly say I will never refund a used ticket or travel without a valid one again, this process has really opened my eyes to the severity of these offences. Please note none of these refunds are from the last 6 months - I have since educated myself on the conditions of carriage and the severity of breaching them.

I am deeply sorry for the potential 5 trips I erroneously refunded (if a refund was indeed requested for NUMBER and NUMBER), and am more than willing to cooperate and compensate for this in the form of a settlement.

Warm regards,
My name"

 

[30907]

Even if they had mentioned the Fraud Act (which they haven't) it's very rare for train companies to use it in our experience. "Economic Crime and Fraud" serves to remind people that fare evasion is a serious matter.

I would suggest you reply using the proforma you were sent, keeping detail on it as brief as possible, where you believe the refund was legitimate.

You can then send a much shorter covering letter, apologising for your error with the expired railcard and your wrongful claim to refunds, but not making excuses.

 

[helpscared]

Even if they had mentioned the Fraud Act (which they haven't) it's very rare for train companies to use it in our experience. "Economic Crime and Fraud" serves to remind people that fare evasion is a serious matter.

I would suggest you reply using the proforma you were sent, keeping detail on it as brief as possible, where you believe the refund was legitimate.

You can then send a much shorter covering letter, apologising for your error with the expired railcard and your wrongful claim to refunds, but not making excuses.

Thank you, that makes me feel a little better. Do you think my letter is too long then? I wanted to provide all the evidence I could for the legitimate refunds, as I do not want to be accused of wrongly refunding all of them.

Okay thanks all. I sent off that email on Monday and got a reply today (agonising 2 days!)

They have offered me a settlement of £522, which I am trying to pay but am having some issues with IRCAS.. no helpline number too so hopefully they will get back to my email soon.

This is a little higher than I thought, as I was expecting around 300-400 but will of course pay it. Perhaps there were more admin costs incurred or something.

They stated as it is my first offence I was offered this option. Hope this helps anyone in a similar situation.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you, that makes me feel a little better. Do you think my letter is too long then? I wanted to provide all the evidence I could for the legitimate refunds, as I do not want to be accused of wrongly refunding all of them.

Okay thanks all. I sent off that email on Monday and got a reply today (agonising 2 days!)

They have offered me a settlement of £522, which I am trying to pay but am having some issues with IRCAS.. no helpline number too so hopefully they will get back to my email soon.

This is a little higher than I thought, as I was expecting around 300-400 but will of course pay it. Perhaps there were more admin costs incurred or something.

They stated as it is my first offence I was offered this option. Hope this helps anyone in a similar situation.

I think people do ask for breakdowns of how they have arrived at the sum they ask for which I suspect if politely done does not cause concern there end