Expired Railcards

[Mick Evans]

I just feel sorry for my daughter. She's crying her eyes out knowing she made a mistake. Oh the joys of being an 20year old student.

 

[SteveM70]

I just feel sorry for my daughter. She's crying her eyes out knowing she made a mistake. Oh the joys of being an 20year old student.

Everyone makes mistakes, especially when they're younger. God knows I did. I guess the key is to make sure she learns from it - so if she has bought a new railcard, get her to put a reminder in her phone / in her diary / on the fridge door / tattooed on the inside of her eyelids to avoid getting caught out again in a year's time

 

[Mick Evans]

Everyone makes mistakes, especially when they're younger. God knows I did. I guess the key is to make sure she learns from it - so if she has bought a new railcard, get her to put a reminder in her phone / in her diary / on the fridge door / tattooed on the inside of her eyelids to avoid getting caught out again in a year's time

We have. Just annoyed that she received no reminders. My wife bought the Railcard and she never received any notifications about it expiring.

 

[island]

I just feel sorry for my daughter. She's crying her eyes out knowing she made a mistake. Oh the joys of being an 20year old student.

You will understand that to the railway skipping a fare once might look like a mistake; eight times looks a lot different.

Fortunately your daughter has been offered the opportunity to resolve the matter by paying a settlement, and I would very strongly recommend this be paid to avoid matters being taken further.

 

[Mick Evans]

You will understand that to the railway skipping a fare once might look like a mistake; eight times looks a lot different.

Fortunately your daughter has been offered the opportunity to resolve the matter by paying a settlement, and I would very strongly recommend this be paid to avoid matters being taken further.

It's not a case of skipping the fare . It's the fact we had no idea the Railcard had expired. I just can't see How they are allowed to get away with not sending notifications?
Or maybe they are still living in the 80s

 

[Gloster]

The question of whether or not the seller of the railcard should send a reminder is a subject that often leads to (ultimately futile) debate on this forum. However, it is a fact that they don’t (*) and, as with so many things, it is the purchaser’s responsibility to see that all is in order. And, as said above, this is a strict liability offence like speeding: there is no need to prove any intent to avoid the fare, merely that the appropriate fare was not paid.

* - Or at least some sellers don’t.

 

[ianBR]

The Trainline claims it sends an email when your card needs renewing but I definetly did not receive one and they did not bother replying to my complaint about this

They also don’t display any warning on the homepage of their app. You have to remember to click through about five menus to get to the right place

The reality is anyone with an expired railcard is very likely to be caught at some point either through onboard ticket checks, or at the many stations (eg Blackfriars) that force all railcards to go to the manual gate.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Not that I use Trainline, but I wonder if junk marketing means an important reminder is missed by some. That’s nearly happened to me with another site (not travel related).

It probably doesn’t help either when the railcard is purchased by a third party, as in this case, rather than the person using it, so any reminders go to the wrong person.

Ultimately though, every railcard I’ve had all my life, from Student (as was), through Family, Two Together, and now Senior, I’ve had engrained in my mind the renewal date, probably helped by it being a physical card. I am mocked by my family for not having an electronic card now, but for me the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

 

[island]

It's not a case of skipping the fare .

I’m afraid it is. A Railcard discounted ticket is not valid without an in-date Railcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for posting the letter. This is an out of court settlement offer, which if she has indeed travelled 8 times is probably best paid; Court would almost certainly cost more.

It's easily done. Indeed I've done it myself, years ago. Fortunately it was a booking office that noticed rather than an RPI so I just had to renew it.

Just a life lesson, I guess. My habit now is to always get out my Railcard and check the expiry date actively before passing the ticket barrier.

 

[Krokodil]

SWR may be open to negotiation. Posters on previous threads involving them have managed to arrange face-to-face meetings with their investigators.

 

[jon0844]

It's not a case of skipping the fare . It's the fact we had no idea the Railcard had expired. I just can't see How they are allowed to get away with not sending notifications?
Or maybe they are still living in the 80s

If your wife bought the railcard, are you positive she didn't get the notification? Could it have gone into a spam folder?

In any case, for anything that needs renewing (including car servicing, MOTs etc) these days you just set up a reminder in your phone calendar. I use Google calendar, so all my phones, tablets, browsers will pop up and warn me of important things. I don't rely on someone else doing it.

 

[Gloster]

Although we haven’t had many of the forum’s experts on this thread (it is holiday time), I will add my voice to those saying that the best thing to do is pay the money. It may be annoying, but that brings the matter to an end without court action or any form of criminal record. Any attempt to negotiate to obtain a lower sum risks the railway withdrawing the offer of the out-of-court settlement and taking the matter to court, where they are almost certain to win, which will cost the OP more and result in a record, albeit a low level one.

As said, I am not an expert.

 

[Turtle]

If your wife bought the railcard, are you positive she didn't get the notification? Could it have gone into a spam folder?

In any case, for anything that needs renewing (including car servicing, MOTs etc) these days you just set up a reminder in your phone calendar. I use Google calendar, so all my phones, tablets, browsers will pop up and warn me of important things. I don't rely on someone else doing it.

I agree with you regarding the personal responsibility aspect and like you I religiously log all relevant dates etc on my smartphone or whatever. However I do feel that the issuers of cards etc should be au fait with the technology of the last quarter century and automatically program reminders to their customers.

 

[Hadders]

SWR may be open to negotiation. Posters on previous threads involving them have managed to arrange face-to-face meetings with their investigators.

I would not advise doing this. Face to face meetings have been requested by SWR, not the individual concerned, and generally involve large scale evasion. We know that 8 trips were made with an expired railcard so the settlement fee reflects this.

On a more general point this is an unfortunate incident. My advice, however unfair it seems, is to pay the settlement to avoid the matter escalating.

There is a wider issue about notification of railcards that are about to expire. There is an expectation among many people that there should be, especially if the railcard is app based. I have some sympathy with this argument. Perhaps this is a discussion for a separate thread if someone wants to start one.

 

[Buzby]

Having never seen a ‘live’ digital Railcard can anyone send a screen grab of where the expiry date is shown? It’s hard to avoid with the physical card, but with digital if it is nested down several layers, there may be a good argument for some changes…..

 

[Haywain]

Having never seen a ‘live’ digital Railcard can anyone send a screen grab of where the expiry date is shown? It’s hard to avoid with the physical card, but with digital if it is nested down several layers, there may be a good argument for some changes…..

A quick Google image search suggests that they contain a photo of the holder, a barcode, and 3 pieces of text information: the name of the holder, the issuer and the expiry date. Whether there are variations on this I don't know.

 

[superkopite]

You aren't; if you (or anyone else) would like to propose any potential system/method of detecting out of date Railcars prior to travel, this would require a new thread in the Speculative Discussion section.

If you buy your Railcard from the Southeastern App, when you book tickets the Railcard discount is automatically applied, however, the Railcard is automatically removed from the account once it expires. Meaning you cannot make this kind of error

 

[MotCO]

If you buy your Railcard from the Southeastern App, when you book tickets the Railcard discount is automatically applied, however the Railcard is removed from the account once it expires.

Which begs the question if they can do it, why can't everyone else?

 

[Llanigraham]

Which begs the question if they can do it, why can't everyone else?

Because there is no central register of ALL Railcards.

 

[superkopite]

Because there is no central register of ALL Railcards.

No, but a lot of people who fall foul of this bought their railcard and tickets from the same app. In that scenario, it is entirely possible to check.

 

[Krokodil]

A quick Google image search suggests that they contain a photo of the holder, a barcode, and 3 pieces of text information: the name of the holder, the issuer and the expiry date. Whether there are variations on this I don't know.

And the home screen of the app (before you press "view railcard" and see the mugshot) has the date too. If you open the app in the first place, you can't miss it.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Which begs the question if they can do it, why can't everyone else?

It does open up other problems though. You might be buying a ticket for someone else & it automatically applies the discount!

 

[richpthomas]

And the home screen of the app (before you press "view railcard" and see the mugshot) has the date too. If you open the app in the first place, you can't miss it.

In addition, expired railcards stay visible in the Railcard app but greyed-out (and shunted to the end of a carousel if you have multiple cards) rather than the default purple. The 'View Railcard' option is replaced with a 'Renew Railcard' button.

I have a current Two Together with my partner plus an expired Two Together with a friend, and it's impossible to miss if the card's expired.

 

[Buzby]

And the home screen of the app (before you press "view railcard" and see the mugshot) has the date too. If you open the app in the first place, you can't miss it.

Faced with this, it kinda weakens the argument that ‘it’s not my fault’. If I’m expecting a discount (whether voucher, code or soap coupons (remember them?) the obligation is always on the user to check - usually to prevent embarrassment.

Trying to shift the blame that ‘nobody told me’ of the expiry when it is stated kinda beggars belief and is really blame-shifting a rather weak argument. If the card has/will expire before the journey then remove the discount. Of course there is an element of Russian roulette, (they’ll never notice!). We’ve not heard many suggesting they used the discount and never got caught - which remains a possibility too!

 

[superkopite]

We’ve not heard many suggesting they used the discount and never got caught - which remains a possibility too!

On the contrary, we here this all the time, including here. The reports we see are rarely people getting caught on their first purchase with an expired railcard, it's normally 3rd, 4th, 5th etc, or 8th as I think was the case here

 

[MotCO]

It does open up other problems though. You might be buying a ticket for someone else & it automatically applies the discount!

You just have to lend them your railcard .

(For the avoidance of doubt, this is not recommended)

 

[_toommm_]

Having never seen a ‘live’ digital Railcard can anyone send a screen grab of where the expiry date is shown? It’s hard to avoid with the physical card, but with digital if it is nested down several layers, there may be a good argument for some changes…..

Here you go:

 

[Buzby]

Here you go:

Many thanks - Expiry date in a pretty obvious position then…! Not even buried away in a darkened corner then

 

[AlterEgo]

Here you go:

View attachment 141455

Is it mandatory to have your railcard picture in a pub with a pint? Haha, class.

But yeah the expiry date is not exactly hidden away, it is in larger font, quite obvious.