Extending the Waterloo and City Line

[Deerfold]

A station at Blackfriars is quite achievable and would make Thameslink more Central London-friendly than either currently or in immediate future.It would be particularly useful outside peak hours when the W&C is not busy.Waterloo is not even connected to Blackfriars by bus anymore since the 76 was diverted by Fleet Street rather than Queen Victoria Street (unnecessarily in my view).

The 381 and RV1 both pass close to the south entrance to Blackfriars station.

 

[Busaholic]

True,but this is at the south end of Blackfriars Bridge and the Underground station and both its platforms lie at the north end.

Actually, and this is a serious suggestion, the W&C's obvious extension should be to Liverpool Street, thus meeting a proven traffic objective as well as being in the right direction geographically. It is truly scandalous (a) that Liverpool Street has no U nderground connections to the south, particularly when Crossrail starts and (b) passegers arriving at Waterloo mainline have so few tube lines into Central London east of Charing Cross, many of these West End places being more conveniently got to by a cross-platform change at Clapham Junction anyway.

Why the Aldwych branch of the Piccadilly Line was never extended under the Thames to Waterloo is lost in the mists of time but it should be the basis of a renewed attempt to connect Waterloo directly with Kings Cross/St Pancras.
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And then on to Shoreditch so that East London line passengers from Dalston Junction etc get a proper City connection, just like when Broad Street was open.

 

[Bald Rick]

The 381 and RV1 both pass close to the south entrance to Blackfriars station.

And it's only a 15 minute walk!
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The Northern Line tunnels between Moorgate and Bank get in the way. Remember that the Northern City Line tunnels are beneath the Northern Line tunnels at Moorgate and Old Street.

Actually, the other way round

 

[Clip]

This picture seems to give a better understanding of Bank itself(I think its correct anyway)

 

[D365]

This picture seems to give a better understanding of Bank itself(I think its correct anyway)

I remember where I saw this picture originally

Don't suppose anyone is after me reiterating my wildest fantasies for a W&C-NCL link-up, are they? Then again, some of the ideas I've seen now seem to conflict with the proposals for Crossrail 2...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

This picture seems to give a better understanding of Bank itself(I think its correct anyway)

Good picture - looking at it, am I right in thinking that it's far quicker to access the DLR from Monument than it is from Bank itself?

 

[Clip]

I remember where I saw this picture originally

.

Yeah its from Skyscraper city but couldnt do the pic thing so just swiped it.

Peter - yes, it is just down the steps and then passageway much much easier than going through bank itself.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Peter - yes, it is just down the steps and then passageway much much easier than going through bank itself.

So from Epsom my quickest way to getting on the DLR is to Victoria then to Monument? Neat...

 

[oversteer]

Won't Waterloo be quicker?

Anyway when you arrive at Monument, ignore the signed route and go down the stairs/escalator to the Northern line - just at the start of the platform there is another staircase down to the DLR platforms..

 

[westcoaster]

Has a subterranean 3d map of London Underground ever been done.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Won't Waterloo be quicker?

Anyway when you arrive at Monument, ignore the signed route and go down the stairs/escalator to the Northern line - just at the start of the platform there is another staircase down to the DLR platforms..

Not if I get one of the fast ones that go non stop Sutton - Clapham Junction, taking into account the walking time at Bank from the Drain??

 

[Busaholic]

So from Epsom my quickest way to getting on the DLR is to Victoria then to Monument? Neat...

Or one stop further to Tower Hill then short walk to Tower Gateway with Tower of London in view rather than underground passages

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes, but I'm asking for quickest rather than prettiest in this case.

 

[jopsuk]

Has a subterranean 3d map of London Underground ever been done.

The detailed 2D map is complex enough!

For such a 3D map to be useful when talking of tube extensions, you'd want want one including all passages, ventilation tunnels and shafts, sewers, water, foundations etc!

 

[12CSVT]

The detailed 2D map is complex enough!

For such a 3D map to be useful when talking of tube extensions, you'd want want one including all passages, ventilation tunnels and shafts, sewers, water, foundations etc!

If this is to scale, the W&C platforms at Bank are further west than Cannon Street station

 

[jopsuk]

Not quite sure. He does for clarity make some changes and all platforms are shown as the same length- obviously the W&C platforms at Bank are half the length of the Central platforms in real life.

 

[DJL]

If this is to scale, the W&C platforms at Bank are further west than Cannon Street station

Given the location of the new wallbrook entrance I think it very likely that the platforms are indeed further west.

 

[swt_passenger]

Given the location of the new wallbrook entrance I think it very likely that the platforms are indeed further west.

Good photos of models and drawings can be found via the London Reconnections article on the Wallbrook St entrance, showing that you are quite right:

http://cdn.londonreconnections.com/2013/Walbrook-Entrance-on-the-model.jpg

Also included is a detailed diagram of the whole setup following the Bank upgrade:

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/fe34ffe0/user_uploads/overview-of-station-improvements-1_1.pdf

The whole article can be found here:

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2013/new-walbrook-entrance-bank/

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I've always thought a rather nice extension would be to run it something like:
Bank
Blackfriars
Waterloo
possibly: new station in vicinity of Horseferry Road
Victoria
Knightsbridge
Royal Albert Hall (new station)
High Street Kensington
Kensington Olympia
Hammersmith

The two advantages are that it would relieve congestion on the Picadilly/District lines (and to a small extent, on the Jubilee line between Waterloo and Green Park - some passengers travelling westwards would use the new line instead), and that it would allow you to completely kill the District Kensington Olympia branch.

A potential problem is the platforms at Waterloo are facing the wrong way, so you'd have a very curvy line there.
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Not on to Edgware or Bushey Heath as well?

And yes, at the other end, I like the idea of Moorgate->Finsbury Park->Highgate->Mill Hill East -> Mill Hill Broadway -> Edgware, though I realize the arrangement of tunnels between Bank and Moorgate probably makes this impossible

 

[jopsuk]

if you were to extend it southwards, you'd also want to extend it northwards, as having a turnback on such as busy line there would not be a good thing operationally (you'd at least want to have a layout like the DLR has, with a headshunt).

 

[Busaholic]

I've always thought a rather nice extension would be to run it something like:
Bank
Blackfriars
Waterloo
possibly: new station in vicinity of Horseferry Road
Victoria
Knightsbridge
Royal Albert Hall (new station)
High Street Kensington
Kensington Olympia
Hammersmith

The two advantages are that it would relieve congestion on the Picadilly/District lines (and to a small extent, on the Jubilee line between Waterloo and Green Park - some passengers travelling westwards would use the new line instead), and that it would allow you to completely kill the District Kensington Olympia branch.

A potential problem is the platforms at Waterloo are facing the wrong way, so you'd have a very curvy line there.
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And yes, at the other end, I like the idea of Moorgate->Finsbury Park->Highgate->Mill Hill East -> Mill Hill Broadway -> Edgware, though I realize the arrangement of tunnels between Bank and Moorgate probably makes this impossible

Like the idea- your Horseferry Road station would complement my idea of a Lambeth Palace station on a thread I established on an alternative to the Northern Line extension to Battersea. Waterloo to Victoria is one of those routes that should have been built decades ago but better late than never.

 

[swt_passenger]

Every extension proposal for the W&C seems to (conveniently?) neglect the basic point that the trains are wedged full today on leaving Waterloo, because the whole rationale for the line was to project the LSWR into the City. The other rail companies in the south carried on over the river, but not the LSWR, they chose to build their own underground link.

Transferring it into LU's operational responsibility didn't ever remove that basic point - it is still used fully as an extension of the route into Waterloo, and needs empty trains at Waterloo to satisfy that requirement.

 

[Busaholic]

Every extension proposal for the W&C seems to (conveniently?) neglect the basic point that the trains are wedged full today on leaving Waterloo, because the whole rationale for the line was to project the LSWR into the City. The other rail companies in the south carried on over the river, but not the LSWR, they chose to build their own underground link.

Transferring it into LU's operational responsibility didn't ever remove that basic point - it is still used fully as an extension of the route into Waterloo, and needs empty trains at Waterloo to satisfy that requirement.

A very good point, but wouldn't negate an intermediate Blackfriars stop.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Every extension proposal for the W&C seems to (conveniently?) neglect the basic point that the trains are wedged full today on leaving Waterloo, because the whole rationale for the line was to project the LSWR into the City. The other rail companies in the south carried on over the river, but not the LSWR, they chose to build their own underground link.

Transferring it into LU's operational responsibility didn't ever remove that basic point - it is still used fully as an extension of the route into Waterloo, and needs empty trains at Waterloo to satisfy that requirement.

Would that still be the case after CR2 is built, since that would presumably reduce the numbers of people coming to Waterloo?

Also, the W&C currently runs much shorter trains than the rest of the underground. Presumably, any serious extension to it would also involve bringing the trains up to normal underground size. (Although the amount of rebuilding required for that would presumably be huge).

 

[jon0844]

A very good point, but wouldn't negate an intermediate Blackfriars stop.

At the busy times if the day, wouldn't it be near off impossible to get on an intermediate stop? It's basically a shuttle back and forth, and works okay because of that. Introduce a stop and you have delays as people try to shuffle off (and indeed delay departure in the first place as they try and stand near the doors) and then loads of people still unable to get on.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are there any areas south of the Thames (to the west) that would benefit from having an Underground? North of the Thames (Bank end) is covered well enough but there isn't the room probably to extend the tunnel that way.

 

[swt_passenger]

Would that still be the case after CR2 is built, since that would presumably reduce the numbers of people coming to Waterloo?

CR2 won't remove any of the long distance passengers, from all the trains that are non-stop inbound from Woking, or from places like Winchester. What you'd possibly find is that any space on the W&C that becomes available is filled by people who currently can't get on it, and are using other alternatives with changes...

 

[Railfan2156]

What about south from Waterloo to Lewisham, calling at:
Bank
Blackfrairs
Waterloo
Lambeth North
Lambeth
Oval
Vauxhall
Oval
Stockwell
Brixton
Crystal Palace West
Crystal Palace
Norwood Junction
Norwood
New Cross South
Deptford

 

[Deerfold]

What about south from Waterloo to Lewisham, calling at:
Bank
Blackfrairs
Waterloo
Lambeth North
Lambeth
Oval
Vauxhall
Oval
Stockwell
Brixton
Crystal Palace West
Crystal Palace
Norwood Junction
Norwood
New Cross South
Deptford

Reversing at Vauxhall?

 

[Abpj17]

There is no space to extend from Bank in any other direction. The underground tends to follow the roads as a significant number of the buildings extend underground in that area for historic reasons usually revolving around gold/cash vaults.

DynamicSpirit's plan is a sensible Waterloo outward extension - particularly a Royal Albert Hall station; it's currently a bit of a trek from the tube!

Not entirely sure a Blackfriars stop would help for reasons several have given up. What needs fixing is buses plugging into Blackfriars again properly. What about a tube line running along the southern embankment that took in Blackfriars - or is this negated by the Jubilee Line?