Extent of London, 'basically London', and the commuter belt

[Kilopylae]

An interesting discussion among friends about the extent of London, as we've got one who describes Slough as "basically London at this point", and two who think Enfield and Hounslow are too far out to qualify. Seem to be two competing instincts at play - a 'maximal' definition of London which includes anywhere that functions as part of the metropolis and a 'minimal' definition which excludes anywhere that has an independent town identity.

Also interesting to think about the extent of the commuter belt. I feel inclined to include Peterborough, but my friend is adamant that it stops well before the Ox-Camb arc.

I tend to think that you're talking about London for as long as you're talking about the contiguous urban mass, out to Hillingdon, but that once its shape assumes a more tentacular quality, you need to use a qualifying adjective like 'basically' for places like Woking and Ascot (this does make me a 'maximalist'). The furthest out I would include as 'basically' London is Maidenhead and Bracknell. Beyond that, the only applicable term is 'commuter belt'.

What are folks' opinions here? - I'm more interested in subjective perceptions than administrative or ONS boundaries, although if these carry weight for posters then they're definitely in scope.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I see London as the area inside the M25, which gives it a pretty "hard border" but includes places that technically aren't like Watford, but not Slough. That said I can see why you'd exclude the low density bits.

Outside of that you've got the Home Counties (basically the ones that border the M25 - Beds, Herts, Bucks, Essex, Berks, Surrey etc). Then you've got the wider London commuter area which is basically the Network SouthEast area minus the long runs to Kings Lynn and Weymouth, which is very close to being synonymous with "the South East".

Slough in many ways might as well be London - it has London buses, and it's as manky as lots of west London, but I wouldn't say it was IN London.

I definitely wouldn't see Bracknell, Woking or Maidenhead as "basically London". They are commuter towns.

 

[Kilopylae]

Then you've got the wider London commuter area which is basically the Network SouthEast area minus the long runs to Kings Lynn and Weymouth

Presumably also excluding the route to Devon!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably also excluding the route to Devon!

Forgot about that. Yes, I'd basically draw the line at either Southampton or Bournemouth, probably the former. Salisbury has London commuters as does Bournemouth, but they are a *bit* far out for it to be a majority pursuit. Newbury is, but probably not Hungerford (though again there are some). Swindon half and half I guess. Oxford yes. Aylesbury and MK yes, including Northampton to an extent. Bedford yes but Market Ketteringborough debatably. Etc.

Generally you might go further out on lines with faster trains, e.g. HS1 will bring in most of Kent.

 

[nlogax]

While technically outside of the south east, I think Salisbury and Bournemouth are the southwestern extremities of the London commuting zone. Always wondered why NSE went way beyond that. With the additional station calls, strikes, post-Covid working patterns and general expense I'm curious to know what the market for regular commutes on this route looks like now.

Certainly in my time on the south coast if I wanted to read a copy of the Evening Standard I could find usually find one at the Bournemouth end of an NSE fast service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While technically outside of the south east, I think Salisbury and Bournemouth are the southwestern extremities of the London commuting zone. Always wondered why NSE went way beyond that.

Probably simply because there wouldn't be much point in running a separate fast Waterloo-Weymouth service in addition to the commuter one. The "outposts" of NSE are all situations where extending a commuter service made a fair bit of sense.

 

[etr221]

My definition of London would be Greater London; 'basically London' a bit beyond London - the M25, the former London Transport Area or whereever Project Oval might go - but it's not a term I'd use; and 'commuter belt' essentially South East England & East of England Regions + Northamptonshire + a few bits beyond (Bournemouth, &c, Salisbury).

As to NSE, I think there were bit that came its way because they were't Inter-City or Regional Railways - both of whom probably had bits on the same basis.

 

[Gloster]

Anywhere that has an all-stops service to the appropriate London terminus. You could possibly include services that skip some of the very close in locations like Queenstown Road or Westbourne Park.

 

[J-2739]

For me, it is just Greater London. Full stop.

If Greater London were to expand, I would include the towns of Watford, Dartford, and Epsom, but until that day comes, they are not London, neither are the other parts within the M25. They are provincial towns with London characteristics.

 

[nlogax]

The "outposts" of NSE are all situations where extending a commuter service made a fair bit of sense.

To me this where NSE felt inconsistent. Exeter and Weymouth were inside NSE while Peterborough and Ipswich / Norwich all fell outside the zone but still had NSE services running from them. Always seemed a bit odd.

Fair to say that Project Oval is all but confirming the 'official' London commuting area now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me this where NSE felt inconsistent. Exeter and Weymouth were inside NSE while Peterborough and Ipswich / Norwich all fell outside the zone but still had NSE services running from them. Always seemed a bit odd.

Fair to say that Project Oval is all but confirming the 'official' London commuting area now.

I'd not agree. MKC, Wolverton, Northampton, Bletchley and Leighton Buzzard, Bicester North, Newbury, Basingstoke etc are substantial commuter towns. It's very much only a subset - an inner commuter area if you like - or perhaps the "might as well be London" spoken of in the first post, though I'd not say Reading or Aylesbury might as well be London, they're distinct towns.

 

[nlogax]

I'd not agree. MKC, Wolverton, Northampton, Bletchley and Leighton Buzzard, Bicester North, Newbury, Basingstoke etc are substantial commuter towns. It's very much only a subset.

Oh, I agree with you there. Oval seems pretty short sighted but I know there's a whole other thread for that.

 

[Mag_seven]

Here is a video on the subject:

 

[Kilopylae]

I'd not agree. MKC, Wolverton, Northampton, Bletchley and Leighton Buzzard, Bicester North, Newbury, Basingstoke etc are substantial commuter towns. It's very much only a subset - an inner commuter area if you like - or perhaps the "might as well be London" spoken of in the first post, though I'd not say Reading or Aylesbury might as well be London, they're distinct towns.

In the case of Northampton, one is reminded of the famed 2010 advertising campaign.

 

[Purple Train]

Slough in many ways might as well be London - it has London buses, and it's as manky as lots of west London, but I wouldn't say it was IN London.

That's a dreadful insult to West London, you ought to be ashamed

There are some places around here that market themselves as being in West London but you won't find me in them! This is firmly Berkshire country - unless you're just north of Sloff and therefore in Buckinghamshire, which isn't London either.

For me, London begins... at the Greater London boundary?! Commuter belt is harder to define, as that depends on the level of suitable transport into London.

"Basically London" (he says, pandering to his Northern heart) is anywhere south of the Watford Gap and east of Swindon.

 

[Sorcerer]

Personally I see London as basically the combined area of Greater London (the 32 London boroughs) and the City of London. I think while there may be other areas served by TfL such as Watford, that shouldn't be a defining factor, because then otherwise we have to extend the same definition to the areas around Liverpool served by Merseyrail, and frankly I am not prepared to call someone from the Wirral a scouser.

 

[MotCO]

Personally I see London as basically the combined area of Greater London (the 32 London boroughs) and the City of London. I think while there may be other areas served by TfL such as Watford, that shouldn't be a defining factor, because then otherwise we have to extend the same definition to the areas around Liverpool served by Merseyrail, and frankly I am not prepared to call someone from the Wirral a scouser.

I agree. Basically anywhere where you can vote for the Mayor. (Do residents of the City of London vote for the London Mayor, or are they barred since they have their own Mayor?)

Although you could probably include Southend since their airport is "London Southend Airport"

 

[Kilopylae]

Although you could probably include Southend since their airport is "London Southend Airport"

London Oxford Airport has entered the chat

 

[Sorcerer]

Oh lordy, airports are probably the worst way to define city boundaries!

 

[Enthusiast]

Personally I see London as basically the combined area of Greater London (the 32 London boroughs) and the City of London.

So, places like this, perhaps:



That is the boundary, looking towards London, between Kent and the London Borough of Bromley. The three cars in the picture are in Greater London.

Although you could probably include Southend since their airport is "London Southend Airport"

And "London" Luton.

 

[Kilopylae]

So, places like this, perhaps:

View attachment 138244

That is the boundary, looking towards London, between Kent and the London Borough of Bromley. The three cars in the picture are in Greater London.

Or the equally surprising result that this is considered to be a natural edge of a city:

 

[PGAT]

I personally think any town that generally has a borough named after it, not in the countryside yet, and is suspiciously close to the Greater London boundary, is “basically London”

This, yet again, would include Epsom and Dartford

 

[BluePenguin]

I don’t think living in a suburban slum near a city counts as being part of that city.

Places such as Hounslow, Enfield, Orpington and Sutton are nowhere near as fashionable or glamorous as Ealing, Stratford, or Camden. They don’t have great transport links or much connection to proper London either, despite being close geopolitical

I strongly believe that Middlesex should have definitely been kept as an area of London, even if it was abolished as a county. It would help us differentiate better

 

[J-2739]

I don’t think living in a suburban slum near a city counts as being part of that city.

Places such as Hounslow, Enfield, Orpington and Sutton are nowhere near as fashionable or glamorous as Ealing, Stratford, or Camden. They don’t have great transport links or much connection to proper London either, despite being close geopolitical

I strongly believe that Middlesex should have definitely been kept as an area of London, even if it was abolished as a county. It would help us differentiate better

Calling Sutton a 'suburban slum' is a bit far, no?

 

[PGAT]

Calling Sutton a 'suburban slum' is a bit far, no?

It’s more of a baby version of Croydon

 

[Bevan Price]

I don’t think living in a suburban slum near a city counts as being part of that city.

Places such as Hounslow, Enfield, Orpington and Sutton are nowhere near as fashionable or glamorous as Ealing, Stratford, or Camden. They don’t have great transport links or much connection to proper London either, despite being close geopolitical

I strongly believe that Middlesex should have definitely been kept as an area of London, even if it was abolished as a county. It would help us differentiate better

Middlesex still exists - but only as a county cricket team.
Personally I used to think there was a vast, if poorly defined area that I viewed as "almost London". That stretched roughly from Stevenage & Milton Keynes in the North, Southend in the East, Redhill in the South, and somewhere near Woking / Maidenhead in the West.

 

[J-2739]

It’s more of a baby version of Croydon

Ouch! I've always had Sutton down as a quaint suburban commuter town with very good schools nearby, so that's interesting to hear.

 

[nlogax]

Places such as Hounslow, Enfield, Orpington and Sutton are nowhere near as fashionable or glamorous as Ealing, Stratford, or Camden.

 

[MotCO]

Places such as Hounslow, Enfield, Orpington and Sutton are nowhere near as fashionable or glamorous as Ealing, Stratford, or Camden. They don’t have great transport links or much connection to proper London either, despite being close geopolitical

Orpington doesn't have good transport links to London? Mainline trains to Charing Cross take less than 30 minutes!

 

[Jimini]

Call me old school (and I know it's wildly inaccurate these days), but being born and bred in West London, it's always been a postcode thing for me and my old mates. W6 is the place to be (and I was born in Charing X hospital / grew up in Hammersmith).

Many a comedy conversation with other mates -- most notably one who lived in Harold Wood for quite a while. Yeah it's in the "London Borough of Havering", but it's got a RM postcode and an 01708 STD code! London my arse...