Fake Ticket Inspectors? ATOC Staff Travel

[Morrissey20202]

My daughter has been stopped on a train using her dependent’s ATOC Staff Travel Card without a date in the box. She apologised as she said she was in a rush and forgot to do it. The ticket inspector and his mate were dressed in casual clothes and not uniforms. They interviewed her until she was in tears then told her she would lose her travel card as well as the rest of the family and face a fine. They didn’t put an X through the date box but made her fill the one she was going to.
These guys are approaching other people and acting weird. My daughters had a panic attack subsequent to this and I’m considering taking this further. One of these ‘inspectors’ has given her his badge number but no paperwork. Does a T number sound correct?

 

[Kilopylae]

- Which train company was this?
- What do you mean by 'interviewed her' and 'acting weird'?

 

[scrapy]

Was your daughter being in tears and subsequent panic attack down to the behaviour of the inspectors or down to the realisation she has done something wrong and there are possible consequences? You don't actually specify what the inspectors did wrong other than 'acted weird' which is probably a matter of opinion. They are probably entitled to interview your daughter if they suspect an irregularity. They seem to have let her off on this occasion they could have reported her, by allowing her to date the box probably means this will go no further.

If a revenue inspector is reporting an irregularity they shouldn't have asked her to validate the ticket or sold a ticket (not the case here I know) as by doing this means prosecution if difficult as the passenger now has a valid ticket.

It would probably help if you specify which TOC so those in the know could give opinions on whether plain clothes operations are the norm.

 

[Morrissey20202]

The RPI took my daughters details, didn’t make her enter a date into the box and didn’t give her a copy of the A4 form that they filled out. They behaved inappropriately in my opinion in their language to my daughter mocking her that she managed to get on the train with her suitcases but couldn’t find a pen. It doesn’t sound professional at all to me; they saw she was in distress. Chiltern Trains.

She thought they were acting weird in the way they were speaking to people. She said it didn’t sound like they were real staff. One showed her a silver badge with a number on it. She always fills in her dates, it’s been drummed into her for years. She was just in a rush.

She’s just phoned me and told me they didn't ask her to fill in the box.

 

[theironroad]

Plebty of revenue inspectors out there in plain clothes for fraud prevention and within their rights to stop her. They should identify themselves and provide ID.

They can require her to fill in a box for the date she was travelling (the 'i forgot' date ) and also then put. X through the next box. They could also withdraw the card and issue a receipt.

I don't know what you're final aim is and yes, anyone should be respected and treated professionally when being questioned, but being questioned for what the railway consider ticket fraud isn't always going to be a polite chat.

'Staff Travel Irregularities' are taken very seriously and could end up in court.

If you are the staff member that the staff travel facilities derive from , I'd tread very carefully before going in all guns blazing as you could well end in a disciplinary process by your employer as you are responsible for dependents use of travel.

I realise it's not what you might want to hear, but go carefully.

 

[philthetube]

Makes me wonder if they did not really want to get a staff member in trouble so decided to put the fear of God into her instead.

 

[221129]

The last 2 posts hit the nail on the head imo. Cant see anything in the OP to suggest any wrongdoing from the RP staff.

 

[Haywain]

‘Staff Travel Irregularities' are taken very seriously and could end up in court.

However, they are far more likely to end up in the disciplinary process with potential penalties rather more severe than in court.

 

[185143]

Wasn't there a thread relatively recently about someone being contacted by someone in Germany claiming to be from Chiltern regarding a travel irregularity and was concerned it was a scam?

 

[Haywain]

Wasn't there a thread relatively recently about someone being contacted by someone in Germany claiming to be from Chiltern regarding a travel irregularity and was concerned it was a scam?

Not really the same as being spoken to on a train about a genuine ticket irregularity, is it?

 

[MikeWh]

Wasn't there a thread relatively recently about someone being contacted by someone in Germany claiming to be from Chiltern regarding a travel irregularity and was concerned it was a scam?

I think it became clear that that post was a wind-up which is why it's been deleted.

 

[matt_world2004]

If there was a fake ticket inspection it would be for the following reasons

1. To extort money from passengers without tickets
2. To skim contactless cards (May not apply on all Chiltern services)

An fake ticket inspector would almost certainly not know that a undated staff travelcard is invalid and they would not want to draw attention to themselves (particularly to someone presenting a staff travel card) so it is likely they were not fake.

 

[185143]

I think it became clear that that post was a wind-up which is why it's been deleted.

Ah. Missed that bit.

In which case, ignore.

 

[Morrissey20202]

There's two things I question here:
Professional behaviour: At one point there were two RPI questioning and making jokes at my daughter's expense. She's a young woman travelling on her own. We all have our jobs to do but people should be treated with respect.

Procedure: What I don't understand is why they didn't put a X through the box and give her a warning.
Procedure for dealing with Travel Irregularities A. Dating of Staff Travel Cards – Revenue Protection Staff 1. Revenue protection staff are instructed to cancel the first available box on the card and ask the holder to date the next one in the following circumstances: • First attempt to make a free journey without dating a box on the card. • First attempt to make a free journey with an incorrectly dated box on the card.

That gives a clear process to be taken; now she's going to be waiting for a letter to come in the post (or is it?) for an interview. She's been told she may lose her travel cards as well as the rest of her family.
They took a statement from her that she signed. Why wasn't she given a copy?

I guess things have changed since I checked tickets but we always followed a procedure.

 

[Chriso]

undercover Chiltern rpi’s observing the gates at Marylebone is pretty frequent. I have also seen this in operation during lockdown

 

[philthetube]

There's two things I question here:
Professional behaviour: At one point there were two RPI questioning and making jokes at my daughter's expense. She's a young woman travelling on her own. We all have our jobs to do but people should be treated with respect.

Procedure: What I don't understand is why they didn't put a X through the box and give her a warning.
Procedure for dealing with Travel Irregularities A. Dating of Staff Travel Cards – Revenue Protection Staff 1. Revenue protection staff are instructed to cancel the first available box on the card and ask the holder to date the next one in the following circumstances: • First attempt to make a free journey without dating a box on the card. • First attempt to make a free journey with an incorrectly dated box on the card.

That gives a clear process to be taken; now she's going to be waiting for a letter to come in the post (or is it?) for an interview. She's been told she may lose her travel cards as well as the rest of her family.
They took a statement from her that she signed. Why wasn't she given a copy?

I guess things have changed since I checked tickets but we always followed a procedure.

procedure, why is she not in court and you on a disciplinary, you really do need to be careful, if they have any details of her then you could still get in trouble even if she cannot be prosecuted.

 

[221129]

Why wasn't she given a copy?

Because that isnt how it works.

Professional behaviour: At one point there were two RPI questioning and making jokes at my daughter's expense. She's a young woman travelling on her own. We all have our jobs to do but people should be treated with respect.

I presume you were there then? If not then unfortunately from experience dependants especially can be a little bit conservative with the full truth.

Procedure: What I don't understand is why they didn't put a X through the box and give her a warning.

Because that is by no means a right. The fact they didnt do that sounds like they are letting her off with a bit of a fright rather than booking her properly.

She's been told she may lose her travel cards as well as the rest of her family.

That is very possible in these circumstances. And the employee if still active can face disciplinary proceedings.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[father_jack]

Because that isnt how it works.


I presume you were there then? If not then unfortunately from experience dependants especially can be a little bit conservative with the full truth.


Because that is by no means a right. The fact they didnt do that sounds like they are letting her off with a bit of a fright rather than booking her properly.


That is very possible in these circumstances. And the employee if still active can face disciplinary proceedings.

Be careful what you wish for.

Great post there.

Alas PRIV box dependants are terrible to deal with no matter how much dad or mum might hammer the rules into them, they are often so self entitiled, personally I think the OP will never hear a word again about the matter unless the dependant (inevitably ?) comes to the attention of revenue protection again.

 

[RPI]

As someone who deals with these issues I can say what they RPI'S is correct, other than the alleged discourteous behaviour, but again, this is one side of the story, I'm not sure whether Chiltern RPI'S have body worn video cameras or not? We do and a customer can request any footage that they may be in.

The only thing the RPI'S should have done, but didn't, was withdraw the staff travel pass and issue a receipt for it, unless they took a picture to submit as evidence?

Normally in these circumstances the dependent will face any consequences regarding their staff travel and not the employee, even though RDG can take action if they wish so its by no means a given.

I'm not qualified to give legal advice but by the looks of it there is a clear irregularity, if an out of court/not getting RDG involved settlement is offered I'd snap their hand off for it!

 

[Morrissey20202]

Why is she not in court? Because the travel irregularities procedure is clear. X in the box and next date filled in. I assume this hasn’t changed since 2019.

 

[221129]

Why is she not in court? Because the travel irregularities procedure is clear. X in the box and next date filled in. I assume this hasn’t changed since 2019.

That's not the procedure. It might have been your TOC policy but is definitely not across the board.

 

[RPI]

Condition 5 as above, may be slightly different order or wording on individual passes but ultimately all RDG issued passes have a similar rule.

 

[CyrusWuff]

That's not the procedure. It might have been your TOC policy but is definitely not across the board.

On the contrary, it's Rail Staff Travel policy. The full document is available from the "Where can I go?" page on the RST microsite. The relevant extract is as follows:

1. Revenue protection staff are instructed to cancel the first available box on the card and ask the holder to date the next one in the following circumstances:
   • First attempt to make a free journey without dating a box on the card.
   • First attempt to make a free journey with an incorrectly dated box on the card.
2. Revenue Protection staff are instructed to withdraw a card in the following circumstances:
   • Subsequent attempts to make a free journey without dating a box on the card.
   • An attempt to make a free journey without dating a box and where the allocation of free boxes is exhausted.
   • The date in a box on the card has been altered, overwritten, erased, or tampered with in any way.

 

[WestRiding]

Failure to use 2 digits in each box will be treated as a Travel Irregularity. If you attempt to travel without dating a box, the ticket inspector may cross out the next available box as a penalty and will instruct you to complete the next box following. If the card is wrongly dated the same procedure may be followed. Alteration or overwriting of dates already inserted is not permitted – this includes writing a date in pencil then going over it with pen or erasing it and then re-entering it. This information is clearly printed on the card. Failure to comply will be treated as a Travel Irregularity. Staff Travel Cards are valid from 1 April of one year to 30 June of the following year. New cards are sent out via employers or directly to home addresses towards the end of March each year. If you wish to use boxes from 1 April to 30 June, either the old or the new card can be used (assuming there are unused boxes on the old card). Only the new card can be used from 1 July, i.e. on a card that is expiring on the 30 June you cannot date a box for 30 June and travel on 1 July

(RST)

 

[Wychwood93]

As #24 really:
f. If a Staff Travel Card is being used without a box being dated, Revenue Protection Staff may cancel the next available box and require the holder to date and use the following box.
g. If a card is being used with the wrong date entered, Revenue Protection Staff may cancel the next available box and require the holder to date and use the following box.

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/files/Publications/services/rst/RST_Conditions_of_Issue_and_Use_Sep_2020_v4.pdf

The use of 'may' can be taken in two ways - they 'may' allow you to fill in the box as you were a bit rushed etc. or 'may' as in they are entitled to strike a box out and get you to fill the next box in correctly.

Quite straightforward and no reason for any difference from TOC to TOC, should all be the same.

 

[theironroad]

However, they are far more likely to end up in the disciplinary process with potential penalties rather more severe than in court.

I'd agree that court won't be first option unless there is evidence of regular evasion.

However, I have known a case go straight to court where the allegation was altering a date. The court found in TOC favour and employee iirc lost all travel facilities (not sure how long for) but pretty sure he kept his job in that case.

 

[island]

There's two things I question here:
Professional behaviour: At one point there were two RPI questioning and making jokes at my daughter's expense. She's a young woman travelling on her own. We all have our jobs to do but people should be treated with respect.

In situations like this, there’s three sides to every story, what she said happened, what they said happened, and what actually happened. In many cases behaviour has been described as rude when a neutral observer might instead have referred to it as firm and perhaps telling the other party something which they did not wish to hear. Additionally, we very frequently read stories on the forum where those caught with a travel irregularity start to try and muddy the waters by making allegations of misconduct towards the ticket personnel. This rarely meets with success.

 

[crablab]

How does such a staff travel pass work? Why do you need to write dates into it?

 

[island]

How does such a staff travel pass work? Why do you need to write dates into it?

Certain varieties of staff travel pass give unlimited travel for a certain number of two-day periods over the course of (e.g.) a year.

To commence such a period the pass holder writes the first day of travel in a box.

 

[WestRiding]

Yep. 'May' is the key word. Sounds to me like the staff were Jolly Decent actually, by not striking the box out. Sounds like it was a telling off. Tread carefully if you're going to take it further. I have known of staff, albeit a very long time ago, get dismissed from a company for travel irregularities in relation to Staff Travel.