I don't think working the barriers is too hard. It's just a paper magstrip, and I think you can just copy data from a real ticket, they're not verified online so you can reuse the same data every time.
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Fake tickets?
- Thread starter Howardh
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I don't think working the barriers is too hard. It's just a paper magstrip, and I think you can just copy data from a real ticket, they're not verified online so you can reuse the same data every time.
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Northern Rail recently have had a bunch of perfect quality fake (high value) season tickets being used on their services. Several are still being used today, and one by one, as they travel on another company's services, the fraudsters are slowly being picked up and prosecuted.
The company was eager to see copies of the fake tickets, for clues to what they were looking for. The five staff at the other company involved in withdrawing those passes were all ex-staff who'd been employed by or had problems with Northern.
Northern's requests for information were laughed off. Co-operation between companies is happening less and less nowadays due to mismanagement, the result being a growing number of fakes freely doing the rounds.
The company was eager to see copies of the fake tickets, for clues to what they were looking for. The five staff at the other company involved in withdrawing those passes were all ex-staff who'd been employed by or had problems with Northern.
Northern's requests for information were laughed off. Co-operation between companies is happening less and less nowadays due to mismanagement, the result being a growing number of fakes freely doing the rounds.
zuriblue
Member
The tickets are also printed with partially UV reactive ink and the zugfuhrer has a UV light pen.
I thought something like that, the reason being that most forgers aren't going to bother because the equipment would be pricey (as the magnetic strip is in the middle, rather than at the edge in swipe cards) and would have to maintain the date of validity element of the stripe data. Which would go some way to explaining why barriers might be set to reject "high value" tickets so that they can be checked manually.
Jonny, you potentially just need one. I think they probably need different heads to write to the paper ones, not just something that feeds the strip in the right place, but they can't be that expensive. I would guess the biggest problem would be getting what may well be UK Rail specific parts without ordering 1,000 units.
route:oxford
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It's just a simple read/write head as used in any number of hotel swipe card read/write machines. The data format is probably on a published privatisation/tender document.
Not really. As soon as hell freezes over and ITSO finally gets a nationwide rollout, fake tickets become "not worth the effort".
RJ
Established Member
Nowadays the fraudsters can produce tickets on real stock that look identical to real tickets and are encoded. Regardless, there are still ways of telling whether or not it's fake.
Why do you assume that everyone will be using an ITSO ticket? And if so will you be lamenting the loss of booking offices and jobs across the country just so you can have a smartcard ticket?
I don't tell economics what to do. I don't lament the fall of the textile weaving industry either.
DelayRepay
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Do you think the fraudsters won't find another way? If it's worth their while they will. I remember when Chip and PIN was introduced and some people thought it would be the end of debit card fraud at POS. Fraud reduced because it's not as easy to use a stolen card now, but what we see instead is cards being skimmed and cameras capturing PINs. Some fraudsters are attacking the weakest point, the customer, and conning them into handing over their card and PIN.
These people are not unemployed chancers trying to make a few quid, they are sophisticated criminal groups who will invest in equipment if it's worth their while. Whatever the railway does, they can reduce this problem for a while but they won't eliminate it.
Fraud is, unfortunately, a cost of doing business.
route:oxford
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Perhaps you haven't noticed, but the part of the winning bid for the Scotrail franchise was to phase out paper tickets.
Yes, there will be attempts to hack and fake smartcards but I still think the problems will be far fewer.
Car thefts plummeted after they became far more secure and near impossible to start without a key. Of course people can crack the ECUs and break in to steal keys, but overall thefts are still way down.
Car thefts plummeted after they became far more secure and near impossible to start without a key. Of course people can crack the ECUs and break in to steal keys, but overall thefts are still way down.
I didnt notice and I dont really care either way if I am honest.
I have a main gripe about the fact that with smartcard technology comes booking office closures and staff redundancies - and no one wants it for the underground yet people are crying ouyt for it on the National Rail network. Doesnt make sense.
Of course. And the industry will need to work hard to keep one step ahead, or fix things when they're hacked.
I do think the industry is keeping quiet as to just how bad the fake ticket problem is. Just as I remember BT Cellnet keeping VERY quiet about how many people were using hacked phones to make free calls and 'spend' THOUSANDS without paying more than a couple of pounds.
It was a ridiculous system they used to launch prepay before anyone else, putting the account management on the handset. So it didn't take more than a few days for someone to hack the software to just keep adding credit.
It was a massive organised operation and these phones were being sold in Loot for big money in the tens of thousands. Cellnet couldn't get stock quick enough, but to this day they never admitted how much they lost. I got some estimates from people I knew, but it was all off the record.
They couldn't afford for the media to find out, or even for shareholders to find out. Instead the losses were quietly written off.
I think that while the numbers using fake tickets is relatively low given the number of passengers using the trains every day, the revenue being lost is likely to be relatively high.
I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but I think it;s likely to be high value tickets that really cost the industry.
I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but I think it;s likely to be high value tickets that really cost the industry.
Howardh
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Problem is, if there are really good fakes out there no-one will know about it!
Just wonder if when a ticket is printed there is a reciept with it, if the two shouldn't be shown together so they match up? But that wouldn't help fake bus/rail/metro paper tickets which you can get on a bus without receipt, I could probably fake them if I had the right paper with my limited photoshopping software and printer. Mind you, at about £8 for a day ticket, it would cost more than that in ink these days....
Another problem with spotting a fake ticket is that Seasons and the like would be in a wallet in most cases and the ticket doesnt get taken out when shown so the guard/RPI cant get a feel for the quality of the paper/card the ticket is printed on!
Proper QR codes and the ability to check those would cut down on that somewhat I think.
Proper QR codes and the ability to check those would cut down on that somewhat I think.
Why would QR codes help? By itself a QR code is no more secure than writing on a ticket. I understand the people are now making ticket stock with integrated smart chip, which will be more secure as you can make things so they only give up their secret when appropriately challenged.
A good few years ago Arlesey station was broken into and apparently all the ticket stock left behind. The thieves were IMO either really dumb or really smart (depending on whether appearances were deceptive)
You would be surprised what can end up where. In a previous job I found a box full of brand new scratchcards direct from National Lottery in the middle of a pallet delivered by Citylink, it was meant for the shop in the next village.
I think the theory is that security vehicles are a target, where as a lorry could be carrying empty beer barrels. The same reason that many lorries are not sealed or padlocked despite carrying some high value stuff, a thief sees a padlock and thinks there is something valuble inside.
thebigcheese
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OT but incidentally new scratch cards have to be 'registered' using the in store terminal before anyone can claim a prize against them - I think purely to stop them being high risk while in transit
I once picked a roll of rail ticket stock that had been left on the counter at Hatfield station (the window was closed). I took it over to the gateline staff and suggested it might not be a good idea to leave it unattended!
I can't imagine it being that difficult to get real ticket stock. If you were organised, and even willing to be threatening, then I am sure you could soon obtain ticket stock from someone who handles it or has access to it. Either threaten, which runs a risk (depending on how menacing you are), or use plan b - pay said member of staff to let it go walkies.
Once you have a roll, or perhaps a bunch of season ticket stock, then it's a case of printing and encoding the magstrip and I can't imagine either being difficult. Can anyone else?
Naturally there will be people making fakes on their own paper/card and some may not even have a working magstrip, but I bet there are LOTS of printed tickets that could never be noticed unless every season ticket was validated on the spot by checking the serial number/customer details/photocard details against a database.
And that isn't going to happen is it?
I can't imagine it being that difficult to get real ticket stock. If you were organised, and even willing to be threatening, then I am sure you could soon obtain ticket stock from someone who handles it or has access to it. Either threaten, which runs a risk (depending on how menacing you are), or use plan b - pay said member of staff to let it go walkies.
Once you have a roll, or perhaps a bunch of season ticket stock, then it's a case of printing and encoding the magstrip and I can't imagine either being difficult. Can anyone else?
Naturally there will be people making fakes on their own paper/card and some may not even have a working magstrip, but I bet there are LOTS of printed tickets that could never be noticed unless every season ticket was validated on the spot by checking the serial number/customer details/photocard details against a database.
And that isn't going to happen is it?
krus_aragon
Established Member
Agreed. I'd expect most avoiders of lower value fares to try ticketless travel rather than obtain a fake.
That's correct. National Lottery scratchcards have no value until activated on the lottery terminal in the store they ar sent to.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
Does that mean if I buy a scratchcard in the morning, take it to work and scratch it in my lunch break, if it wins I have to take it back to the same shop I bought it from or I can't claim the prize?
Or do the newsagents do something to activate every roll of scratchcards before they insert them in their holders so a win can be claimed anywhere with a terminal?
deltic1989
Established Member
I think the way it works is, they are scanned into the terminal before being inserted into the holder. (although don't quote me on that).
A win can be claimed anywhere that has a National Lottery terminal.
On many occasions I have bought a scratch card at my local branch of Wilko and claimed the prize at McColl's a few doors down.
On one occasion I bought the card at my local McColl's in Nottingham, and claimed my £50 prize at the Co-op near Lincoln City bus station.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
This is quite true. But anyone intrigued by the references to 'photoshop' and 'injet printer' should be cautioned : The interest in investigating ticket forgery will be directed at the large scale production and distribution of those high value tickets, with all of the resources that assist investigations into Serious Organised Crime and with all the rigour with which they are prosecuted.
You can claim a scratchcard prize at any lottery retailer, so there's nothing stopping you from buying a scratchcard in Penzance and claiming the prize in Thurso
A lottery terminal won't authorise a prize to be paid on a scratchcard that comes from a pack that hasn't been activated. If this happens (which is very unusual) it normally results in Camelot's security people getting involved to find out what's going on.
As has been previously said retailers have to activate each pack of scratchcards when they are first put on sale. A retailer has to pay for the scratchcards once they have been activated.
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