False details for penalty fare

[idiotttt]

Hi I would like to start this thread off by saying I now know what I did was wrong but am just looking for some advice as all the previous threads are slightly different to my case. As I am not a regular user of the train I assumed tickets can be purchased at any station or on the train so I got on the train at my local station where ticket offices are available but with a minute left for the train I rushed on assuming I'd have an opportunity to purchase a ticket as I have done before. Once I arrived at Bradford I went over to the barriers and asked the officer if I could purchase a ticket he then directed me to another officer so I asked her the same thing me being clueless didnt realise she was a penalty fare officer so she asked me a series of questions then asked for my name and adress at this point I panicked not knowing what was about to happen I provided a family members adress and a false name the officer then allowed me to leave. When the letter arrived it came to my grandads adress under the false name but came from the prosecutions department so I explained the situation on the letter but have not admitted to giving the false name my fear is that this will have gone to court and I have been researching and on Google forums and the railway regulations it states that the false details go through as a second offence and the second offence means I will be charged with 3 months in prison this is a huge fear I cant even eat or sleep or think straight with the fear of getting arrested or worse getting done for fraud does anyone have any information on weather this is likely to happen? I have never had any previous penalty fares but as it says it goes through as a second offence will this mean I will face the 3 months in prison? As I say the false details were given out of pure panic my intention was always to pay the fine which I begged the officer to allow me to do but wasn't given the opportunity as she was extremely rude to me I regret doing this now but not being a regular user of trains I was shocked in the situation and had no clue what was even going on the officer refused to explain anything to me she just simply wanted my adress and then sent me on my way im just wondering what to do once the situation reaches court and how serious this is

 

[Bertie the bus]

It really isn't clear what you have received.

Have you received a Penalty Fare, or is it a letter requesting the fare + an admin charge (often referred to on this forum as a Penalty Fake) or have you received a letter stating they are considering prosecution and giving you the opportunity to provide mitigation?

If it is one of the first two you might just get away with going online and paying it. If it is the third that could be a different matter as giving false details doesn't suggest you had no intention of avoiding the fare.

Regardless of what you have received you won't be getting a custodial sentence.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

As @Bertie the bus has said, realistically this won’t end in prison, so try to relax about that. And also as they have said, it’s not quite clear what letter you have been sent. Could you show us the letter? Make sure you hide the name and address on it (and anything else that might identify you) but that way we’ll know just what you have to deal with.

 

[idiotttt]

Hi thank you for your responses the letter stated

On Wednesday 31st you were spoken to by an authorised member of staff in relation to a contravention of alleged of railway regulations an evidential report has been submitted to this office regarding this incident before the company proceeds further with its investigations we would like to give you the opportunity of responding with your explanation concerning it.
"Regulations railway act shall be liable to a summary conviction of a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or in the discretion of the court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months"

Im not sure as the letter doesn't clearly state weather it is a prosecution but I sent the letter back off just explaining my side of the story and that I intended to pay but just panicked I called up the number on the letter today to chase up and was told it is still through with the investigations team im just hoping for a large fine im not bothered about a criminal record at this point its just the 3 months in prison that are worrying me as it seems to be written everywhere

As @Bertie the bus has said, realistically this won’t end in prison, so try to relax about that. And also as they have said, it’s not quite clear what letter you have been sent. Could you show us the letter? Make sure you hide the name and address on it (and anything else that might identify you) but that way we’ll know just what you have to deal with.

It really isn't clear what you have received.

Have you received a Penalty Fare, or is it a letter requesting the fare + an admin charge (often referred to on this forum as a Penalty Fake) or have you received a letter stating they are considering prosecution and giving you the opportunity to provide mitigation?

If it is one of the first two you might just get away with going online and paying it. If it is the third that could be a different matter as giving false details doesn't suggest you had no intention of avoiding the fare.

Regardless of what you have received you won't be getting a custodial sentence.

Luckily I sent a picture of the letter to my boyfriend before sending it off so I have written out what was stated above its quite unclear but does seem like a prosecutions letter im just not sure how to go further with this matter do I plead guilty in court and just explain that I got scared this was such a stupid mistake ive made but it is my first ever offence ive never had a penalty fare or any other sort of conviction

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi thank you for your responses the letter stated

On Wednesday 31st you were spoken to by an authorised member of staff in relation to a contravention of alleged of railway regulations an evidential report has been submitted to this office regarding this incident before the company proceeds further with its investigations we would like to give you the opportunity of responding with your explanation concerning it.
"Regulations railway act shall be liable to a summary conviction of a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or in the discretion of the court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months"

Im not sure as the letter doesn't clearly state weather it is a prosecution but I sent the letter back off just explaining my side of the story and that I intended to pay but just panicked I called up the number on the letter today to chase up and was told it is still through with the investigations team im just hoping for a large fine im not bothered about a criminal record at this point its just the 3 months in prison that are worrying me as it seems to be written everywhere

OK. The matter hasn't gone to court yet. What the letter means is that the railway are thinking about whether to take you to court, but would like to hear your side of the story before they make a decision.

By the sounds of things, you've now sent them your side of the story. That means that the railway now has a choice of three things that it can do:

- it can decide that nothing more needs to be done. But it's very unlikely that they will do this
- that you can be offered an 'out of court settlement' - essentially that you pay some money (probably the train fare you should have paid plus a hundred pounds or so for the railway's 'admin costs') and the railway will not take you to court. This is probably the most likely thing to happen
- that the railway take you to court and will prosecute you for not paying the fare: on the basis of what you have told us, if they prosecute then they will win and you will have to pay a fine, plus the train fare you should have paid, plus costs, plus court costs. Very roughly this will come to something like £500*. This could happen.

As you have written back to the railway, there's nothing you can do right now. Keep an eye out for their letter and make sure you open it when they get back to you - you will need to respond as ignoring it will mean that you end up in court.

*I'm thinking a fine of ~£200 plus costs of ~£150 plus court surcharge of ~75 plus fare of ~£20. These are just figures I've pulled out of my head to give a rough idea of how much losing at court would cost so don't rely on them!

 

[idiotttt]

OK. The matter hasn't gone to court yet. What the letter means is that the railway are thinking about whether to take you to court, but would like to hear your side of the story before they make a decision.

By the sounds of things, you've now sent them your side of the story. That means that the railway now has a choice of three things that it can do:

- it can decide that nothing more needs to be done. But it's very unlikely that they will do this
- that you can be offered an 'out of court settlement' - essentially that you pay some money (probably the train fare you should have paid plus a hundred pounds or so for the railway's 'admin costs') and the railway will not take you to court. This is probably the most likely thing to happen
- that the railway take you to court and will prosecute you for not paying the fare: on the basis of what you have told us, if they prosecute then they will win and you will have to pay a fine, plus the train fare you should have paid, plus costs, plus court costs. Very roughly this will come to something like £500*. This could happen.

As you have written back to the railway, there's nothing you can do right now. Keep an eye out for their letter and make sure you open it when they get back to you - you will need to respond as ignoring it will mean that you end up in court.

*I'm thinking a fine of ~£200 plus costs of ~£150 plus court surcharge of ~75 plus fare of ~£20. These are just figures I've pulled out of my head to give a rough idea of how much losing at court would cost so don't rely on them!

Thank you so much for your response i did state on the letter that im happy to pay the pwnalty fare and would like to end the matter in the easiest way possible but I think with giving the false details they are likely to send it to court as the ticket officer was quite rude to me she refused to show me any ID so I did put this all in the letter but now im thinking maybe a big apology may have gone down better either way its too late now as the letter has gone through my biggest fear was just the prison sentence it seems like the fine will set me back a lot but in the long run its the better outcome than what I was expecting I will look out for the letter and respond as soon as I get it

 

[AlterEgo]

OP, if you get another response from them please share it with us. Please also give us the opportunity to view any reply you wish to send. It’s really important when dealing with matters of such importance that you get the letter right, and that you convey the main points accurately.

You can stop worrying about prison though. That doesn’t happen in practice.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Thank you so much for your response i did state on the letter that im happy to pay the pwnalty fare and would like to end the matter in the easiest way possible but I think with giving the false details they are likely to send it to court as the ticket officer was quite rude to me she refused to show me any ID so I did put this all in the letter but now im thinking maybe a big apology may have gone down better either way its too late now as the letter has gone through my biggest fear was just the prison sentence it seems like the fine will set me back a lot but in the long run its the better outcome than what I was expecting I will look out for the letter and respond as soon as I get it

So you have responded to the letter using the false name? As complaining about a rude ticket inspector isn’t mitigation for travelling without a ticket there is probably a reasonable chance this could go to court.

Could somebody more knowledgeable of the law comment on whether if they appear in court under the false name that could result in a charge of perverting the course of justice?

 

[idiotttt]

So you have responded to the letter using the false name? As complaining about a rude ticket inspector isn’t mitigation for travelling without a ticket there is probably a reasonable chance this could go to court.

Could somebody more knowledgeable of the law comment on whether if they appear in court under the false name that could result in a charge of perverting the course of justice?

I did call up the number on the letter and confirm my correct details without any explanation as to why they were wrong and they did say they'd updated them to the correct ones so im hoping if it goes to court they will do it under the correct details as this was a big fear of mine too

OP, if you get another response from them please share it with us. Please also give us the opportunity to view any reply you wish to send. It’s really important when dealing with matters of such importance that you get the letter right, and that you convey the main points accurately.

You can stop worrying about prison though. That doesn’t happen in practice.

Once I get another response I will definately update on here before responding to it

 

[HSP 2]

One thing that I can't understand is that both stations at Bradford are penalty fare stations why the OP is not just been asked for the £20 penalty fare + the cost of the ticket?

If this is not relevant, please removed the post.

 

[Haywain]

One thing that I can't understand is that both stations at Bradford are penalty fare stations why the OP is not just been asked for the £20 penalty fare + the cost of the ticket?

If this is not relevant, please removed the post.

Because there is no automatic right to a penalty fare.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Because there is no automatic right to a penalty fare, and what the OP did was not a mistake but a deliberate action to avoid a higher fare.

Wrong thread. The one you are referring to was a person travelling from Frizinghall – Leeds on a Bradford – Leeds Advance. No ticket was purchased in this case.

To answer, or rather to not answer, why a PF wasn’t issued I don’t think anybody can answer that as the OP is rather confusing and there are inconsistencies, e.g. states they are unfamiliar with the railway but then states they begged the RPO for a Penalty Fare rather than being reported for prosecution despite claiming they didn’t even know they were being reported for prosecution.

 

[Haywain]

Wrong thread.

Fair comment. I’ve edited my reply now.

 

[idiotttt]

Hi I am just writing an update onto this thread as I realise I wrote everything down in a state of panic and have come across as quite confusing. The situation was I had no ticket as I wanted to purchase one after my journey the penalty fare officer put it straight down as a prosecution as she said a ticket office was available at the station I got on but she didn't tell me this. Now having done all the research im aware that this is what happened so I was never going to be given tho opportunity to pay a penalty fare me being a newbie to all this train stuff at that moment I was just asking for a fine as I didnt know prosecutions were a thing and was wondering why I had to wait on a letter. Obviously me then giving false details didnt help the situation as the letter had arrived under a false name but it asked me for mitigation and my side of the story so I replied to it as it had been sat in my grandads house for a few days and I had to get it sent off quickly so I just wrote my side of the story my experience with the ticket officer and offered to pay a penalty fare ive received no further letters so im guessing the matter has gone to court so im just waiting on a summons now sorry for any confusion I am still very feared that I it'll get a second charge of fraud for supplying these false details does anybody know weather the fase details still count as the same prosecution and just make it a higher fine or is there a chance I could actually go to prison for that part of it when I admit to it in court?

 

[furlong]

Giving false details would often be disregarded if the letter still reached you in time and you corrected them in your first reply and you were not already known to the railway or trying to avoid a check of your previous purchases - in other words you did not actually try to use them to avoid taking responsibility. Depending on the specifics, they may want to check this isn't an attempt to get someone else to take your place though. (That's more common with traffic offences to avoid people losing their licence.)
People's addresses can change - as long as you get the letter, that should be OK - you just ask them to send future correspondence to the new address you give and there's no need to give a reason for that.

If charged, it would count as a separate offence, but if convicted, in practice, it would be unlikely to make much difference to the punishment which would primarily depend on your income and take account of all the convictions together.

 

[idiotttt]

Hi everyone I am still waiting on any response for this matter from the northern and am considering writing again and offering an out of court settlement i was wondering if anyone knows weather this is worth a try as it seems likely the matter will be sent to court its been so long now I can barely remember what was even said when the fine was issued by both myself and the officer I just remember it being quite a heated conversation which won't look good if I am trying to fight the case. Also how much is a good amount to offer and how should this be worded any advice would be greatly appreciated thank you
@Fawkes Cat
@Bertie the bus

 

[AlterEgo]

There’s nothing to be gained by pre-empting their correspondence. It may be they are looking further into your purchase history, or they are simply behind with their cases.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If you are beginning to forget quite what happened, then write it down in as much detail as you can remember. That way, if you need to give your side of the story you will know what you saw and heard.

 

[idiotttt]

@Fawkes Cat
@AlterEgo

Thank you for your responses my main worry is now looking back on the situation with how rude the officer was being to me I began to get frustrated and did end up swearing not to the officer but in conversation it was something along the lines of "you haven't even told me if youve issued me with a f***ing fine" im aware this was extremely inappropriate but in the heat of the moment I was very wound up and im just worrying incase that will make the offence worse off in court if I get off with a fine of any amount im more than happy but just the idea of prison is driving me insane as I say I would never directly swear towards anyone and I didnt come across as aggressive or intimidating it was more frustration due to her unprofessionalism but I understand this can be seen one of two ways from the courts point of view and it doesn't look too good for me which is why I was really hoping to try settle it out of court do you know weather this will make the outcome change from just a fine to something worse ?

 

[6Gman]

@Fawkes Cat
@AlterEgo

Thank you for your responses my main worry is now looking back on the situation with how rude the officer was being to me I began to get frustrated and did end up swearing not to the officer but in conversation it was something along the lines of "you haven't even told me if youve issued me with a f***ing fine" im aware this was extremely inappropriate but in the heat of the moment I was very wound up and im just worrying incase that will make the offence worse off in court if I get off with a fine of any amount im more than happy but just the idea of prison is driving me insane as I say I would never directly swear towards anyone and I didnt come across as aggressive or intimidating it was more frustration due to her unprofessionalism but I understand this can be seen one of two ways from the courts point of view and it doesn't look too good for me which is why I was really hoping to try settle it out of court do you know weather this will make the outcome change from just a fine to something worse ?

You are not going to go to prison for a single ticketing offence.

You are not going to go to prison for using the f word to a member of staff.