Falsely accused of altering 16-25 railcard by conductor

[maumay]

Hello,

Last night (12/08/18) I traveled on a Northern rail train from Sheffield to Leeds. When asked for my ticket I gave it to the conductor (it was perfectly valid) and then he asked for my railcard which I also gave to him (it was also perfectly valid). The railcard was bought at Leeds station and it was one of the flimsy paper/card one, since I use it loads and just keep it in my wallet the writing had become a bit worn and faded - but still perfectly legible. There was a small white mark near the 9 in the expiry date (11/01/2019) which did not obscure the number but the conductor claimed I had altered the card from the date 11/01/2018 by scratching out part of the 8 and decided to confiscate the railcard.

He then asked for my name and address, I felt extremely uncomfortable giving these personal details to a complete stranger but I handed them over. He went away and returned about 10 mins later telling me he had checked the electoral register and hadn't found my name to be registered at the address I gave him... I have voted twice in elections whilst living at this address. I got out my driving license which had concrete proof of my address and he told me the prosecutions team would be in touch and finally left me alone.

I have a receipt for the railcard, dated 11/01/18 along with documentation for replacing the railcard if I lost it etc which has a "railcard number" on it. How is it best to proceed? I am finding hard to just forget about it, I was also unable to get a picture of the railcard before he took it so what is to say that he wouldn't do his own bit of alteration before he files the report to make it look worse than it actually was? This has been playing on my mind.

Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If you have a receipt showing that you bought the Railcard on a certain date, this is strong evidence that you had no reason to fraudulently modify the Railcard.

Ultimately as long as the Railcard is legible and there are no signs of fraudulent modification (I doubt a conductor is an expert in how people fraudulently modify Railcards, or at least not in proving it), then I would hope for the matter to be resolved by them returning your Railcard and reimbursing you any additional costs you have incurred through not having your Railcard (e.g. having to buy undiscounted tickets, and/or excessing away the Railcard discount from existing tickets).

Of course there is always the possibility they will want to claim that your Railcard was indeed fraudulently modified - in which case the matter may proceed to prosecution, either for the less serious Railway Byelaw 18 offence of boarding a train without a valid ticket and/or being unable to present a valid ticket for inspection, or for the more serious Regulation of Railways Act 1889 offence of failing to pay the fare due, with intent to avoid payment of the correct fare. It's possible they might also consider prosecution under Byelaw 20(1) - making or using fraudulent tickets - but it seems rather less likely to me, as the prosecutions under this Byelaw are far less common than those under either of the two other above laws.

If the matter proceeds in any other way than them returning the Railcard and reimbursing your losses (remember to take pictures of all tickets and to store all receipts etc.), please do come back here and ask us for further advice.

 

[maumay]

x

Thanks for the speedy reply. I assume it is the case that the prosecution team which receives the report and my railcard will be able to check my name in their records and see the date I made the purchase and the actual expiry date of the card?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for the speedy reply. I assume it is the case that the prosecution team which receives the report and my railcard will be able to check my name in their records and see the date I made the purchase and the actual expiry date of the card?

I would expect so, I think Railcard purchases are recorded.

 

[najaB]

I would expect so, I think Railcard purchases are recorded.

I am fairly sure I remember someone posting that they don't record anything over and above the cash transaction - that's why it's so important to keep the receipt. That said, the OP has a receipt which, presumably, matches the card which was withdrawn so I don't imagine it will take long for Northern to realise that they've effed-up here.

 

[47421]

Station purchased railcards fading is a well known issue as per railcard web site, so looks like a strange over-reaction from conductor

• I bought my Railcard from a rail station and all of the information on it has faded. What can I do?
• A: Railcards issued at stations are printed on paper. On rare occasions, the way that the surface of the Railcard interacts with the plastic in some ticket wallets destabilises the print and makes it fade. If this has happened to your Railcard you can take it into a staffed rail station and they will replace it free of charge. Most stations will be able to check the validity of the Railcards by running it through the ticket–issuing machine to check when it was originally issued.

 

[mikeg]

Agreed this is strange. Incidentally I once had northallerton ticket office refuse to replace a railcard on the grounds you could still make out the expiry date, even though it was badly faded. The railway doesn't help itself sometimes. Would the OP be able to be compensated for any inconvenience as a result of a perfectly valid railcard being confiscated, such as full price travel? This is one of the cases here where I'm very much siding with the OP in every way.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Agreed this is strange. Incidentally I once had northallerton ticket office refuse to replace a railcard on the grounds you could still make out the expiry date, even though it was badly faded. The railway doesn't help itself sometimes. Would the OP be able to be compensated for any inconvenience as a result of a perfectly valid railcard being confiscated, such as full price travel? This is one of the cases here where I'm very much siding with the OP in every way.

I don't think compensated, so much as reimbursed for the losses the incorrect withdrawal of the Railcard causes. It works in the same way as the incorrect withdrawal of a season ticket - you should be reimbursed for the additional tickets you have had to buy.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Hi https://www.railforums.co.uk/members/maumay.63556/

Firstly if you have got the receipt then there's nothing to worry about (apart from some inconvenience).

Secondly from your account there was some element of doubt , faded card , mark over where the bottom left of an 8 would have been....unfortunately staff see a lot of attempted misuse of railcards / claims of entitlement to discount people don't actually have. I usually see at least a couple a day. Out of date cards ("I didn't realize" - it was 2 years out of date). Cards so faded you cant see anything (with claims that the "man on the train" said it was OK), cards reappearing with someone else trying to use them, cards left at home ("but I bought it from you"), flashing a photo ID card with no railcard, attempts to insist Network Cards are valid in Mid Wales, asking for "returns with two seniors" when they have no railcard etc.

You should have come into a Booking Office and they would have issued you a replacement railcard free of charge if it had started to fade/ become marked. I would also suggest keeping it in a blue wallet in future - there less prone to fading in them.

 

[The_Train]

I've never known anyone to check the electoral register as a way of confirming your address. Surely that's not a concrete way of doing that considering you can opt out of having your details available on the 'open' register (and in some cases not be listed at all). Seems like a very bizarre encounter if you ask me

 

[najaB]

I've never known anyone to check the electoral register as a way of confirming your address.

It's very common, and I believe the Railway has access to the closed register for ID verification purposes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course it rather depends what he actually said.

If he said "You are lying, your address doesn't check out" he needs retraining.

If he said "I'm sorry, I've called our office and I'm not able to verify that address using our system; can you provide some proof of it at all?", to which a driving licence or similar would very often be a decent solution which should be accepted gracefully, that is him doing his job properly.

 

[maumay]

Thanks everyone for your replies, my mind feels more at ease. The strange thing about the electoral register thing is that I checked with my local authority and my name is registered to vote at the address I gave to him. He didn't accuse me of lying but he said "Why is your name not confirmed at this address on the electoral register?". Overall I got the impression that he kind of wanted me to have written an incorrect address and then crack when he said that so he could escalate things.

 

[cuccir]

Given that maumay has the receipt which proves that the date on the Railcard is accurate - is there any merit in contacting Northern to try and speed things up a touch? Normally we'd suggest waiting for them to process it but is this a case where a phone call explaining the situation might get the Railcard back more quickly? I'm not sure but would be interested in others' thoughts?

 

[Haywain]

I would expect so, I think Railcard purchases are recorded.

Completed railcard forms *should* be sent off to a central address somewhere, and would then probably be recorded on some sort of database. However, I have seen some clerks put the completed forms straight in the bin, and there is no guarantee that in any event the forms would always arrive at the central address given they are usually sent by second class post. If they are then recorded, the question will arise over who has legitimate access to the information given the requirements of GDPR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have seen some clerks put the completed forms straight in the bin

I suspect the Information Commissioner might well be very interested if that (rather than shredding) is actually occurring. I would certainly consider putting a name and address in the bin without any attempt to destroy it to be a wilful breach of GDPR.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Completed railcard forms *should* be sent off to a central address somewhere, and would then probably be recorded on some sort of database. However, I have seen some clerks put the completed forms straight in the bin, and there is no guarantee that in any event the forms would always arrive at the central address given they are usually sent by second class post. If they are then recorded, the question will arise over who has legitimate access to the information given the requirements of GDPR.

sent to Cardiff Special Delivery- with other stuff.

 

[JB_B]

If this happens to anyone else it might also be worth asking for the magstripe on the railcard to be checked.

GTR RPIs can do this and were able to verify that my (completely faded) Network card was still valid.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If this happens to anyone else it might also be worth asking for the magstripe on the railcard to be checked.

GTR RPIs can do this and were able to verify that my (completely faded) Network card was still valid.

What data does a Railcard's magstripe contain? I presume plastic (online bought) Railcards don't have this benefit - what happens if the writing on a plastic Railcard fades? Is a replacement available, and free of charge?

 

[najaB]

I presume plastic (online bought) Railcards don't have this benefit - what happens if the writing on a plastic Railcard fades?

The printing process is completely different so it shouldn't really fade unless treated pretty harshly. With that in mind...

Is a replacement available, and free of charge?

From the FAQs:

What do I do if my Railcard is lost or damaged?
If you bought your Railcard online, you will need to get a replacement online. You can only apply for a replacement Railcard seven or more days after the date of original purchase.

You will have to pay a £10 administration fee if your Railcard was lost or damaged.

 

[Busaholic]

Modern printing on receipts etc is ridiculously poor. As a self-employed person I was required to keep records/receipts etc for years afterwards, and, in fact, my attic is still full with these from up to thirty years ago. All the till receipts are still absolutely legible, though the white paper is yellowing! Contrast this with my last few years before retirement when I delivered a carrier bag full of receipts to my accountant, the same one I'd been using all those years, and he had to throw half of them away because they were totally illegible. The combination of shiny paper and poor printing is lethal and will lead to many problems, including possible miscarriages of justice.

 

[najaB]

The combination of shiny paper and poor printing is lethal and will lead to many problems, including possible miscarriages of justice.

Fortunately paper receipts are become less and less relevant as more commerce is done electronically.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The printing process is completely different so it shouldn't really fade unless treated pretty harshly. With that in mind...
From the FAQs:

I saw two faded plastics in the space of 20 minutes the other week one was almost all gone.....

 

[najaB]

I saw two faded plastics in the space of 20 minutes the other week one was almost all gone.....

They must've changed the printing process as the old one actually imbedded the dye into the top layer of plastic. You could test it by scraping the card with a scalpel - it took a few passes to get down to the base layer.

 

[island]

I suspect the Information Commissioner might well be very interested if that (rather than shredding) is actually occurring. I would certainly consider putting a name and address in the bin without any attempt to destroy it to be a wilful breach of GDPR.

It isn’t.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn’t.

It certainly is.

A minor one, and probably not a reportable one, but a breach nonetheless, as that data may be reasonably assumed to be read by someone else.

ALL PII (Personally Identifiable Information) disposed of by a business on paper MUST be shredded or otherwise securely disposed. That an identifiable person (name and address) has purchased a Railcard is definitely PII.

 

[maumay]

So... has anyone got any advice about what I should do with my train tickets from Leeds to London for the weekend after next which both rely on my railcard?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So... has anyone got any advice about what I should do with my train tickets from Leeds to London for the weekend after next which both rely on my railcard?

Wait until nearer the date. Then if you still don't have your Railcard back, go to a ticket office before your journey (ideally the evening before, say) and ask to excess away the Railcard restriction - explaining the situation if necessary. If you can't get any ticket office to do that, you'll have to buy new undiscounted tickets (though if you do this the evening before there may still be some Advances available). In any case, keep all your receipts and tickets safe, take pictures of them and back said pictures up. That way you can claim the cost back when/if this is all resolved.

 

[najaB]

So... has anyone got any advice about what I should do with my train tickets from Leeds to London for the weekend after next which both rely on my railcard?

Assuming you have to travel, the cheapest option will be buying a new railcard. Add that to your requested refund once Northern realise they've messed up - effectively you'll have your railcard validity period extended for free.

go to a ticket office before your journey (ideally the evening before, say) and ask to excess away the Railcard restriction

Depending on the tickets held it might well be cheaper to buy a new railcard.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Assuming you have to travel, the cheapest option will be buying a new railcard. Add that to your requested refund once Northern realise they've messed up - effectively you'll have your railcard validity period extended for free.Depending on the tickets held it might well be cheaper to buy a new railcard.

I would be worried that they might refuse a refund of this, or only award a partial refund. Or that, alternatively, they might say it shows you know you didn't have a valid Railcard. Risky in my opinion.