Fare evasion scalated to court and I was completly unaware of this. Help to prepare for court with no money?

[hogroast61]

I think this is my only way I can access legal advice at the moment and reddit seems useless. I contacted citizens advice through the webchat option because the waiting list to book an apointment is too long they said but I'm waiting. I can't afford a solicitor and the ones I've called that offer free consultation won't help me. I am unaware of any other ways of getting proper legal advice so guidance on this is appreciated too. I've called free debt advice helplines but I guess this is not about debt management but a court case that could end on that.

I recieved a TFL fine in May 2023. I travelled from Finchley Road and Frognal to Kentish Town West, both stations don't have any barriers. The penalty was travelling without a valid ticket. I don't want to incriminate myself (or not) on the internet since I am a quite paranoid person, guide me as if I was guilty even though I am not.

I appealed to it on the last day available (my complete and absolute bad for this). My appeal was rejected because of "arriving late to office" it was on the last day but it was on time. I complained and asked for clarification. They ignored it, addressing other matters in my email but that. For example saying the only way to pay is by phone after I explained I can't receive or make calls because my phone has a complete audio failure (and it still does because I haven't been able to buy a new one). I kept asking for clarification on the appeal and they started to simply not email me back. I kept asking for a follow ups and updates and spamming them with emails until they got back to me saying that I had 21 days from day of issue to appeal and that's why it was rejected it. BUT on the fine it said I had 21 days from the day after day of issue. If I wouldn't have submitted it on the last day I wouldn't be here but well. I sent them proof of both the fine and webpage stating that I had 21 days after day of issue and they ignored me again, so I said well, what else am I suppossed to do? I keep sending them emails they ignore, now they give me contradictory information and I can't even afford paying anyways (which I told them even though I agreed to if I receive some clarification) so I just let it be. (mistake again)

I moved houses, left expensive grey london, started going to univeristy in a different city and recently visited my exflatmate who was keeping letters for me. I opened them and who would have guessed!! A court result and 3 letters from the bailiffs either asking me to pay NOW or saying the bailifts are going/went to my (previous) house. It is important to note that the actual letter asking me to go to court is no where to be found, I only have the result of it. I also recently discovered that two of the three letters have an incorrect court stated as hearing court (there's no mention of any court in the third one) which is something I don't understand at all. I've called HMCTS and they haven't been able to give me any guidance on this. The court where the hearing supossedly took place has been closed since 2020.

I've called the bailiffs so they knew I wasn't even aware that all of this was going on, see if I could put it on hold or what solution they could provide me and well, obviously the bailiffs were super unhelpful, slightly mean and the minimun they offered was 140£ for 6 moths, which is a bit less than my average expenses monthly (not counting rent).

I spoke to citizens advice and it seems like I can appeal with a "Statutory declaration of ignorance of proceedings". Which I have done and well, I guess everything will start from the beginning if they wish to accept it. I don't know if this was the right choice. I have never had any issues with the law, I have never be en to court, I have no idea about how to procede with anything. English is not my first language and I don't even know how to properly write a letter adressing court important people in the most respectful manner. In my statutory declaration, the person (HMCTS) writting it for me through the phone has put that I have pleaded "I don't know". I don't know the consequences of that either. I don't know how pleading guilty or not guilty is going to affect my options in the future


Any advice on how to prepare/information on what is coming will be much appreciated. I guess I still have months until the statutory declaration is presented before a magestry but I have no idea what is going to happen during or after it. I honeslty have no clue what I'm actually getting into. I don't understand how to procede with this either or what are the consequences of saying certain stuff.

I am not working at the moment. I have been looking for a job for 3 months but been unable to find something that doesn't overlap with my university schedule. I do small jobs whenever I have the chance to get any kind of income for food and other expenses but all the money I have now came from a scholarship I was awarded and it is just enough to cover rent until the next payment. Is there any way I can prove and explain that I literally don't have the means to pay nor had the means to pay when I received the fine. Going through my bank statements I have been living on aprox 800£ a month. Some months more some months less. My financial situation has never been stable and depends on if I'm able to get any income this month or not. Is there any way I can do community service instead? I mean I'd like to think that if the court sees my bank statements + no income + no properties nor valuable goods they will look for an alternative. But, what could that alternative be? I was also wondering if there's any way I can access legal help through being a vulnerable adult.

My situation could change by the time I have the hearing but well, until then I have no money. Literally my biggest expense of last year was TFL and I pretty much only used it to go to work.

Please I'm looking for advice not judgement, I'll get enough of that in court. Since I made my account yesterday all my replies are going to have to be approved by a moderator so it's going to take some time. In regards to the phone situation I feel like I need to give context because it contradicts itself. I have made calls with the university staff and now I have a 2013 phone from which I can veeery slowwwly make calls. In 2023 I had no way to contact anyone by call unless it was through someone elses phone, I dind't really have someone else, my flatmate was of help sometimes.

 

[island]

I recieved a TFL fine in May 2023. I appealed to it on the last day available (my complete and absolute bad for this). My appeal was rejected because of "arriving late to office" it was on the last day but it was on time. I complained and asked for clarification. The ignored it, addressing other matters in my email but that. For example saying the only way to pay is by phone after I explained I can't receive or make calls because my phone has a complete audio failure (and it still does because I haven't been able to buy a new one). I kept asking for clarification on the appeal and they started to simply not email me back. I kept asking for a follow ups and updates and spamming them with emails until they got back to me saying that I had 21 days from day of issue to appeal and that's why it was rejected it. BUT on the fine it said I had 21 days from the day after day of issue. If I wouldn't have submitted it on the last day I wouldn't be here but well. I sent them proof of both the fine and webpage stating that I had 21 days after day of issue and they ignored me again, so I said well, what else am I suppossed to do? I keep sending them emails they ignore, now they give me contradictory information and I can't even afford paying anyways (which I told them even though I agreed to if I receive some clarification) so I just let it be. (mistake again)

I have read all of this but I won't address it line by line, as it does not change the advice I would give. (There are different rules for prosecutions after an appeal has been made on National Rail, but not on TfL.)

I moved houses, left expensive grey london, started going to univeristy in a different city and recently visited my exflatmate who was keeping letters for me. I opened them and who would have guessed!! A court result and 3 letters from the bailiffs either asking me to pay NOW or saying the bailifts are going/went to my (previous) house. It is important to note that the actual letter asking me to go to court is no where to be found, I only have the result of it. I also recently discovered that two of the three letters (there's no mention of any court in the third one) have an incorrect court stated as hearing court which is something I don't understand at all. I've called HMCTS and they haven't been able to give me any guidance on this. The court where the hering supossedly took place has been closed since 2020.

Please can you upload photos/scans of all pages of all letters you have received about this situation, covering over any reference numbers and personal information.

I've called the bailiffs so they knew I wasn't even aware that all of this was going on, see if I could put it on hold or what solution they could provide me and well, obviously the bailiffs were super unhelpful, slightly mean and the minimun they offered was 140£ for 6 moths, which is a bit less than my average expenses monthly (not counting rent).

Bailiffs will want to get paid and it's not "unhelpful" if they expect a realistic contribution that will pay off the debt in a reasonable time. They can refer the matter back to court if unpaid and that can eventually lead to you being arrested.

I spoke to citizens advice and it seems like I can appeal with a "Statutory declaration of ignorance of proceedings". Which I have done and well, I guess everything will start from the beginning if they wish to accept it. I don't know if this was the right choice. I have never had any issues with the law, I have never been to court, I have no idea about how to procede with anything. English is not my first language and I don't even know how to properly write a letter adressing court important people in the most respectful manner. In my statutory declaration, the person (HMCTS) writting it for me through the phone has put that I have pleaded "I don't know". I don't know the consequences of that either. I don't know how pleading guilty or not guilty is going to affect my options in the future

You are correct that a statutory declaration is the way to go. You cannot make this over the phone. You can only do it in person. If you have not been to a court or a solicitor to sign a form, then you have not yet made a statutory declaration.

Any advice on how to prepare/information on what is coming will be much appreciated. I guess I still have months until the statutory declaration is presented before a magestry but I have no idea what is going to happen during or after it. I honeslty have no clue what I'm actually getting into. I don't understand how to procede with this either or what are the consequences of saying certain stuff.

We can assist with that but would first need to see the court paperwork and understand when you are making a statutory declaration. If you phoned up, were you given an appointment date and place?

I am not working at the moment. I have been looking for a job for 3 months but been unable to find something that doesn't overlap with my university schedule. I do small jobs whenever I have the chance to get any kind of income for food and other expenses but all the money I have now came from a scholarship I was awarded and it is just enough to cover rent until the next payment. Is there any way I can prove and explain that I literally don't have the means to pay nor had the means to pay when I received the fine. Is there any way I can do community service instead?

Assuming you have been convicted of an offence under the TfL byelaws, this is not an imprisonable offence and therefore the law says that the court cannot give you community service as a punishment.

I mean I'd like to think that if the court sees my bank statements + no income + no properties nor valuable goods they will look for an alternative. But, what could that alternative be?

The court can reduce the fine and for students or people with no income, it will usually reduce it to £80 or less with a surcharge of 40% for a total of £112. Compensation and costs won't be reduced. You'll normally pay this in instalments over 12 months. The court will make a collection order and will likely also make an attachment of earnings/deduction from benefits order.

My situation could change by the time I have the hearing but well, until then I have no money. Literally my biggest expense of last year was TFL and I pretty much only used it to go to work.

Please I'm looking for advice not judgement, I'll get enough of that in court.

Hopefully the above advice is a good start, but you'll need to upload copies of the paperwork you've received for us to assist you.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I recieved a TFL fine in May 2023.

Did you actually do whatever you were fined for?

The thing is, if you didn't do it, our advice may be different from if you did do it.

 

[WesternLancer]

Aside from the already helpful responses above - Is it not the case that the OP can make a Statutory Declaration at a solicitors office for a fairly token standard sum (£10?) and then take things from there with advice from this forum as required - ie not engaging the solicitor with further work at fees the OP can not afford to pay?

To the OP:
If you are a student you may be able to get advice form your student union welfare service and or they may have a deal with a local legal firm for an element of free advice / help - it's worth asking about this.

also - you will get good advice on here as per your options if you stick with the forum to help you and answer questions put to you so people can advise on best (or least worst) options that you have.

in addition - see the pinned post for questions people also need to know about what the penalty was for to start with - journey concerned, from and to etc etc

for ref re your post - you could either pay for a Royal Mail redirect (see their website) or instead of your former flat mate saving up the post all they need to do is write on envelopes 'please forward to xxx address' and drop that in a pillar box - no stamp required, and Royal Mail will redeliver it to you - there is no cost to this so long as the post had valid stamp / payment on it to start with.

 

[hogroast61]

You are correct that a statutory declaration is the way to go. You cannot make this over the phone. You can only do it in person. If you have not been to a court or a solicitor to sign a form, then you have not yet made a statutory declaration.

I thought the same, but it seems like you can. I called HMCTS asking for guidance because on the statutory declaration form from GOV.UK it says that I need to present the statutory declaration before a magistrates, solicitor etc.. and I don't really know what that means, I just wanted some information. And without really been aware of this, the person on the phone had made a statutory declaration for me, I don't even know what content had on it. I had to phone them again asking them what was on it because I was freaking out, I was explaining my situation and then suddenly everything I said could affect my future. It's just so confusing, but yeah 100% I've made a statutory declaration or an application to make one? Anyways this is 100% happening and all I have to do is wait until they get back to me with a date.

We can assist with that but would first need to see the court paperwork and understand when you are making a statutory declaration. If you phoned up, were you given an appointment date and place?

No idea, they told me they'll call me, send me an email and a letter anytime from now to June to present myself before the judges I guess to say that I had no clue about the case and that I plead ____. I guess, maybe not, I don't know.

I've attached the four letters I've received. Thanks in advance btw.

If you are a student you may be able to get advice form your student union welfare service and or they may have a deal with a local legal firm for an element of free advice / help - it's worth asking about this.

I am in contact with different student help teams at my university due to other matters. They've said they don't have any power to give legal advice but they still try to be as helpful as possible. I will check if the student union can do something about it, I doubt it but worth giving it a try.

in addition - see the pinned post for questions people also need to know about what the penalty was for to start with - journey concerned, from and to etc etc

I will update my main post in a second with these details. Thanks.

 

[island]

Aside from the already helpful responses above - Is it not the case that the OP can make a Statutory Declaration at a solicitors office for a fairly token standard sum (£10?) and then take things from there with advice from this forum as required - ie not engaging the solicitor with further work at fees the OP can not afford to pay?

It's £5 at a solicitor or free at a Magistrates Court. If done at a solicitor you are absolutely correct that there is no further obligation to use said solicitor.

To the OP:
If you are a student you may be able to get advice form your student union welfare service and or they may have a deal with a local legal firm for an element of free advice / help - it's worth asking about this.

also - you will get good advice on here as per your options if you stick with the forum to help you and answer questions put to you so people can advise on best (or least worst) options that you have.

in addition - see the pinned post for questions people also need to know about what the penalty was for to start with - journey concerned, from and to etc etc

All correct.

for ref re your post - you could either pay for a Royal Mail redirect (see their website)

Good idea

or instead of your former flat mate saving up the post all they need to do is write on envelopes 'please forward to xxx address' and drop that in a pillar box - no stamp required, and Royal Mail will redeliver it to you - there is no cost to this so long as the post had valid stamp / payment on it to start with.

Royal Mail classes this an "informal redirect" and their policy is it is deemed to be unpaid mail so a grey card will be issued asking for £5 before the letter can be delivered.

 

[WesternLancer]

I thought the same, but it seems like you can. I called HMCTS asking for guidance because on the statutory declaration form from GOV.UK it says that I need to present the statutory declaration before a magistrates, solicitor etc.. and I don't really know what that means, I just wanted some information. And without really been aware of this, the person on the phone had made a statutory declaration for me, I don't even know what content had on it. I had to phone them again asking them what was on it because I was freaking out, I was explaining my situation and then suddenly everything I said could affect my future. It's just so confusing, but yeah 100% I've made a statutory declaration or an application to make one? Anyways this is 100% happening and all I have to do is wait until they get back to me with a date.

You need to be 100% sure of this - reason being there is a time deadline of a number of days to do an SD after the time you 1st know that you had been taken to court unaware - with that clock ticking you do not want this to be wrong and miss that deadline (21 days? may say on gov.uk website).... I don't know how you establishe the correct facts - there are ppl on here who know about court process who may be able to add more info for you to consider - if they spot the thread.

 

[hogroast61]

You need to be 100% sure of this - reason being there is a time deadline of a number of days to do an SD after the time you 1st know that you had been taken to court unaware - with that clock ticking you do not want this to be wrong and miss that deadline (21 days? may say on gov.uk website).... I don't know how you establishe the correct facts - there are ppl on here who know about court process who may be able to add more info for you to consider - if they spot the thread have done the statutory declaration already but I don't know how the declaring myself unsure of being guilty or not might affect me in the future. I was able to book an appointment with citizens advice through one of the debt free advice people I called so I'll check with them. Technically the last day to have a statutory declaration is tomorrow so

Technically I've done the statutory declaration already within the 21 days since I knew about the case. I have pleaded "I don't know". I don't know how this might affect me in the future. I think pleading guilty might not give me the chance to explain my situation? Hope someone who can help spots the threat I'm quite helpless

 

[JBuchananGB]

If you are absolutely certain the that the SD is in force, then the next thing to do is contact TfL, because all they will do is restart the proceedings at the court, knowing that you are fully aware that this is happening. You refer to receiving a TfL "fine" last year which you did not pay, and where you missed the deadline for appeal by one day. You best hope is that TfL revert to the point where they issued you with the "fine", and you take it from there. Have you got the original documentation related to that penalty? Please upload it with personal details obscured, in order that experts here can give further advice.
PS. One of the documents you uploaded previously has a person's name near the bottom. Maybe you should remove it and replace it with that blacked out.

 

[island]

Technically I've done the statutory declaration already within the 21 days since I knew about the case.

Have you filled out a form, on paper, and signed it in front of a lawyer or judge, who also signed it?

This is the only way to do a statutory declaration. They cannot be done online, over the phone, by post, or electronically.

We really do need to get clarity on this.

I have pleaded "I don't know". I don't know how this might affect me in the future. I think pleading guilty might not give me the chance to explain my situation? Hope someone who can help spots the threat I'm quite helpless

"I don't know" is treated as equivalent to not guilty.

If you have correctly made a statutory declaration with this plea, the next stage is your case will be listed back at court, and you will receive a summons requiring you to attend court on a specified date. On that date, you will go on trial where the train company will be invited to show evidence that you committed whatever offence they say you did.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Did you actually do whatever you were fined for?

The thing is, if you didn't do it, our advice may be different from if you did do it.

Sorry to bang on about this, but it’s really important.

If you didn’t do it (enter a compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket) then you are not guilty: that’s what you should plead and you should go to court and make TfL demonstrate that you did it - which they won’t be able to do if you really are not guilty.

But if you DID do it, then you should plead guilty, but produce details that show how little money you have, and how little income you are receiving. The fine will be based on your income and I gather that AS LONG AS YOU CO-OPERATE the court will let you pay a fine by instalments.

 

[hogroast61]

If you are absolutely certain the that the SD is in force

Have you filled out a form, on paper, and signed it in front of a lawyer or judge, who also signed it?

This is the only way to do a statutory declaration. They cannot be done online, over the phone, by post, or electronically.

We really do need to get clarity on this.

I called HMCTS and they have confirmed the statutory declaration is in progress. I did it through the phone answering the questions the person on the phone was making.

You refer to receiving a TfL "fine" last year which you did not pay, and where you missed the deadline for appeal by one day

I didn't miss the appeal since in the webpage and fine itself it says 21 days from the day after the fine but all the correspondence they had with me they said 21 days from the day of the fine. Which is contradictory and confusing.

You best hope is that TfL revert to the point where they issued you with the "fine", and you take it from there. Have you got the original documentation related to that penalty? Please upload it with personal details obscured, in order that experts here can give further advice.

I do have it but I'm unable to access it at the moment, I will in the evening. I have a screenshot of it saying 21 days from the date after the fine was issued. Can they really revert it now that it has gone to court and will go to court again? What am I supposed to say when I call them? If I can pay it now and forget about all of this or...? Can they take me to court even if I pay it now if they agree? I might still struggle to pay 80£ but I'm in a better situation I was last year. Thank you for letting me know about the name by the way.

If you didn’t do it (enter a compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket) then you are not guilty: that’s what you should plead and you should go to court and make TfL demonstrate that you did it - which they won’t be able to do if you really are not guilty

My appeal was:

In the oyster card that I was using you can see my trip from the beginning. I took the bus ** then the ***. I had to work for an hour and then took the overground from Finchley road to Kentish town west. Due to the sequence of events I must have not completely tapped in Finchley road but because there's no barriers I didn't notice. A ticket inspector asked for my oyster and gave me a penalty fare because of not having a valid ticket. I did tap when I got out of Kentish town west, the second location where I had to work. In case the fine is not revoked, I do not have the money to pay for it and I'd like to be instructed on what the next steps will be. Regards."

This is what happened. The issue is that I was using an oyster I found on the floor and had credit on it. Later I found out it is illegal to do this so I stopped, but yeah this fine is linked to the oyster and I didn't have a valid ticket so well, I am still guilty, even double guilty for using the oyster but it's not what I'm being possibly convicted for so I don't know if it'll matter. For what I've read TFL are not very understanding with this. I'm happy to plead guilty if the fine is reduced and I can pay in installments and I've "always" being cooperative but when they ignored my emails asking for clarification and then told me contradictory information, I agreed to pay if I received clarification which I guess they're not obliged to give

 

[30907]

Thanks for uploading those documents, which all relate to your conviction under TfL Byelaws (the good news - this is not a disaster, though it will be costly!)
Is there any paperwork relating to the actual incident, whether issued at the time or later?

 

[hogroast61]

Thanks for uploading those documents, which all relate to your conviction under TfL Byelaws (the good news - this is not a disaster, though it will be costly!)
Is there any paperwork relating to the actual incident, whether issued at the time or later?

I have a very long and thin paper with all the details I said in my previous post that is on hold until it gets approved by a moderator that I won't be able to post it until the evening. If there's any details in particular you'll like to know let me know and I'll remember them.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Royal Mail classes this an "informal redirect" and their policy is it is deemed to be unpaid mail so a grey card will be issued asking for £5 before the letter can be delivered.

It is free if the post is unopened. Only if it is opened will it be charged.

 

[Gloster]

I called HMCTS and they have confirmed the statutory declaration is in progress. I did it through the phone answering the questions the person on the phone was making.


I didn't miss the appeal since in the webpage and fine itself it says 21 days from the day after the fine but all the correspondence they had with me they said 21 days from the day of the fine. Which is contradictory and confusing.

I do have it but I'm unable to access it at the moment, I will in the evening. I have a screenshot of it saying 21 days from the date after the fine was issued. Can they really revert it now that it has gone to court and will go to court again? What am I supposed to say when I call them? If I can pay it now and forget about all of this or...? Can they take me to court even if I pay it now if they agree? I might still struggle to pay 80£ but I'm in a better situation I was last year. Thank you for letting me know about the name by the way.



My appeal was:

In the oyster card that I was using you can see my trip from the beginning. I took the bus ** then the ***. I had to work for an hour and then took the overground from Finchley road to Kentish town west. Due to the sequence of events I must have not completely tapped in Finchley road but because there's no barriers I didn't notice. A ticket inspector asked for my oyster and gave me a penalty fare because of not having a valid ticket. I did tap when I got out of Kentish town west, the second location where I had to work. In case the fine is not revoked, I do not have the money to pay for it and I'd like to be instructed on what the next steps will be. Regards."

This is what happened. The issue is that I was using an oyster I found on the floor and had credit on it. Later I found out it is illegal to do this so I stopped, but yeah this fine is linked to the oyster and I didn't have a valid ticket so well, I am still guilty, even double guilty for using the oyster but it's not what I'm being possibly convicted for so I don't know if it'll matter. For what I've read TFL are not very understanding with this. I'm happy to plead guilty if the fine is reduced and I can pay in installments and I've "always" being cooperative but when they ignored my emails asking for clarification and then told me contradictory information, I agreed to pay if I received clarification which I guess they're not obliged to give

I think that the highlighted sentence is significant.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is what happened. The issue is that I was using an oyster I found on the floor and had credit on it.

What sort of Oyster Card? This is very important. It’s not an offence in and of itself to use an Oyster Card not registered to you.

 

[island]

It is free if the post is unopened. Only if it is opened will it be charged.

That’s not correct.

I called HMCTS and they have confirmed the statutory declaration is in progress. I did it through the phone answering the questions the person on the phone was making.

Thank you for confirming that you have not made a statutory declaration. You need to attend a court or solicitor to do this. That is the next step you need to take.

What sort of Oyster Card? This is very important. It’s not an offence in and of itself to use an Oyster Card not registered to you.

This is also important. It’s potentially an offence under Byelaw 20 (2) as opposed to (or as well as) Byelaw 17. We would also want to understand whether there was credit on the card.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

This is also important. It’s potentially an offence under Byelaw 20 (2) but not Byelaw 17.

As I am not a lawyer, I could well be wrong here, but won't a breach of 20(2) mean that the requirement in 17(1) for a VALID ticket (my emphasis) is met?

(Byelaws at https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/railway-byelaws.pdf)

The issue is that I was using an oyster I found on the floor and had credit on it. Later I found out it is illegal to do this so I stopped

For the OP: in my view this means that you need to progress as if guilty. That means firstly making sure that you have taken all the steps to make a statutory declaration so that the case can be reheard. Then you will need to fill in the forms that explain how little your income is. This won't make the fine go away - but should reduce it, and importantly should get the bailiffs costs off your bill.

 

[Elecman]

I called HMCTS and they have confirmed the statutory declaration is in progress. I did it through the phone answering the questions the person on the phone was making.

Have you ACTUALLY signed the SD form infront of either a Solicitor and delivered it to the Magistrates Court in person or signed it at the Magistrates Court yet? If not the you HAVENt actually completed the SD yet!, and the 21 day clock is still running.

 

[island]

As I am not a lawyer, I could well be wrong here, but won't a breach of 20(2) mean that the requirement in 17(1) for a VALID ticket (my emphasis) is met?

(Byelaws at https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/railway-byelaws.pdf)

Yes. I wrote my reply before heading onto the northern line at London Bridge and realised at Bank that it was possibly inaccurate, but couldn’t edit until I got 5G at Archway

 

[Haywain]

Have you ACTUALLY signed the SD form infront of either a Solicitor and delivered it to the Magistrates Court in person or signed it at the Magistrates Court yet? If not the you HAVENt actually completed the SD yet!, and the 21 day clock is still running.

If teh OP has contacted the court to do so, and the court has advised them that they will be notified when it is convenient for the court to deal with the matter, that should, surely, stop the clock running?

 

[Elecman]

If teh OP has contacted the court to do so, and the court has advised them that they will be notified when it is convenient for the court to deal with the matter, that should, surely, stop the clock running?

My understanding is the document has to be physically signed by the declarer, all I can think of in this case is the court officer has filled the paperwork in and either posting it to the OP or its waiting for them at the relevant court for signature

 

[Haywain]

My understanding is the document has to be physically signed by the declarer,

Mine too, but our courts are understaffed and overworked so I can quite see them preferring to handle such matters by appointment.

 

[MadMarsupial]

My understanding is the document has to be physically signed by the declarer, all I can think of in this case is the court officer has filled the paperwork in and either posting it to the OP or its waiting for them at the relevant court for signature

Agreed Elecman. The official government website explaining "statutory declarations" is clear that it has to be physically signed see point three of the website link below https://www.gov.uk/appeal-magistrates-court-decision/if-you-did-not-know-about-your-case

 

[island]

If teh OP has contacted the court to do so, and the court has advised them that they will be notified when it is convenient for the court to deal with the matter, that should, surely, stop the clock running?

There is no statutory mechanism to “stop the clock running” as such – but the magistrates may accept a declaration out of to me if there is good reason.

I have learned that what appears to be the current practice, in my area at least, for people phoning to request a statutory declaration is that the basic details are taken and then sent to a court, and the court clerk then contacts the defendant with a suitable time to actually swear and sign the declaration. Enforcement of unpaid fines is then supposed to be called off. If the defendant has indicated an intent to plead not guilty, the appointment will be set for a time when the railway prosecutor is expected to be present. The SD is then taken late with the “good reason” being that the court has asked the defendant to come in at some future date.

This process will allow the SD and plea to be taken and trial to be commenced without further delay.

So the revised advice to the OP is (1) decide whether you are pleading guilty or not guilty because the court won’t accept a “don’t know”, and (2) watch carefully for when the court contacts you with a date to come in.

 

[Deafdoggie]

That’s not correct.

You'd better tell Royal Mail then.If you ask them, or at any Post Office, they'll tell you to put the new address on and pop it in the post box. If its unopened there's no charge. If it has been opened then it needs new postage.
Not only do they say that, but I can confirm they are doing it regularly and consistently. Indeed, never have they not done that.

Just for completeness, there are some letters that can't/won't be redirected. However, none of them apply in this case.

 

[hogroast61]

I think that the highlighted sentence is significant.

But they didn't know and I guess still don't know. I'd hapily tell them, I am not going to lie. They fined me because of not having a valid ticket, not because of the Oyster card.

I do have it [the original documentation related to the penalty] but I'm unable to access it at the moment, I will in the evening

I haven't had the time to look for it, sorry everyone and thank you for your time. I know where it is but it's going to take me a bit to find it and I can't do it at the moment. Tomorrow at some point I should be able to post the whole ticket here. In the meantime I had these two pictures in my phone of the fine (attachements). I sent the first one to IRCAS.

What sort of Oyster Card? This is very important. It’s not an offence in and of itself to use an Oyster Card not registered to you.

We would also want to understand whether there was credit on the card.

It didn't have someone's face on it. It did have credit to travel.

If teh OP has contacted the court to do so, and the court has advised them that they will be notified when it is convenient for the court to deal with the matter, that should, surely, stop the clock running?

That's what I believe. If court is telling me that it's done and I just have to wait for them to contact me, why would this not be true?

If the defendant has indicated an intent to plead not guilty, the appointment will be set for a time when the railway prosecutor is expected to be present.

What if the defedant has pleaded guilty, would the defendant have a "hearing" ? Would they have to pay the compensation + fine + costs + victim surcharge? I understand that is not of the ""next court appointment"" that I'm going to have to decide if I'm guilty or not, just if they accept my statutory declaration, correct me if I'm wrong. So am I going to have a ""second court appointment"" where I can explain my situation and I'll be judged if I were to plead guilty? Apologies about the lack of proper terminology.

 

[island]

That's what I believe. If court is telling me that it's done and I just have to wait for them to contact me, why would this not be true?

It can be easy to mishear or misunderstand things that are said on the phone, especially when unfamiliar technology is used. But there's no need to dwell on that now. Let's look at the Next step, which is that the court will give you a date, time, and courthouse to attend at. You must be present at the given day, time, and place. When called up you will have to give your name, address, and date of birth. Make sure you give your current address so that you do not have a repeat of what got you to this situation. You'll then be asked some questions about the statutory declaration, given a warning that it's a serious offence to lie on the declaration, and asked to sign it and pass it up.

What if the defedant has pleaded guilty, would the defendant have a "hearing" ? Would they have to pay the compensation + fine + costs + victim surcharge?

If you choose to plead guilty, you will receive a criminal conviction. You will be ordered to pay a fine, compensation, costs, and surcharge. The court will ask for your weekly income. It will also ask if there is anything you want to say in mitigation. I would not suggest mentioning picking up a random Oyster card off the floor; you could mention you thought you had touched in but there was no ticket gate so you must have not done so properly.

You have said you have no income or your income is only benefits. That means the court will assess your income at the minimum of £120. They are likely to give a fine of half that amount, reduced by a third for a guilty plea, bringing it down to £40. The surcharge is £16. The costs (from the previous letter) are £250 and the compensation is £4.90. That gives you a total to pay of £310.90.

The court will usually ask you if you're in a position to pay the full sum within 28 days. If you are, then that is what you will be ordered to do. If not, you can ask to pay in instalments over 6-12 months, probably for this sort of amount they will look to do £10 a week, which the court must order to be deducted from your pay/benefits. Sometimes they'll let you pay it yourself via a website portal, payment card at convenience stores, or the like.

I understand that is not of the ""next court appointment"" that I'm going to have to decide if I'm guilty or not, just if they accept my statutory declaration, correct me if I'm wrong.

You are wrong. When you complete the statutory declaration at court, you will immediately be asked to plead guilty or not-guilty. There is no "I don't know" option.

Tomorrow at some point I should be able to post the whole ticket here. In the meantime I had these two pictures in my phone of the fine (attachements).

Thank you. The penalty fare notice states that the reason for issue is that your Oyster card wasn't touched in properly. So either TfL doesn't know that you used a stolen* Oyster card, or do not care. There is no obligation for you to tell them about this, and I would recommend you do not.

So am I going to have a ""second court appointment"" where I can explain my situation and I'll be judged if I were to plead guilty? Apologies about the lack of proper terminology.

As said above, there will be no second appointment if you plead guilty. You will be dealt with right there and then. If you choose to plead not guilty, they will proceed there and then if the railway prosecutor is present. If they are not, the case will be adjourned until some future date so that the railway prosecutor can be present.

*theft by finding

 

[hogroast61]

especially when unfamiliar technology is used

The technology is not unfamiliar, the court procedures are.

If you choose to plead guilty, you will receive a criminal conviction.

What if I choose to plead not guilty? I guess I'd be found guilty anyways (because for whatever reason it was I still didn't have a valid ticket) but, is there a chance for the judge to cancel the whole thing due to my income and the whole appeal situation even though I committed the offence?

You will be ordered to pay a fine, compensation, costs, and surcharge. The court will ask for your weekly income. It will also ask if there is anything you want to say in mitigation. I would not suggest mentioning picking up a random Oyster card off the floor; you could mention you thought you had touched in but there was no ticket gate so you must have not done so properly.

Are they not going to question me about the oyster? It hasn't been used since this incident I believe. I actually don't think I even know where it is.

You have said you have no income or your income is only benefits. That means the court will assess your income at the minimum of £120.

I don't receive benefits. My weekly income is not really stable, at the moment I'm getting paid around 60-90£ a month which is enough to eat. I have 4,309£ in savings which will cover my rent until big money comes in from the scholarship. I believe this makes me qualify for https://www.gov.uk/get-help-with-court-fees which could be of help for paying the a part of the total future fine, right?

As said above, there will be no second appointment if you plead guilty. You will be dealt with right there and then. If you choose to plead not guilty, they will proceed there and then if the railway prosecutor is present. If they are not, the case will be adjourned until some future date so that the railway prosecutor can be present.

Let me make sure I get this right. So I might be judged right there, next "court appointment" and there's no need for TFL to be there I plead guilty. If I plead not guilty an actual hearing (?) will be held, where TFL will be there and acuse me of not having a valid ticket and will "bring proof" of that, and then I'll defend myself from the accusations explaining the situation and why I didn't have a valid ticket right?

But if I plead guilty, can I still explain the situation? With situation I mean not only my income and personal economy but also how I got the fine itself because of human mistake and why I didn't pay it before because the contradictions from IRCAS. It just doesn't make any sense to me that in the fine itself and their webpage it says 21 days AFTER and they kept saying to me 21 DAYS FROM. It's 1 day difference, 1 day that is right when I appealed. I still believe this is unfair and I deserve some kind of clarification. If they had clarified I'd have paid, I said this in an email to them. I don't know what The Law would think of all of this obviously.

There is no obligation for you to tell them about this, and I would recommend you do not.

I'd prefer not to mention it but I don't want them to think I'm being uncooperative/hiding things in the slightest.