Fare Evasion - SWR

[DavidS1]

Hi,

I was recently caught by a ticket guard at Waterloo station. I was buying a shorter ticket & the guard noticed this and stopped me.

I was sent an email asking about my railcard, as there were about 10 purchases (4 months ago) where I used my railcard, but it had expired. I renewed my railcard (3 months) and didn't think anything of it. I have also bought tickets from a shorter station (probably 10 times in a year) to reduce my train fares by £2 each time. I'm worried this is will be shown by my purchase history.

I have recently been invited to an interview regarding my ticket irregularities and am not sure how to proceed. I don't want a criminal record as I would lose my job :/

To be honest, I didn't realise this was a criminal offence, I thought it was civil (like a parking ticket). I know this is not an excuse, but I will not be making this mistake again.

Should I get a solicitor? Should I be honest? Am I likely to get a criminal record or can I settle out of court?

 

[30907]

The advice on this thread is relevant:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...lway-first-offence.239900/page-2#post-6051683

SWR have enough evidence for a conviction under the Railway Byelaws (which will not get you a criminal record, and may or may not interest your employer), and they might decide to pursue that option if you do not attend the interview.

 

[Haywain]

I was sent an email asking about my railcard,

Have you responded to that email?

 

[DavidS1]

Have you responded to that email?

Yes, I responded showing evidence of my railcards

 

[Gloster]

Just for clarity, am I correct in thinking the following:

- You bought a number of tickets with a railcard discount around four months ago, but did not have a valid railcard at the time. You renewed the railcard around three months ago.

- You have also been buying tickets that did not cover the whole of your journey. Are these the tickets mentioned above that were bought with a railcard discount, both before and after you renewed your railcard?

Others will give advice on this: I am not an expert.

 

[skyhigh]

I have recently been invited to an interview regarding my ticket irregularities and am not sure how to proceed. I don't want a criminal record as I would lose my job :/

Should I get a solicitor? Should I be honest? Am I likely to get a criminal record or can I settle out of court?

You essentially have 2 choices - go to the interview, or don't. If you choose to go, do not go alone.

The interview is solely to gain evidence that they may not already have to pursue either a larger settlement or prosecution. They are not offering it to make things better for you. The toss up is that if you choose not to co-operate, they likely have enough evidence to bring a prosecution regarding the event you were stopped for. If you do go to the interview, they might be more open to a settlement but you need to be careful that you don't give away information that they're not already aware of.

If you choose to go I would personally at least consider legal representation.

Yes, I responded with attachments showing evidence of my railcard (literally just screenshots)

They will probably notice tickets were bought before the validity of the railcard, and might want evidence of your previous railcard.

 

[DavidS1]

Just for clarity, am I correct in thinking the following:

- You bought a number of tickets with a railcard discount around four months ago, but did not have a valid railcard at the time. You renewed the railcard around three months ago.

- You have also been buying tickets that did not cover the whole of your journey. Are these the tickets mentioned above that were bought with a railcard discount, both before and after you renewed your railcard?

Others will give advice on this: I am not an expert.

To clarify:

- Yes, I bought around 10 tickets where I did not have a valid railcard (unknowingly it has expired, although I know this is not a valid excuse). I renewed mine about 1.5 months after my original one expired and have been using this since.

- There's been a few times where I've bought tickets that did not cover the whole journey. However, I only do this occasionally. I believe a couple of the purchases were during the time my railcard had expired.

I completely understand what I've done is wrong and just want to pay what I owe without going to court (as I am very worried about job prospects) . I will never make this mistake again!!
Very stressful.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum:

There are two issues at play here:

1. You've purchased discounted tickets without a railcard
2. You've short fared

Then to make matters worse you've short fared on at least 20 occasions. Normally a train comany writes to people who are caught asking for them for their version of events before deciding how to proceed. Most of the time they offer an out of court settlement what has happened is relatively minor, they haven't come to their attention before and the person engages with the process.

If SWR are asking you to go to a formal interview it suggests to me that they are taking your case much more seriously. Others have given advice about the pros and cons of attending and whether you should be accompanied. If I was in your position and I decided to attend the interview, I would want to be accompanied by a solicitor.

I completely understand what I've done is wrong and just want to pay what I owe without going to court (as I am very worried about job prospects)

To be blunt you've broken the law, multiple times. How serious do you think the level of offending should be before a case ends up in court?

 

[Mak1981]

Regarding your railcards, are both the expired one and the new one digital ones?

As if the old was was a plastic type one then I would strongly recommend speaking to a lawyer first to explore your rights regarding self incrimination before speaking swr

 

[DavidS1]

Regarding your railcards, are both the expired one and the new one digital ones?

As if the old was was a plastic type one then I would strongly recommend speaking to a lawyer first to explore your rights regarding self incrimination before speaking swr

Yes - they are both digital ones

Welcome to the forum:

There are two issues at play here:

1. You've purchased discounted tickets without a railcard
2. You've short fared

Then to make matters worse you've short fared on at least 20 occasions. Normally a train comany writes to people who are caught asking for them for their version of events before deciding how to proceed. Most of the time they offer an out of court settlement what has happened is relatively minor, they haven't come to their attention before and the person engages with the process.

If SWR are asking you to go to a formal interview it suggests to me that they are taking your case much more seriously. Others have given advice about the pros and cons of attending and whether you should be accompanied. If I was in your position and I decided to attend the interview, I would want to be accompanied by a solicitor.


To be blunt you've broken the law, multiple times. How serious do you think the level of offending should be before a case ends up in court?

I know, I honestly am very stupid. Defo learnt my lesson!!!

How much is a solicitor and where can I find a good one??
I do not have much money to my name, so am worried that if I have have to pay for a solicitor & the train fine I will go into debt.

Completely understand, do you know the worst case scenario of going to court? I honestly don't know what to do. If I tell my parents they will disown me ://///

 

[WesternLancer]

How much is a solicitor and where can I find a good one??

Post 35 of this thread covers this well

Misuse of Freedom Pass - Advice

I'm not clear what that would achieve, and why it wouldn't antagonise needlessly. Isn't the kind of offence obvious, especially given the admission? It’s very important we understand what, if any, offences the OP is suspected of. How one can comment on “an offence” without being told what it...

www.railforums.co.uk

I do not have much money to my name, so am worried that if I have have to pay for a solicitor & the train fine I will go into debt.

I sympathise, but that is the 'risk' you take if you evade fares

Completely understand, do you know the worst case scenario of going to court? I honestly don't know what to do. If I tell my parents they will disown me ://///

Only you know the answer ref your parents, but perhaps there is more of a chance of them helping support you through this if you tell them about it honestly. But I do understand the risk of this.

Other threads do set out the costs that court fine would result in so you can get a feel for that cost if you look (it would be hundreds of pounds IIRC, not thousands, though the amount of fares evaded would have an impact. But there would also be a criminal record. Depending on what you want to do for work in future the impact of that could limit job choices and that might have a larger long term impact on you financially. This might influence your decision about getting a solicitor to help. You could try getting quotes from local ones if you ask how much they would charge to represent you in this matter.

See post 44 of this thread below which relates to the evasion of a £17.50 train fare (total costs of fine etc from court looks like £645, but I don't think say 10 £17.50 fares evaded would result in court fine of 10 x £645)

fare evasion conviction

However the rest of info is correct. Just to be clear, the Date of Birth was wrong (and not just one digit?) on the DBS, but your address was correct? If so, are you confident that you would have received any post during this period, ie you hadn't moved, or shared a letter box? If the address...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[DavidS1]

The advice on this thread is relevant:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...lway-first-offence.239900/page-2#post-6051683

SWR have enough evidence for a conviction under the Railway Byelaws (which will not get you a criminal record, and may or may not interest your employer), and they might decide to pursue that option if you do not attend the interview.

Is Bylaw conviction the worse case scenario, or could they convict me for something worse?

If I don't attend the interview, will I automatically go to court? I'm not sure what to do

 

[DavidS1]

Post 35 of this thread covers this well

Misuse of Freedom Pass - Advice

I'm not clear what that would achieve, and why it wouldn't antagonise needlessly. Isn't the kind of offence obvious, especially given the admission? It’s very important we understand what, if any, offences the OP is suspected of. How one can comment on “an offence” without being told what it...

www.railforums.co.uk

I sympathise, but that is the 'risk' you take if you evade fares



Only you know the answer ref your parents, but perhaps there is more of a chance of them helping support you through this if you tell them about it honestly. But I do understand the risk of this.

Other threads do set out the costs that court fine would result in so you can get a feel for that cost if you look (it would be hundreds of pounds IIRC, not thousands, though the amount of fares evaded would have an impact. But there would also be a criminal record. Depending on what you want to do for work in future the impact of that could limit job choices and that might have a larger long term impact on you financially. This might influence your decision about getting a solicitor to help. You could try getting quotes from local ones if you ask how much they would charge to represent you in this matter.

See post 44 of this thread below which relates to the evasion of a £17.50 train fare (total costs of fine etc from court looks like £645, but I don't think say 10 £17.50 fares evaded would result in court fine of 10 x £645)

fare evasion conviction

However the rest of info is correct. Just to be clear, the Date of Birth was wrong (and not just one digit?) on the DBS, but your address was correct? If so, are you confident that you would have received any post during this period, ie you hadn't moved, or shared a letter box? If the address...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks for the information, I really do appreciate it.

Quick question - Do you know of any other examples where people were offered interviews and the outcomes. i.e. outcome from attending or outcome for non attendance

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for the information, I really do appreciate it.

Quick question - Do you know of any other examples where people were offered interviews and the outcomes. i.e. outcome from attending or outcome for non attendance

There was a case on here I recall a while back - over a year I think - suggested it was concluded with a settlement - BUT reading another recent SWR thread a poster suggested that info may have not been genuine.
Many advisors on here suggest not going to these interviews without a solicitor, and if you can't afford that ensure you go with a friend who can be a witness to it, or someone else you know who may be able to help you in that situation.
I can not recall the detail of cases like this very well however. But if you do not go to the interview it is hard to imagine they would then decide to let you offer or offer a settlement put pf court without you producing some persuasive argument / letter to them as to why they should do that.

Imagine you worked in their fare evasions department - what would you do?

 

[Titfield]

There was a case on here I recall a while back - over a year I think - suggested it was concluded with a settlement - BUT reading another recent SWR thread a poster suggested that info may have not been genuine.
Many advisors on here suggest not going to these interviews without a solicitor, and if you can't afford that ensure you go with a friend who can be a witness to it, or someone else you know who may be able to help you in that situation.
I can not recall the detail of cases like this very well however. But if you do not go to the interview it is hard to imagine they would then decide to let you offer or offer a settlement put pf court without you producing some persuasive argument / letter to them as to why they should do that.

Imagine you worked in their fare evasions department - what would you do?

Having just found this Gray Hooper Fare Evasion Case Studies it certainly appears that getting a solicitor involved has some advantages.

I particularly note that they were able to get pre interview disclosure of the evidence against the client.

 

[Hadders]

Having just found this Gray Hooper Fare Evasion Case Studies it certainly appears that getting a solicitor involved has some advantages.

I particularly note that they were able to get pre interview disclosure of the evidence against the client.

Although a website promoting a firm of solicitors is going to show cases where they had a positive impact. They're hardly going to mention a case where one of their clients ended up being prosecuted.

 

[Titfield]

Although a website promoting a firm of solicitors is going to show cases where they had a positive impact. They're hardly going to mention a case where one of their clients ended up being prosecuted.

Yes I think that is axiomatic. Nevertheless they have had some success and are familiar with the matters in issue.

 

[DavidS1]

Is it worth me sending an email owning up to my mistakes?

 

[AstowJ]

Is it worth me sending an email owning up to my mistakes?

Have you received a letter? If not, just wait. If so, feel free to post the letter here and people can give some valuable advice.

 

[DavidS1]

Yes, I have been invited to an interview with SWR

Have you received a letter? If not, just wait. If so, feel free to post the letter here and people can give some valuable advice.

 

[UserM]

Yes, I have been invited to an interview with SWR

I’m this case it is absolutely imperative that before you say or do anything further in relation to this matter, that you seek independent legal advice.

Once they are availed of all the facts, they will be able to instruct you what is in your interest. But I state it is very important that you seek this legal advice before you engage further with SWR.

This has now become a very serious matter, that could have large and long lasting consequences for you. No matter what SWR say, they are not trying to help you. They will use anything that you say against you.

In terms of seeking legal advice, any high street criminal defence solicitor will be able to offer such advice. Indeed some may offer a free or reduced price initial consultation for you to discuss this case.

But I stress please do not make any further contact with SWR until you have sought such legal advice.

 

[DavidS1]

I just spoke to a solicitor and they told me to attend, confess to everything and ask for an out of court settlement.

I’m this case it is absolutely imperative that before you say or do anything further in relation to this matter, that you seek independent legal advice.

Once they are availed of all the facts, they will be able to instruct you what is in your interest. But I state it is very important that you seek this legal advice before you engage further with SWR.

This has now become a very serious matter, that could have large and long lasting consequences for you. No matter what SWR say, they are not trying to help you. They will use anything that you say against you.

In terms of seeking legal advice, any high street criminal defence solicitor will be able to offer such advice. Indeed some may offer a free or reduced price initial consultation for you to discuss this case.

But I stress please do not make any further contact with SWR until you have sought such legal advice.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, I have been invited to an interview with SWR

Do NOT attend an interview without legal representation, or, if you do, say nothing in response - and that means answer NO questions other than confirming your name and details. You are not under arrest and do not have to attend. The purpose of the interview is to extract a confession or more information from you that can be admitted in evidence.

You must now think carefully about the best way forward. If you decide to write a statement and submit that instead, you may wish to get a solicitor involved in drafting it, or you can post your version here and we can check it for you (note that this forum is not a substitute for qualified legal advice).

 

[DavidS1]

Do NOT attend an interview without legal representation, or, if you do, say nothing in response - and that means answer NO questions other than confirming your name and details. You are not under arrest and do not have to attend. The purpose of the interview is to extract a confession or more information from you that can be admitted in evidence.

You must now think carefully about the best way forward. If you decide to write a statement and submit that instead, you may wish to get a solicitor involved in drafting it, or you can post your version here and we can check it for you (note that this forum is not a substitute for qualified legal advice).

I spoke with a solicitor today and they stated the best course of action is to attend, confess and ask for an out of court settlement.

I asked about further incriminating myself but they mentioned they did the leading case in this area.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, I have been invited to an interview with SWR

As stated above, take legal advice before agreeing to attend an interview. You may be able to obtain free legal advice and, possibly, assistance through sources such as your household insurance, trade union membership or membership of a professional body. You should look into any or all of these first as you have stated that you don't have much money.

 

[UserM]

I just spoke to a solicitor and they told me to attend, confess to everything and ask for an out of court settlement.

Well as long as you are confident in the advice that they gave you. That is what you should do. Although I may caution you that in my opinion this leaves you at high risk of facing further and more severe legal consequences down the line. Though I must caution although I have legal training I have no experience in the matters of criminal defence. (Plus advice on this forum is never a substitute for paid qualified legal advice)

It is important to note that SWR are not obliged to offer you any Out of Court Settlement.

May I ask what other advice the solicitor gave you, did you ask if they could attend such an interview with you?? I would almost certainly want them by my side, as you have no idea what evidence they may bring up.

These are all just some of the questions you just satisfy yourself with, although no one other than you can decide the best course of action for yourself.

 

[madjack]

We've had several recent threads like this (where SWR have invited people to interview after noticing a series of evasion) and at present none of us knows what SWR's intent is in doing this. I see where advisors are going when they say not to attend an interview or not to comment - however I would note that:

• SWR appear to be pragmatic and I don't recall ever seeing a thread where SWR *did* take a passenger to court.
• SWR's web page on fare evasion has a similar message, saying "we may prosecute serious or persistent offenders" but stating that they will "try to avoid" taking you to court.
• We do have some evidence of posters engaging with other companies which has resulted in financial settlement: this one with Thameslink (attending against legal and forum advice) has stayed with me, and we have a recent example with Southeastern where a poster "confessed" by phone and was offered a settlement.
• If I were SWR and minded to prosecute in this case I would have enough evidence already (assuming that the OP was honest with the employee and confessed to the single offence when they were caught) - although of course further evidence could be got at interview to recover higher costs. In a case like this (relatively low value evasion), if I were SWR, I might be inclined to interview the passenger, recover fares and costs directly to the company, and by giving them a fright/threat of future court action make sure that they paid their fares in full in the future.

However I don't think anyone's mentioned that another poster did get a solicitor to act for them in a similar situation with SWR recently, with a positive result and not attending interview. Thread here.

 

[Hadders]

To repeat what I said earlier in the thread I would not attend an interview without legal representation. The interview is not a cheery chat over tea and biscuits, it'll be under caution (i.e. 'you do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.') Being read that statement is sobering enough in itself and enough to put someone not used to being in that situation onto the back foot.

If the advice from a solicitor you have contacted is to go and confess then I'd be getting another solicitor quick sharp.

 

[some bloke]

What is the date of the interview?

Have you agreed to attend, or is there a deadline for you to agree?

You could phone a couple more solicitors (while naturally trying to avoid abusing their free time). Decisions on whether to hire solicitors for particular tasks may depend on your priorities and finances.

 

[AlterEgo]

I spoke with a solicitor today and they stated the best course of action is to attend, confess and ask for an out of court settlement.

A solicitor advising you to go into a PACE-conducted interview, under caution, without representation is...bonkers. This interview is for the purpose of collecting evidence under a strict protocol which can be used against you in court. It is a very serious matter. Do not go into it without representation.

You risk not only making a full confession which may be contrary to your interests, but also at risk of being questioned further and admitting to offences you didn't even commit.

I repeat what I said in Post 23.