Fast Lines through Stations

[edwin_m]

Also on the GWR, Oxford had, and still has, platforms on loops with through lines, although very few if any regular passenger trains have not been booked to stop there.

I believe freights are "looped" on the middle tracks for passenger trains to overtake.

Loops for stopping passenger trains aren't generally very helpful. Depending on signalling, the stopping train may have to wait 5min or more to ensure the non-stop gets a clear run through. That might have been acceptable in the days of steam but it doesn't really represent a good service today, and there are very few places where a stopping train is overtaken by a non-stop train in loops that are only just as long as the platform.

At Durham, and probably other places, the through line is basically there because the alignment of the platform would slow a non-stopping train down too much. Ely and Nottingham are examples where a platform that was formerly on a loop has been built out for trains to call on what used to be the through line.

 

[Rescars]

I believe freights are "looped" on the middle tracks for passenger trains to overtake.

Loops for stopping passenger trains aren't generally very helpful. Depending on signalling, the stopping train may have to wait 5min or more to ensure the non-stop gets a clear run through. That might have been acceptable in the days of steam but it doesn't really represent a good service today, and there are very few places where a stopping train is overtaken by a non-stop train in loops that are only just as long as the platform.

At Durham, and probably other places, the through line is basically there because the alignment of the platform would slow a non-stopping train down too much. Ely and Nottingham are examples where a platform that was formerly on a loop has been built out for trains to call on what used to be the through line.

There is a built-out platform southbound at Kensington Olympia. Is this for the same reason perhaps?

 

[devon_belle]

Loops for stopping passenger trains aren't generally very helpful. Depending on signalling, the stopping train may have to wait 5min or more to ensure the non-stop gets a clear run through.

Anyone who has travelled on a local train calling at Dawlish Warren will know this all too well.

 

[randyrippley]

Interesting to compare Lancaster - with passing loops, with Preston (which doesn't) and Carnforth (which didn't in the platforms)

 

[30907]

Interesting to compare Lancaster - with passing loops, with Preston (which doesn't) and Carnforth (which didn't in the platforms)

Preston did have a pair of Through lines on the west side according to signalling diagrams - not Goods lines as I had thought. But of course it had multiple platforms and six running lines from the south.

 

[edwin_m]

Preston did have a pair of Through lines on the west side according to signalling diagrams - not Goods lines as I had thought. But of course it had multiple platforms and six running lines from the south.

That would be for the excursion traffic as I mentioned above (I should probably have broadened it to cover other seasonal holiday services). Every summer Saturday, a series of trains would have headed for Blackpool from whichever town was having its Wakes week, making full use of the four tracks to Kirkham and the flying junction beyond where it split into three separate routes. They would have had no reason to stop at Preston, and indeed if they did the following ones would very quickly be queueing back.

Those from the north would actually pass through twice, southbound through the East Lancashire side (east of the current station and long since demolished) then making a 180 degree turn via various junctions to pass through northbound on the west side a few minutes later.

 

[Harvester]

Northallerton has a low level avoiding line for traffic to Teesside and the Durham coast, but only two tracks for the ECML trains through the station. It did once have a down loop, with an Island platform for northbound traffic to use and also an eastern bay. However I never witnessed either in use during many visits back in the 1960s.

 

[mike57]

On the York - Manchester route Crossgates and Dewsbury both had through tracks, not sure when Crossgates went, I remember it being 4 tracks. Dewsbury retained the eastbound track but lost its westbound one, and fast services do pass stoppers here, not sure if its in the timetable, or just when there are delays.

 

[irp]

Anyone who has travelled on a local train calling at Dawlish Warren will know this all too well.

Hah! Experienced the knock-on effect many times when waiting for the up train to Exeter St Davids at StarCross. Real Time Trains and Trasky get a lot of use!

 

[Harvester]

This seems to get an airing about every couple of years (I went back to find the video link!)

The Railway Observer (Oct 1960 issue) reported that three coaches were slipped at Bicester from the 17:10 Paddington- Wolverhampton on 9 Sept 1960.

RO Quotation: The slip portion on the last train consisted of slip coach W7374W, SK E1390E and CK W15121, and was successfully dropped at Bicester.

Was the video footage from an earlier date, or is the RO report incorrect?

 

[Gloster]

The Railway Observer (Oct 1960 issue) reported that three coaches were slipped at Bicester from the 17:10 Paddington- Wolverhampton on 9 Sept 1960.

RO Quotation: The slip portion on the last train consisted of slip coach W7374W, SK E1390E and CK W15121, and was successfully dropped at Bicester.

Was the video footage from an earlier date, or is the RO report incorrect?

The footage of Railway Roundabout’s ‘last slip coach’ item was taken over several days. On the actual last day I think that the camera crew travelled from Paddington to Bicester on the train, so only a few of the before departure and after arrival, as well of some of the journey, shots are from the very last day. The RO report is believed correct.

 

[75A]

Havant used to have a through line in the down direction into which on 2 occasions we were put and asked to shut down because the relief crew (Eastleigh I think) were not there.
This was a stone train from Ardingly to the West Country hauled by a pair of 33's.

 

[jfollows]

Havant used to have a through line in the down direction into which on 2 occasions we were put and asked to shut down because the relief crew (Eastleigh I think) were not there.
This was a stone train from Ardingly to the West Country hauled by a pair of 33's.

Havant had an up through line also,I think it was there when I lived in the area in the 1980s.
I think I only used the down main on the 00:30 MO Waterloo-Portsmouth, and by 1994 it was the only through line (the up one was not longer there, or I've mis-remembered and it never was!).

EDIT Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havant_railway_station) says that the down main was removed in "December 2006" but the up main was removed well before then, it was there starting in 1938.

 

[75A]

I couldn't remember if there was an up main or not in my time (1980/83) on the railway.

 

[devon_belle]

I couldn't remember if there was an up main or not in my time (1980/83) on the railway.

From pictures I have seen, it was there in 1984, but gone by 1987.

 

[Barnsley]

On the York - Manchester route Crossgates and Dewsbury both had through tracks, not sure when Crossgates went, I remember it being 4 tracks. Dewsbury retained the eastbound track but lost its westbound one, and fast services do pass stoppers here, not sure if its in the timetable, or just when there are delays.

Dewsbury never had 2 through lines, the space in the middle was actually a platform! The remains of the subway are still there underneath, an Eastbound through line was added in the 80s, I think, the Huddersfield to Leeds stopper waits here for 6 mins every hour to allow the Liverpool to Hull to overtake

 

[Taunton]

The footage of Railway Roundabout’s ‘last slip coach’ item was taken over several days. On the actual last day I think that the camera crew travelled from Paddington to Bicester on the train, so only a few of the before departure and after arrival, as well of some of the journey, shots are from the very last day. The RO report is believed correct.

The "camera crew" on Railway Roundabout were normally the programme presenters, and serial enthusiasts and authors, John Adams and Pat Whitehouse. They wrote in one of the Roundabout annuals how they would rehearse the footage, then on each occasion have to act and present as if they were just turning up for the first time!

Unlike the artwork in Awdry's book, which seems to show a whole TV studio set of cameras brought in, I believe Pat Whitehouse just turned up with his cine camera, which was later incorporated into the programme.

 

[Senex]

Dewsbury never had 2 through lines, the space in the middle was actually a platform! The remains of the subway are still there underneath, an Eastbound through line was added in the 80s, I think, the Huddersfield to Leeds stopper waits here for 6 mins every hour to allow the Liverpool to Hull to overtake

The 25" OS maps seem to shew that it did have both through lines and platform loops — see NLS collection at https://maps.nls.uk/view/125646080

 

[jfollows]

From pictures I have seen, it was there in 1984, but gone by 1987.

Thank you, that makes sense. I moved to Portsmouth in September 1984 but by 1987 I was using Fareham when I went to London and after that Petersfield, so I'd stopped going through Havant frequently. I only used the train to go to London because I drove to work at the end (then) of the M275 and, later, North Harbour, so I very rarely went through Havant after 1986.

 

[kraiken]

There is a built-out platform southbound at Kensington Olympia. Is this for the same reason perhaps?

If this is the bay platforms, some were filled in for Motorail. It was considered as a location for regional Eurostar car terminal and maintained immigration facilities as a backup for Waterloo International. It would be great if it were the London equivalent of Marne-la-Vallée-Chessy but it would be a very slow meandering service. Perhaps that's OK for a future low cost venture though.

 

[edwin_m]

If this is the bay platforms, some were filled in for Motorail. It was considered as a location for regional Eurostar car terminal and maintained immigration facilities as a backup for Waterloo International. It would be great if it were the London equivalent of Marne-la-Vallée-Chessy but it would be a very slow meandering service. Perhaps that's OK for a future low cost venture though.

It used to have two through tracks and platform loops, but the eastern platform was built out so there are now only three tracks (plus the Underground).

 

[Rescars]

It used to have two through tracks and platform loops, but the eastern platform was built out so there are now only three tracks (plus the Underground).

I see you call this the eastern platform, I used southbound. Both of us are accurate, but is the up line or the down line?

 

[jfollows]

I see you call this the eastern platform, I used southbound. Both of us are accurate, but is the up line or the down line?

The southbound line is the up line. Of course, they’re both reversible lines but the “normally southbound” line is the up line.

 

[30907]

Havant had an up through line also,I think it was there when I lived in the area in the 1980s.
I think I only used the down main on the 00:30 MO Waterloo-Portsmouth, and by 1994 it was the only through line (the up one was not longer there, or I've mis-remembered and it never was!).

The SR rebuilt Havant for the Portsmouth electrification, and initially (most of) the expresses didn't stop there - in later years it was only the summer Saturday extras.

 

[mike57]

The 25" OS maps seem to shew that it did have both through lines and platform loops — see NLS collection at https://maps.nls.uk/view/125646080

Regarding Dewsbury I thought it had two through lines, but its a hazy memory, I had a quick look to see if there were any pictures, but couldn't find any.

 

[Rescars]

The southbound line is the up line. Of course, they’re both reversible lines but the “normally southbound” line is the up line.

Many thanks for this clarification. It isn't immediately obvious. Presumably this means a southbound Southern train is an up train at Kensington, but a down train by the time it reaches Clapham Junction. Even though Overground trains have no need of fast avoiding lines (reflecting the OP!), do they change from being up trains to down trains more than once as they work their way around London?

 

[jfollows]

Many thanks for this clarification. It isn't immediately obvious. Presumably this means a southbound Southern train is an up train at Kensington, but a down train by the time it reaches Clapham Junction. Even though Overground trains have no need of fast avoiding lines (reflecting the OP!), do they change from being up trains to down trains more than once as they work their way around London?

Sectional Appendix SW220/002 page 816 of https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs Sept 23/Kent Sussex Wessex Sectional Appendix September 2023.pdf
You can follow it through for the other lines you mention. Up to Latchmere Junction and the up Latchmere Curve until it joins the Ludgate lines at 3m58ch out of Waterloo, from there it's down into Clapham Junction.

 

[Rescars]

Sectional Appendix SW220/002 page 816 of https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs Sept 23/Kent Sussex Wessex Sectional Appendix September 2023.pdf
You can follow it through for the other lines you mention. Up to Latchmere Junction and the up Latchmere Curve until it joins the Ludgate lines at 3m58ch out of Waterloo, from there it's down into Clapham Junction.

View attachment 145396

Many thanks for your definitive response. Much appreciated.

 

[jfollows]

Stoke-on-Trent used to have an up main (30mph) and an up platform line (15mph) made worse by approach control I think. Now it's 45mph into the only up line. The up main existed into the Pendolino introduction because the 07:00 Manchester-Stockport-Euston used it, but it made sense to remove it and get rid of the slow speed approach for up services into the station, all the rest of which (except for a rogue early morning Crewe-Rugeley EMU service for a while) all stopped anyway. The up main was removed in 2009 which also allowed platforms to be lengthened according to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoke-on-Trent_railway_station).
There wasn't a down main in my lifetime, so I don't know if there ever was. There used to be goods lines which went round the west side of the station, which I used once back in the 1970s, but they were removed soon after then.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Interesting to compare Lancaster - with passing loops, with Preston (which doesn't) and Carnforth (which didn't in the platforms)

The Lancaster loops are for stopping trains and non stop trains can pass at speed on the centre lines.

That would be for the excursion traffic as I mentioned above (I should probably have broadened it to cover other seasonal holiday services). Every summer Saturday, a series of trains would have headed for Blackpool from whichever town was having its Wakes week, making full use of the four tracks to Kirkham and the flying junction beyond where it split into three separate routes. They would have had no reason to stop at Preston, and indeed if they did the following ones would very quickly be queueing back.

Those from the north would actually pass through twice, southbound through the East Lancashire side (east of the current station and long since demolished) then making a 180 degree turn via various junctions to pass through northbound on the west side a few minutes later.

The through lines were mainly used for goods trains but every weekday late afternoon the through lines were cleared and there was at least one passenger train that used them - Euxton ROF to Blackpool. I can't think that the through lines were anything but slow lines.
I remember holiday/excursion trains that joined the through line at Skew Bridge then proceeded slowly on to Preston - on one occasion I saw, from the adjoining embankment, a Stanier Crab on a passenger train ran past the junction to the through line then stopped and reversed back over the junction then continued on the through line.
The reversal via Lostock Hall etc took more than a few minutes - twenty minutes when I did the reversal on a Blackpool to Newcastle train - was initially very worried that I could not get off at Preston and the train would continue on via Blackburn and onwards. As an aside I wondered why the coal trains to Fleetwood off the East Lancs lines did not go through Lostock Hall then cross over the WCML and join the down slow then the through line rather than crossing all running lines on the flat immediately N of Preston station - perhaps an indication of how there were fewer passenger trains in those days bearing in mind how slow those coal trains moved.