FCC Farringdon to St Albans

[gouldja]

Hi,
this is my 1st post here, unfortunately not a positive one.
I have just returned from St Albans station,
at 17:27 i got on the Bedford bound train (going to St Albans), with a valid marked Carnet ticket (Standard Class).
At Kings Cross a large number of passengers boarded the train and a number of people (4 including me) moved into the 1st class section standing up. Shortly after (St Albans being the next stop) i sat on the edge of the seat (all but 3 of the other seats were empty).
5 minutes into the journey were were asked to produce our tickets, I got mine out immediately and was the 1st checked.
The gentleman checking the ticket was courteous and asked me to pay a find (it was hard to hear but i think it was approximately £34), i asked if i had the right to appeal and pay at a later date, which he advised me i did (21 days to appeal). I did initially appeal to his better nature on the ground of the heat (28 degrees and the fact there was little standing room), but he advised as he had managed to shuffle down the corridor there was room for one more (I could not really argue with that logic).
I provided my details (Name, Address and Phone number), at one point he asked me a number of questions, do i have a ticket (Yes), did i intend to fare evade (no), do i have the money to pay (I said i had a credit card so yes).
I asked him about the appeals process and he said I would get a slip with the details.
When he left (after checking nobody else - which i understand is no ground for excuse), i was given a very small form which to my surprise only contained a reference number and an address of the Prosecutions Department, and a notice about sending in season tickets within 14 days (which is not relevant).

After he left i looked up on google and realised i would still have the right to appeal if i paid, i tried to get to the guard but the train was too busy, and waiting on the platform after (he did not get off the train), as to attempt to pay.

With the slip and no details about the fine (i have contacted FCC) i do not see any way of paying this fine now, which having read up on the forum sounds like unintentionally refused to pay, which at no point was discussed by myself or the staff member.

If it aids the case i took a number of photos of the train clearly showing the standing area in 1st class to be full and the train to be very full.

I am very concerned now that i am not able to discuss this with anyone at FCC prior to being prosecuted (I have been trying to find contact number). The only reference i have is a 6 digit number and the Prosecutions Dept address in Kings Cross.

I have been travelling for 3 1/2 years on this train and is the 1st time of any such occurrence, i understand i was in the wrong having read the T&C on the FCC website, but believed (allbeit incorrectly) that as the train was totally full (including standing area) it was acceptable to sit in an empty 1st class seat. I wish now to pay my fine prior to appealing but i see no way of doing this.
Obviously myself and family are very concerned about any potential proceedings against me.

with regret, any advise appreciated about next steps

 

[yorkie]

I'm confused.

Did he issue you a Penalty Fare?

Or were your details taken for consideration by the prosecutions department for a possible prosecution (which could, if FCC proceeded with the prosecution, and if a settlement was not reached, potentially result in a fine, and possibly a criminal record depending on the legislation used)?

I suggest reading our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide, there is a lot of information in there which may answer questions you have. If there's any part of it you don't understand, please don't hesitate to ask.

 

[gouldja]

I had believed i was being issues with a penalty fare, and had a discussion with the gentleman which seemed to indicate this.
It was very overcrowded and loud which made any read discussion hard.
Howver from your last post i do not belive i have a penatly fare.
the only documentation i have is a small slip about 10cm by 2cm, which says

"If faily to carry, passenger to send a copy of their season ticket within 14 days to the address below. Failure to do so may lead to a prosecution

Passenger May Travel
From... Farringdon
to.. St Albans
(Time)... 17:41
On (date in full) Thur 3rd July 2014 only

Send to: Prosecution Dept. Room 114, East Side offices, Kings Cross Station, London N1C 4AP
{and a 6 digit number in the top left}"

I do not have any information about who/where to pay and/or amount.

Would it be worth popping to the station tomorrow to chat with one of the staff to see if i can pay the fine?

any advise really appreciated, i felt at the time like I was sensible disputing as the train was so packed and hot, but now wish i could just end the matter, and understand I should paid the fine. The man i spoke with was very friendly and cheerful, but feel if i was provided a bit more information at the time in regards to what it meant i would have taken a different approach (eg paid on the spot)

 

[KneeOn]

That's a Ticket Irregularity Report not a Penalty Fare. Did he place you under caution (you do not have to sayingthing... anything you do say will be given in evidence) while conducting the series of questions?

Did you get a name at all?

The next steps are the company will write to you asking for your version of events and an explanation of what happened.

I'd suggest that you check back on here - if this is all true it sounds like he's not told you the process that is being undertaken and you might be able to use that as a defense to pay just the fare for your journey which wasn't paid. I can't guarantee that but something is a miss here - either you've forgotten/not disclosed or the RPI in question has made a blunder/needs retraining.

 

[gouldja]

if its worth adding the gentleman took my ticket and stapled to the form he filled in and the form i was provided he asked me to use to exit the station

 

[furlong]

but believed (allbeit incorrectly) that as the train was totally full (including standing area) it was acceptable to sit in an empty 1st class seat.

It is acceptable provided no 1st class ticket/pass holders need the seats (at any point on the journey, so you might have to give up the seat if people board the train later) BUT you are supposed to seek permission from on-train staff. (If such staff refuse you permission you should ask for the reason, then make a complaint if appropriate.)

Take a read of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage paragraph 39. (Others reading this should take note that Season Ticket holders are excluded from this provision.)

 

[KneeOn]

It is acceptable provided no 1st class ticket/pass holders need the seats (at any point on the journey, so you might have to give up the seat if people board the train later) BUT you are supposed to seek permission from on-train staff. (If such staff refuse you permission you should ask for the reason, then make a complaint if appropriate.)

Take a read of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage paragraph 39.

I politely disagree - specific to this customers situation at least. RPI's don't work a single train up and then a single train down, it'd be impossible to enforce the "unless a seat is needed by a first class passenger" part. We jump on and off, what is to stop some one saying "another inspector told me I could sit in here, it was empty before".

 

[Stigy]

It is acceptable provided no 1st class ticket/pass holders need the seats (at any point on the journey, so you might have to give up the seat if people board the train later) BUT you are supposed to seek permission from on-train staff. (If such staff refuse you permission you should ask for the reason, then make a complaint if appropriate.)

Take a read of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage paragraph 39. (Others reading this should take note that Season Ticket holders are excluded from this provision.)

Might be worth pointing out that the NRCoC can't form the basis of a criminal prosecution, and that the fact is permission should be sought, if it isn't then they're committing an offence under Byelaw 19. This includes is somebody asks the Guard and they refuse their permission.

As Yorkie says though, would be good to know if a Penalty Fare was issued.

 

[gouldja]

It is acceptable provided no 1st class ticket/pass holders need the seats (at any point on the journey, so you might have to give up the seat if people board the train later) BUT you are supposed to seek permission from on-train staff. (If such staff refuse you permission you should ask for the reason, then make a complaint if appropriate.)

Take a read of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage paragraph 39.

Thank you for both replieed I have read the section

Travel in the right train(s) and the right part of the train(s) - otherwise you could be
charged an excess or Penalty Fare. You may only change from standard class to
first class areas if a member of staff in that train gives permission or you have paid
the appropriate additional fare.

I am certain i fall into this category, reading this I did not (could not) get permission.

I am happy at this stage to fully hold my hand up and would pay the penalty fair but i see no way of doing so.

What am i potentially liable for here? If it helps they did take my ticket on record, which was a valid Carnet ticket, which was marked and the system will clearly show this has only been used once and that was approximately 10 minutes prior to the fine. The slip i was provided with was given to me which enabled me to exit the station without further fines.

Would I be better off going to the station/emailing/writing FCC apologies and asking to pay the fine. Or should i write with details of the situation (inc photos) to the address detailed in the slip i was provided

 

[island]

I'm a bit confused. Trains from Farringdon to St Albans do not call at Kings Cross.

 

[gouldja]

I'm a bit confused. Trains from Farringdon to St Albans do not call at Kings Cross.

sorry i meant St Pancreas (i am not a Londoner), the stations do join together underground.

 

[gouldja]

Might be worth pointing out that the NRCoC can't form the basis of a criminal prosecution, and that the fact is permission should be sought, if it isn't then they're committing an offence under Byelaw 19. This includes is somebody asks the Guard and they refuse their permission.

As Yorkie says though, would be good to know if a Penalty Fare was issued.

thank you very much this is very good to know, I have replied earlier (but my post have not been approved yet), I do not believe a penalty fare was issued, but at the time i was of the understanding that one had been. I should have pushed more on the issue with the guard, but the train was very packed and it was hard to full understand.

 

[SPADTrap]

I'm a bit confused. Trains from Farringdon to St Albans do not call at Kings Cross.

I imagine OP knows it more as 'Kings Cross St Pancras' and just omitted the latter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

St Pancreas.

 

[gouldja]

That's a Ticket Irregularity Report not a Penalty Fare. Did he place you under caution (you do not have to sayingthing... anything you do say will be given in evidence) while conducting the series of questions?

Did you get a name at all?

The next steps are the company will write to you asking for your version of events and an explanation of what happened.

I'd suggest that you check back on here - if this is all true it sounds like he's not told you the process that is being undertaken and you might be able to use that as a defence to pay just the fare for your journey which wasn't paid. I can't guarantee that but something is a miss here - either you've forgotten/not disclosed or the RPI in question has made a blunder/needs retraining.

Yes i do have a 1st name and photo of the gentleman's badge, unfortunately it has not come out very clearly and but it does show his name and has enough of his body/lower face that it would be very easy to identify. he took my photo license (which i offered as it had my postal address on it). Apart from the taking of my detail the only process i was involved in was him asking me to reply to a number of questions (as listed above) and a final question where i was asked if i would like to comment, which I replied "No I will appeal separately" then i asked about the appeal process and he told me to send a letter to the address on the slip mentioned.

I have tried to look up what a "Ticket Irregularity Report" means I would be liable for. I am inclined to head to the station tomorrow and speak with the platform staff who are usually very helpful, but i am concerned i will not be able to simply pay any fine as a do not have any details.

it sounds like i should write to FCC (would their be any value in going down to chat with them, or would it be a different department), as opposed to the appeals board? If this would be advised should I simply write to their HQ address?

 

[yorkie]

...i am concerned i will not be able to simply pay any fine as a do not have any details....

As far as I can tell, you've not been charged a Penalty Fare, nor have you been asked to pay an out of court settlement at this stage, and certainly it's not yet got to the stage where a fine could be issued (as only a court can issue a fine). Did you have a read of our Fares Guide?

 

[gouldja]

i have read the guides you have listed below, the information is really useful and I will certainly quote the relevant portions in any mailed response.

Some of the laws (as probably most laws) are very confusing, some suggest I was totally in the wrong and others suggest that it was not really an offence. Having read on balance I am of the opinion i should (and would now if it was an option) just pay the fine to be done with it.

Please could you put my mind at rest in regards to the previous posts, does a "Ticket Irregularity Report" mean anything more or less serious than a penaltly fare and would you recommend i sit tight and wait for a letter or pro-activaly contact either FCC or the Prosecutions department immediately with my version of events.

I am (as I am sure many people are here asking similar question are) just concerned about the possibility of some criminal proceeding and the impact that may have on future work etc...

 

[Bald Rick]

I was one of the other 'three' (actually 6, but I'll let you off) passengers sitting in the compartment, assuming you were in the 'airline' seat next to the left window in coach 8. We were all checked, as were the 3 or 4 standing up.

Firstly you were lucky. The guy checking the tickets is the nicest of all the Inspectors I see on the line, and is the only one (genuinely) that I have ever seen let anyone off.

Secondly, you were on the one northbound train a day that doesn't have the doors between standard and first. This probably doesn't hold any water with 'the authorities' but I feel desperately sorry for those who genuinely think it is still standard; the only difference being a small antimacassar and a couple of stickers you can't see if it is a busy train. Which this was.

Third, the RPI concerned is softly spoken. Despite being one seat away I couldn't hear what either of you were saying (I'm very nosey), but got the impression there was some discussion, you were apologetic, and that you were willing to pay. So I think the nature of the discussion, the way you approached it and the inspector you had leads me to believe he didn't issue you a penalty fare. But I wouldn't rely on my hunch, go with what others have said above.

I'm sure you've learned your lesson, do let us know what (if anything) happens next...

 

[bb21]

A Ticket Irregularity Report is merely a document staff submit for a matter to be further investigated. There is no implication of potential consequences, so it is hard to say whether it will be worse than a Penalty Fare.

In light of what the poster above me said, you do have my sympathy. It was steamy this afternoon and I can imagine how easy it must have been to encroach on the First Class area if the train is exceptionally busy, especially if you are on that particular train with nothing to divide the two classes of accommodation.

You never know, they might even drop the case if you explain fully what happened when they write to you. (Unlikely I know since this is FCC we are talking about, but you never know.)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . does a "Ticket Irregularity Report" mean anything more or less serious than a penaltly fare and would you recommend i sit tight and wait for a letter or pro-activaly contact either FCC or the Prosecutions department immediately with my version of events. . . .

A Ticket Irregularity Report (TIR) does not require any action to be taken by you, the passenger. I would expect the letters TIR might appear on the receipt which you were given. A TIR is used for several purposes, such as investigating a wrongly printed ticket where the ticket is retained for inspection and the passenger is permiited to complete their journey. Sometimes the TIR is issued where the passenger has clearly attempted to travel without the correct ticket and an investigation might begin, but if that were to apply to you, then you would be contacted again. At present, there would be nothing for you to do IF it is a TIR.

But I can't be absolutely positive that it is a TIR, from what you've told us, and so you can't absolutely rely on my assessment.

 

[gouldja]

@Bald Rick, yes that was me, i agree the inspector seemed a nice guy and at no point did i feel he was being unreasonable. It does not surprise me you could not hear what he was saying as he was very quiet.

@bb21 @DaveNewcastle, thanks for your comments, i do think this must be a TIR, however there is no indication of this on the slip i have received, there are no markings on either side other than that mentioned in the earlier post (bar a six digit number).

Certainly lesson learned, i wish i had paid up front, but i was of the understanding from my chat with the inspector that i could either pay or appeal, under the assumption i would receive a parking fine style ticket with 21 days to pay etc... and a chance to appeal.

Appreciated all who have taken the time to offer advice, i will sit tight now until i hear back from FCC and keep this thread posted with any development

 

[island]

Yes, a Penalty Fare Notice is issued face to face on the spot with a minimum payment required of the single fare due. A TIR may lead to any number of other things, including a warning letter, prosecution, or no further action. My instinct is that the latter is what may end up happening here, as you seem to have passed the attitude test.

 

[KneeOn]

Yes i do have a 1st name and photo of the gentleman's badge, unfortunately it has not come out very clearly and but it does show his name and has enough of his body/lower face that it would be very easy to identify. he took my photo license (which i offered as it had my postal address on it). Apart from the taking of my detail the only process i was involved in was him asking me to reply to a number of questions (as listed above) and a final question where i was asked if i would like to comment, which I replied "No I will appeal separately" then i asked about the appeal process and he told me to send a letter to the address on the slip mentioned.

I have tried to look up what a "Ticket Irregularity Report" means I would be liable for. I am inclined to head to the station tomorrow and speak with the platform staff who are usually very helpful, but i am concerned i will not be able to simply pay any fine as a do not have any details.

it sounds like i should write to FCC (would their be any value in going down to chat with them, or would it be a different department), as opposed to the appeals board? If this would be advised should I simply write to their HQ address?

The RPI let you take a photo of his badge? If i'm asked for details its my first name and badge number. They can see but not take a photo of my licence!

A ticket irregularity report is a report (duh) which revenue staff submit if a passenger hasn't got a ticket and one or more of the following apply:

1) The passenger has no means to pay at least a single fare
2) The passenger refuses to pay at least the single fare (in your case, this is you! although it is unintentional)
3) The passenger is known to revenue staff as being a repeat offender and therefore disposal through a Penalty Fare isn't appropriate
4) There is definite intent to avoid paying (short ticketing, turn backs, barrier jumping etc)

Currently you are not being asked to make any payment. They will write to you first. As for out comes it depends on which route FCC take and then legislation is used if they go down a court route (which I would seriously doubt) it varies again.

The point is, a TIR is a very vague start to a process because it is simply a report. You could be totally let off with no payment should you satisfy FCC.

I'd be interested to see where this goes. You weren't duly informed about what was happening and you had means to pay. If you've been told a Penalty will be issued an then a TIR is I wonder how much weight that would hold in court.

Were you cautioned before the interview?

 

[gouldja]

Were you cautioned before the interview?

Thanks for the reply, in regards to the above question I cannot recall the exact wording but he asked the questions after 1st asking if he could ask me a number of questions and then saying "I'm going to ask you a series of questions, which will be recorded and may be used later as evidence". I did not have any issues with the questions. I did not feel at any point I has been given any sort of official warning - and felt the tone of the guard was actually positive.

I believe you are correct that this will be interpreted as

2) The passenger refuses to pay at least the single fare (in your case, this is you! although it is unintentional)

which is unfortunate as I had asked the guard if I could hold back payment until i can appeal (clearly the wrong thing to do), but at no point was I offered the opportunity to buy a single fare, or told the consequences of not paying part or full of the penalty.

I have written a very long detailed account of events, and assume I will be asked to send these off at a later date to FCC. I am unsure if i should post to the address on the slip provided or just leave it at this stage.

Is it possible i was issued a penalty fare and the guard did not give me my copy?

The small form provided to me was only done so after I asked what I needed to produce to exit the station as the guard kept my ticket.

I will keep the post updated now on any further progress as hope any updates may be of interest/useful to others. In future i will wait for a quiet train to avoid the hassle.

 

[TEW]

Thanks for the reply, in regards to the above question I cannot recall the exact wording but he asked the questions after 1st asking if he could ask me a number of questions and then saying "I'm going to ask you a series of questions, which will be recorded and may be used later as evidence". I did not have any issues with the questions. I did not feel at any point I has been given any sort of official warning - and felt the tone of the guard was actually positive.

If they wish to use the interview as evidence in court then you would have had to have been cautioned. The caution is the familiar one you heard on TV; 'You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.'

Did the revenue inspector state that caution to you at all? If he didn't it means that the interview he conducted will not be able to be used as evidence in court, but it does not prevent the train company prosecuting you, relying on other evidence.

 

[gouldja]

If anything was said it was certainly not that extensive, he did say he had some questions and answers asked be used in any future case. I may be being naive but i would not have any objection to any of the answers being used at any point, they were all simply questions which i replied to honestly, and would say the same if asked.

I have spoken with the train company prosecution department who have advised a penalty fare was not issued. At this stage I should sit tight and I will most likely get a letter asking for my version of events, based upon my response one of three outcomes will occur,

1/ The Matter will be dropped
2/ A Penalty Fare will be issues
3/ The will decide to prosecute

I was told a small proportion fall into the 1st category, and a small into the latter.

 

[tony6499]

If anything was said it was certainly not that extensive, he did say he had some questions and answers asked be used in any future case. I may be being naive but i would not have any objection to any of the answers being used at any point, they were all simply questions which i replied to honestly, and would say the same if asked.

I have spoken with the train company prosecution department who have advised a penalty fare was not issued. At this stage I should sit tight and I will most likely get a letter asking for my version of events, based upon my response one of three outcomes will occur,

1/ The Matter will be dropped
2/ A Penalty Fare will be issues
3/ The will decide to prosecute

I was told a small proportion fall into the 1st category, and a small into the latter.

A penalty fare won't be issued as it is past that stage

 

[Class377]

Genuine question - with FCC losing the franchise in 2 months, what would be their options with regards to prosecutions after this date?

 

[Bishopstone]

Secondly, you were on the one northbound train a day that doesn't have the doors between standard and first. This probably doesn't hold any water with 'the authorities' but I feel desperately sorry for those who genuinely think it is still standard; the only difference being a small antimacassar and a couple of stickers you can't see if it is a busy train. Which this was..

Is this a 377/2 diagram?

They, and their 377/1 sister units on Southern, are honey traps. It's very difficult to tell who has made a genuine mistake, and who is chancing it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is this a 377/2 diagram?

They, and their 377/1 sister units on Southern, are honey traps. It's very difficult to tell who has made a genuine mistake, and who is chancing it.

Yep, the 12 car 1W94 in the evening.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Genuine question - with FCC losing the franchise in 2 months, what would be their options with regards to prosecutions after this date?

While the Company continue to exist then it may prosecute an offence.