FCC getting soft

[drbdrb]

Bloke behind me can't produce a valid ticket, but has a stack of old carnets for the opposite direction. All he has for this direction is a carnet where the date hasn't been filled in.

Woman in front of me doesn't have a ticket, only the receipt from the machine.

In both cases from the RPI, a muttered "OK, don't do it again".

 

[SPADTrap]

Bloke behind me can't produce a valid ticket, but has a stack of old carnets for the opposite direction. All he has for this direction is a carnet where the date hasn't been filled in.

Woman in front of me doesn't have a ticket, only the receipt from the machine.

In both cases from the RPI, a muttered "OK, don't do it again".

That is great.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I have first hand experience of many instances of passengers being given the benefit of discretion when unable to produce the appropriate ticket for their journey, including ticket values of over £400.
I've observed the same staff charging passengers who hold tickets for the wrong service.

Others will tell you of the same experinces.

Now add in another factor: that the person best able to distinguish a delberate fare dodger from a clumsy or befuddled but honest passenger will be the Inspector on the front line.

That should lead you to the conclusion that those who come on this forum seeking advice after having been detected without a valid ticket and with some special plea of 'staff rudeness', personal illness or 'poor service' have already been the subject of a balanced if critical assessment. And have failed.

Those who come on here are clearly not going to be representative of the travelling public with invalid tickets. In fact, the last time someone on the train I was on was as unwell as has been reported by people on here who have forgotten where they boarded or forgotten to buy a ticket, the staff stopped the train at the next station until an ambulance could be obtained to take them to a place of care. The southbound ECML came to a standstill for nearly an hour - there was no suggestion of charging the passenger with the cost of a replacement ticket.

Lets not call it "getting soft", but rather : continuing to make balanced assessments.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Lets not call it "getting soft", but rather : continuing to make balanced assessments.

Have also witnessed FCC ignoring 'difficult' cases ( a couple of stroppy ticketless oiks blatanlty gouding them) and going for the 'soft' cases (young girl who was in a rush and boarded without a ticket).

I take it the same crowd will just be TUPE'd over to the new franchise - so regular FCC commuters can expect no change in the revenue 'tactics' ?

 

[Moonshot]

I have first hand experience of many instances of passengers being given the benefit of discretion when unable to produce the appropriate ticket for their journey, including ticket values of over £400.
I've observed the same staff charging passengers who hold tickets for the wrong service.

Others will tell you of the same experinces.

Now add in another factor: that the person best able to distinguish a delberate fare dodger from a clumsy or befuddled but honest passenger will be the Inspector on the front line.

That should lead you to the conclusion that those who come on this forum seeking advice after having been detected without a valid ticket and with some special plea of 'staff rudeness', personal illness or 'poor service' have already been the subject of a balanced if critical assessment. And have failed.

Those who come on here are clearly not going to be representative of the travelling public with invalid tickets. In fact, the last time someone on the train I was on was as unwell as has been reported by people on here who have forgotten where they boarded or forgotten to buy a ticket, the staff stopped the train at the next station until an ambulance could be obtained to take them to a place of care. The southbound ECML came to a standstill for nearly an hour - there was no suggestion of charging the passenger with the cost of a replacement ticket.

Lets not call it "getting soft", but rather : continuing to make balanced assessments.

Now here is what I call a very reasonable and intelligent post.

 

[jon0844]

I've seen very sloppy and unfair situations, and clear entrapment, but it's always been a small minority and raising a complaint might do something in terms of retraining or a staff bulletin sent out. Beyond that it's out of your control.

Govia could train staff to be tougher or go for more of a customer service roll.

Oh and I think most of us can probably tell who is trying it on and who isn't, but it's not for you to decide. If you fancy a go, it's probably a fairly easy way into the railway but not very well paid.

The FCC RPI that I had problems with and was moved around eventually ended up becoming a driver. Or at least he passed, so I don't know if he is still there.

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

 

[Bayum]

I have first hand experience of many instances of passengers being given the benefit of discretion when unable to produce the appropriate ticket for their journey, including ticket values of over £400.
I've observed the same staff charging passengers who hold tickets for the wrong service.

Others will tell you of the same experinces.

Now add in another factor: that the person best able to distinguish a delberate fare dodger from a clumsy or befuddled but honest passenger will be the Inspector on the front line.

That should lead you to the conclusion that those who come on this forum seeking advice after having been detected without a valid ticket and with some special plea of 'staff rudeness', personal illness or 'poor service' have already been the subject of a balanced if critical assessment. And have failed.

Those who come on here are clearly not going to be representative of the travelling public with invalid tickets. In fact, the last time someone on the train I was on was as unwell as has been reported by people on here who have forgotten where they boarded or forgotten to buy a ticket, the staff stopped the train at the next station until an ambulance could be obtained to take them to a place of care. The southbound ECML came to a standstill for nearly an hour - there was no suggestion of charging the passenger with the cost of a replacement ticket.

Lets not call it "getting soft", but rather : continuing to make balanced assessments.

Surely it would be better in this case to employ a 'one size fits all' approach, as opposed to relying on the very subjective and potentially biased view of the conductor?

For instance, do some TOCs offer their workers bonuses for catching out fare dodgers? Do all conductors have the same experience with which to be able to tell a true fare dodger and one who isn't?


This is unfortunately one of the very issues that I don't like on this site. Someone comes onto the site with a question about something they may feel very upset about and be in a distressing position, but are ultimately seen as guilty first and foremost.

 

[jon0844]

Staff quite rightly think about conflict avoidance, hence some people getting let off. It's frustrating, but wait until the TOC does a proper sting with lots of their 'best' staff and perhaps BTP. People don't get away with anything then.

The plain clothed checks (not seen one in ages) are also very effective as you can get right up close to those who are quite happy to talk not having a ticket, fancying a 'free upgrade to first class' and doing other dodgy things. I think more checks should be done like this, and I know RPIs quite enjoy dress down day (their choice of clothing can be hilarious, like the few that liked to dress extremely chavvy!).

I was quite annoyed when one person was let off with a penalty fare, even after having admitted that he wouldn't have bought a ticket if not checked and hadn't attempted to buy one before travel. He was French (there's a reason for saying this!) and one of those that had the £20 in his hand, being very smug as if he knew the score.

I asked the RPI after (away from the person, I might add) why he'd done that as it was a clear intent to evade the fare, and he suggested he was likely a tourist. Hmm, a tourist that knew to have £20 ready and was constantly looking behind him before the RPI boarded at Finsbury Park right in front of him! Are we normally so welcoming to tourists? Maybe I need to practice my GSCE French from now on, or at least speaking English with an accent.

 

[trevmonk]

Sat next to a woman yesterday on an FCC service who had left her Network Card at home. The RPI simply took her details and asked her to send a photocopy within 7 days. He admitted "We have changed the way we deal with this kind of situation recently", so perhaps they have become more reasonable in the dying days of their franchise.

 

[jon0844]

Yeah, staff may not care much right now as they wonder how they'll be transferred over, what is going to happen next etc.

That and FCC management possibly not caring either, so they can just take it easy until September!

 

[Tibbs]

Yeah, staff may not care much right now as they wonder how they'll be transferred over, what is going to happen next etc.

That and FCC management possibly not caring either, so they can just take it easy until September!

If they tank their numbers now, the 'increase in the number of people caught' will be a great press release for the new franchise.

 

[SPADTrap]

Yeah, staff may not care much right now as they wonder how they'll be transferred over, what is going to happen next etc.

That and FCC management possibly not caring either, so they can just take it easy until September!

Neither.

 

[LexyBoy]

Sat next to a woman yesterday on an FCC service who had left her Network Card at home. The RPI simply took her details and asked her to send a photocopy within 7 days.

Cue her posting on here in a couple of weeks when she gets a notice of intent to prosecute letter...

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's all about discretion, always has been and always will be. SouthEastern HighSpeed RPIs have a terrible reputation on here too, but my colleague last week was let off when she travelled on the wrong day using an Advance fare. Work's booking system had screwed up, they could tell she was genuine, best buy a new ticket at St Pancras. Good service.

he suggested he was likely a tourist. Hmm, a tourist that knew to have £20 ready and was constantly looking behind him before the RPI boarded at Finsbury Park right in front of him! Are we normally so welcoming to tourists?

That's pragmatism. You can theoretically chase someone up for money when they're abroad, but it's so difficult it's just better taking the £20 off him. £20 is better than nothing.

 

[drbdrb]

Lets not call it "getting soft", but rather : continuing to make balanced assessments.

For the woman with the receipt and no ticket, but also able to show her booking on her laptop, it probably was a balanced assessment.

For the bloke with a pocket full of out of date tickets - "here it is" "nope that is yesterday", " this one" "nope, last week", etc - and all they had was a blank carnet, I am not so sure.

I wondered quite what someone needed to do to not be told " OK, don't do it again".

 

[jon0844]

That's pragmatism. You can theoretically chase someone up for money when they're abroad, but it's so difficult it's just better taking the £20 off him. £20 is better than nothing.

There's no way he was visiting. We now have a significant number of French people living and working in London, mostly for tax reasons.

Mind you, I guess said person could well have opted to give a French address if he'd wanted. Which does me wonder what happens if people give a foreign address even if they live here?

 

[daccer]

Interesting discussion. I have no knowledge of how FCC's RPI's are paid but if they take details for dealing with later do they see any financial benefit from this. If they take an immediate £20 for a penalty fare I am assuming they will see commission on this. I am sure FCC have done some sort of analysis on this and decided they are better off taking £20 there and then rather thn risk a long process with no guaranteed outcome.

 

[jon0844]

I think it's more a case of not all RPIs being trained to do referrals for prosecution. As such, some can only do PFs.

I think FCC was training more and more people, and had a special fraud investigation team too - that looked more closely at tickets, presumably looking for forgeries etc.

 

[trevmonk]

Cue her posting on here in a couple of weeks when she gets a notice of intent to prosecute letter...

Admittedly he did do all the "would you have bought a ticket?" "did you have the means to pay for your journey?" type questions and got her to sign a form, which she laughed off as she had already had a ticket and paid for it (although technically invalid without the railcard)

 

[LowLevel]

It's entirely about discretion. I let a lass who turned up to my train travel 80 miles for free as she had a black eye and seemed in a right state. I've also UPFN'd rude or dubious people who don't seem right for minor things just to get their details on file in case there's a next time or to fire a shot across the bows. Where I've had my hand forced into dealing with something formally in a manner I would normally avoid, but feel the case is genuine, I go out of my way to put my report in such a manner that it's unattractive for prosecutions to take it to court.

At the end of the day, I'm paid by my TOC to effectively be their manager and representative on the ground as the train guard - I'm in charge, not control, not my manager or anyone else. Part of that is trusting me to act appropriately in circumstances from emergencies to fare evasion.

I don't always get it right but I do my best to come down on the side of the passenger whenever I can.

 

[reb0118]

I don't always get it right but I do my best to come down on the side of the passenger whenever I can.

Like it.

 

[SPADTrap]

I think it's more a case of not all RPIs being trained to do referrals for prosecution. As such, some can only do PFs.

I think FCC was training more and more people, and had a special fraud investigation team too - that looked more closely at tickets, presumably looking for forgeries etc.

Again, not the case, not true. Even gateline staff can complete MG11s in FCC. RPIs certainly can.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Interesting discussion. I have no knowledge of how FCC's RPI's are paid but if they take details for dealing with later do they see any financial benefit from this. If they take an immediate £20 for a penalty fare I am assuming they will see commission on this. I am sure FCC have done some sort of analysis on this and decided they are better off taking £20 there and then rather thn risk a long process with no guaranteed outcome.

Absolutely NO commission nor financial benefit, incorrect assumption.

 

[Sleepy]

I also like it - if I tried to extract payment from every person who made an error I would never make it through train of 500+ people to find those "trying it on" !

 

[jon0844]

They definitely had/have a special fraud team. I am also sure that in the past not everyone was able to caution people and take statements, but I am happy to be corrected and apologise. It makes sense and I know First were far more proactive on revenue that National Express was before.

 

[SPADTrap]

They definitely had/have a special fraud team. I am also sure that in the past not everyone was able to caution people and take statements, but I am happy to be corrected and apologise. It makes sense and I know First were far more proactive on revenue that National Express was before.

They do have a fraud team but I can assure you all RPIs and RCOs can complete MG11s, RCOs without the caution however, but RPIs are most definitely all SPOE trained. Trust me

 

[whiwofbs]

At the end of the day, I'm paid by my TOC to effectively be their manager and representative on the ground as the train guard - I'm in charge, not control, not my manager or anyone else. Part of that is trusting me to act appropriately in circumstances from emergencies to fare evasion.

I don't always get it right but I do my best to come down on the side of the passenger whenever I can.

That's a great, sensible attitude to have.
Just out of curiosity do you get people who are regularly rude or obstructive, and how effective is having their details on record in this scenario? What if they start giving a different name or address every time they get questioned?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Mind you, I guess said person could well have opted to give a French address if he'd wanted. Which does me wonder what happens if people give a foreign address even if they live here?

That was more my point. There's no way he was a visitor, but if he gives his childhood address in France there's no real way of proving that he's lying. And the chances of getting some money out of him in France are miniscule. Better to take the £20 and move on.

 

[LowLevel]

That's a great, sensible attitude to have.
Just out of curiosity do you get people who are regularly rude or obstructive, and how effective is having their details on record in this scenario? What if they start giving a different name or address every time they get questioned?

You hope the planets are aligned and BTP or the PACE trained revenue staff are about. You have to play the long game with them but still seem to win out once attention has been drawn to them. I know of a woman who used a duff card on a journey too short to get her details regular so she was swiped. The company got the charge backs, so they teamed up with the card issuer one day to get the guard to take it off her when it declined. She was most aggrieved and never seen again, I don't know if they took further action. We also get lists of suspect people and cards and get a monetary reward if we manage to catch them. I'm quite happy to take the card as if I'm going to swipe it and then do the fraud call and withdraw it - they'd do well to successfully assault me to get it back from my pocket

Its hard to predict. I go weeks without any problems and then there seem to be a flurry.

 

[yorkie]

Surely it would be better in this case to employ a 'one size fits all' approach, as opposed to relying on the very subjective and potentially biased view ....

This has cropped up numerous times before, in fact the last time was only about a week ago. See Discretion or Inconsistency

Given that each situation is unique, I'm not sure how a 'one size fits all' approach could work. But feel free to post on that thread, or create a new one, with your proposals.

 

[Deerfold]

She was most aggrieved and never seen again, I don't know if they took further action.

You can make people disappear? Wow.