Feasibility of Elizabeth Line to Staines

[LLivery]

With the Western link 'paused' and the Southern link probably not happening any time soon (if ever), should a simple-ish extension from Heathrow to Staines happen at least for the interim?

If we rebuilt Staines station, you could have a bay platform on the site of the ticket hall, building a station similar to Meridian Water, with the ticket facilities above. No faff of adding trains to the Windsor lines in SW London, meaning no busier level crossings and track capacity issues; just a simple interchange from SWR Windsor lines to the Elizabeth, running at 4tph 2tph by extending T5 services. Of course, build it with provision for AirTrack to be built in the future.

I would use the current Windsor branch alignment from where it crosses the river Wraysbury until the new bay platform at Staines. It adds the complication of 3rd rail, but Thameslink manages. If you really wanted to get adventurous, maybe a triangle junction to allow direct services to Windsor ER too. If Heathrow Express want to 'innovate' they could extend to Windsor and Staines.

SW London and Surrey have worst rail links to Heathrow, than I have in SE London nowadays - it would be good for this to change.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Airtrack plans could always be dusted off. IIRC they included a bay platform without actually needing to demolish the existing buildings.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

With the Western link 'paused' and the Southern link probably not happening any time soon (if ever), should a simple-ish extension from Heathrow to Staines happen at least for the interim?

If we rebuilt Staines station, you could have a bay platform on the site of the ticket hall, building a station similar to Meridian Water, with the ticket facilities above. No faff of adding trains to the Windsor lines in SW London, meaning no busier level crossings and track capacity issues; just a simple interchange from SWR Windsor lines to the Elizabeth, running at 4tph by extending T5 services. Of course, build it with provision for AirTrack to be built in the future.

I would use the current Windsor branch alignment from where it crosses the river Wraysbury until the new bay platform at Staines. It adds the complication of 3rd rail, but Thameslink manages. If you really wanted to get adventurous, maybe a triangle junction to allow direct services to Windsor ER too. If Heathrow Express want to 'innovate' they could extend to Windsor.

SW London and Surrey have worst rail links to Heathrow, than I have in SE London nowadays - it would be good for this to change.

Would a bay platform be sufficient to turn Elizabeth Line trains round? Also, of course, is there enough spare land at Staines for a bigger station?

 

[JonathanH]

Would a bay platform be sufficient to turn Elizabeth Line trains round?

I think there are only two Elizabeth Line trains scheduled each hour to Terminal 5 in due course so a single bay at Staines ought to be more than capable of handling a half hourly service.

 

[LLivery]

And Overground manages 4tph from 1 platform at the southern ends of the East London Line.

The Airtrack plans could always be dusted off. IIRC they included a bay platform without actually needing to demolish the existing buildings.

Even better - every penny saved...

 

[RobShipway]

Since many in these forums have said that adding third rail shoes to class 379 units is too expensive, how you would you add the required third rail shoes to the class 345 units?

 

[JonathanH]

Since many in these forums have said that adding third rail shoes to class 379 units is too expensive, how you would you add the required third rail shoes to the class 345 units?

I suspect an extension to Staines would be too expensive, let alone adding third rail shoes to the class 345 units.

There have been indications on this forum before that there is passive provision for retro fitting third rail capability to the 345s, generally considered when discussing extension of operation to Gravesend.

 

[swt_passenger]

I suspect an extension to Staines would be too expensive, let alone adding third rail shoes to the class 345 units.

There have been indications on this forum before that there is passive provision for retro fitting third rail capability to the 345s, generally considered when discussing extension of operation to Gravesend.

Yes, although I never kept it, I had an emailed reply from a query to Crossrail stating that fitting 3rd rail shoes was designed into the 345, because at that time it would have been the way they’d operate any extension beyond Abbey Wood.

This must be around 10 or more years ago, people were also suggesting that the Connaught tunnel couldn’t cope with wires and most of the whole Abbey Wood branch would therefore have to be DC.

 

[Nottingham59]

I would use the current Windsor branch alignment from where it crosses the river Wraysbury until the new bay platform at Staines. It adds the complication of 3rd rail, but Thameslink manages.

It seems to me that there is enough space to run one or two extra tracks alongside the existing Staines-Wraysbury line, which would make things a lot simpler. And much of the neighbouring properties are open spaces or car parks, which could used if necessary.

 

[LLivery]

It seems to me that there is enough space to run one or two extra tracks alongside the existing Staines-Wraysbury line, which would make things a lot simpler. And much of the neighbouring properties are open spaces or car parks, which could used if necessary.


View attachment 124749

I thought this myself too, but surely this would add significant £££

 

[Benjwri]

Presumably any extension would just have OHLE installed anyways, since this is an extension being suggested, there isn't a requirement to allow trains onto the existing track, and it would be far simpler regarding trains and approval.
The project would however incur significant cost, since there isn't capacity in the existing 345 fleet for anything more than the OOC extension of Sheffield services. The only likely chance of this happening is if a further more substantial extension was to go ahead in a different part of the line, which would allow the cost of restarting 345 production to be shared.

 

[D365]

Since many in these forums have said that adding third rail shoes to class 379 units is too expensive, how you would you add the required third rail shoes to the class 345 units?

It’s not just the shoes, it’s the additional inter-vehicle busbar, fuses, software changes. As per the above replies, Class 345 was specced with passive provision for third rail.

The project would however incur significant cost, since there isn't capacity in the existing 345 fleet for anything more than the OOC extension of Sheffield services.

Class 345s for HS2?
(Apologies - couldn’t resist)

 

[Benjwri]

Class 345s for HS2?

Once OOC opens the Shenfield services which currently terminate at Paddington will change to terminating at OOC. This requires a fair few extra units as obviously it's an extension to their route, and the dwell time at OOC is far longer than currently at the Westbourne Park sidings, since passenger have to be loaded, and auto reverse cannot be used. This uses up any current flexibility in the fleet, and therefore any extension to the line would require further trains to be ordered if the current service pattern was also to be maintained.

 

[D365]

Once OOC opens the Shenfield services which currently terminate at Paddington will change to terminating at OOC. This requires a fair few extra units as obviously it's an extension to their route, and the dwell time at OOC is far longer than currently at the Westbourne Park sidings, since passenger have to be loaded, and auto reverse cannot be used. This uses up any current flexibility in the fleet, and therefore any extension to the line would require further trains to be ordered if the current service pattern was also to be maintained.

Was this not provisioned by the five extra units? (Original planned quantity was 65)

 

[cle]

I can't see this much work being value for money for 2tph. I'd rather they find a billion for Windsor works at Slough!

Wasn't it also/originally envisaged for HEx? But doing all 6tph would need two platforms I'm sure, so again unlikely as the 2tph Crossrail and 2tph HEx would need to be held to become clock-face synched in this final stretch to be able to turn, Overground-style.

 

[Benjwri]

Was this not provisioned by the five extra units? (Original planned quantity was 65)

I believe the extra units were used for a frequency uplift, although I cannot remember where. There isn’t any capacity for increased services, and therefore wouldn’t be for extension

 

[JonathanH]

I believe the extra units were used for a frequency uplift, although I cannot remember where. There isn’t any capacity for increased services, and therefore wouldn’t be for extension

Summarised here
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...d-upminster-branch.233856/page-7#post-5757548

 

[Bald Rick]

With the Western link 'paused' and the Southern link probably not happening any time soon (if ever), should a simple-ish extension from Heathrow to Staines happen at least for the interim?

If we rebuilt Staines station, you could have a bay platform on the site of the ticket hall, building a station similar to Meridian Water, with the ticket facilities above. No faff of adding trains to the Windsor lines in SW London, meaning no busier level crossings and track capacity issues; just a simple interchange from SWR Windsor lines to the Elizabeth, running at 4tph 2tph by extending T5 services. Of course, build it with provision for AirTrack to be built in the future.

I would use the current Windsor branch alignment from where it crosses the river Wraysbury until the new bay platform at Staines. It adds the complication of 3rd rail, but Thameslink manages. If you really wanted to get adventurous, maybe a triangle junction to allow direct services to Windsor ER too. If Heathrow Express want to 'innovate' they could extend to Windsor and Staines.

SW London and Surrey have worst rail links to Heathrow, than I have in SE London nowadays - it would be good for this to change.

You’ve basically just described one of the options for the southern link (Of which there are many).

Costs end with the word “billion”

 

[LLivery]

Presumably any extension would just have OHLE installed anyways, since this is an extension being suggested, there isn't a requirement to allow trains onto the existing track, and it would be far simpler regarding trains and approval.
The project would however incur significant cost, since there isn't capacity in the existing 345 fleet for anything more than the OOC extension of Sheffield services. The only likely chance of this happening is if a further more substantial extension was to go ahead in a different part of the line, which would allow the cost of restarting 345 production to be shared.

I'd prefer OHLE, just thought third rail would keep costs down. Hadn't factored in cost to install third rail shoes. I had thought about the lack of slack in the fleet - I'd hope the extension would be worth the cost.

I can't see this much work being value for money for 2tph. I'd rather they find a billion for Windsor works at Slough!

Wasn't it also/originally envisaged for HEx? But doing all 6tph would need two platforms I'm sure, so again unlikely as the 2tph Crossrail and 2tph HEx would need to be held to become clock-face synched in this final stretch to be able to turn, Overground-style.

2tph would be poor, was thinking 4tph. Although having T4 on a different branch isn't helpful.

You’ve basically just described one of the options for the southern link (Of which there are many).

Costs end with the word “billion”

I'm surprised that it would reach billion, but shouldn't be. Is this too expensive to be worth the cost, however? I'd be amazed if it wasn't very well used.

 

[Bald Rick]

The route you describe goes straight through the Staines Moor SSSI (Site of Specific Scientific Interest), which is why Heathrow Southern proposed tunnelling it.

 

[RobShipway]

It’s not just the shoes, it’s the additional inter-vehicle busbar, fuses, software changes. As per the above replies, Class 345 was specced with passive provision for third rail.


Class 345s for HS2?
(Apologies - couldn’t resist)

True, I had forgotten about the rest. But it would still be extra cost per unit that I cannot see being retrieved from anyone using the extension to Staines.

 

[D365]

True, I had forgotten about the rest. But it would still be extra cost per unit that I cannot see being retrieved from anyone using the extension to Staines.

my point is that hypothetical third rail capability of the Class 345s is the least of the concerns.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

True, I had forgotten about the rest. But it would still be extra cost per unit that I cannot see being retrieved from anyone using the extension to Staines.

Any Elizabeth Line extension to an enlarged Staines Station would be used by a very large number of passengers from places like Guildford, Woking, Basingstoke and Windsor. It would be a very heavily used service. I've given up trying to understand railway construction costs but of all the mooted railway projects, this one has the most chance of being useful to an enormous number of people.

 

[kwrail]

It's not just Staines. Public transport into Heathrow from the South and South West is non-existent. Extending south from Heathrow through Staines to somewhere like Woking would really help.

 

[Bald Rick]

Any Elizabeth Line extension to an enlarged Staines Station would be used by a very large number of passengers from places like Guildford, Woking, Basingstoke and Windsor. It would be a very heavily used service. I've given up trying to understand railway construction costs but of all the mooted railway projects, this one has the most chance of being useful to an enormous number of people.

Windsor, perhaps (And not that many). But not the others.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Windsor, perhaps (And not that many). But not the others.

We'll have to agree to differ. In my opinion, the users of such a new services would fall into three main groups: 1) people who work at Heathrow: 2) people travelling from Heathrow; and 3) people travelling to London for whom the Elizabeth Line is preferable to going via Waterloo. I think all three will total a lot of people. Perhaps not on Day One, but after a couple of years.

 

[Bald Rick]

We'll have to agree to differ. In my opinion, the users of such a new services would fall into three main groups: 1) people who work at Heathrow: 2) people travelling from Heathrow; and 3) people travelling to London for whom the Elizabeth Line is preferable to going via Waterloo. I think all three will total a lot of people. Perhaps not on Day One, but after a couple of years.

you missed my point. There aren’t (and won’t be) any services to Staines from Guildford, Basingstoke and Woking.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

you missed my point. There aren’t (and won’t be) any services to Staines from Guildford, Basingstoke and Woking.

There is already a service between Virginia Water and Weybridge/Woking. If an enlarged Staines Station played host to the Elizabeth Line, the service via Virginia Water would inevitably be adjusted to maximise potential revenue. My guess is that it would run to Guildford and people from Surrey and Hampshire would use that service to reach Staines.

 

[LLivery]

The route you describe goes straight through the Staines Moor SSSI (Site of Specific Scientific Interest), which is why Heathrow Southern proposed tunnelling it.

Ah, I didn't realise that area is an SSSI, that's unfortunate from a costs perspective.

There is already a service between Virginia Water and Weybridge/Woking. If an enlarged Staines Station played host to the Elizabeth Line, the service via Virginia Water would inevitably be adjusted to maximise potential revenue. My guess is that it would run to Guildford and people from Surrey and Hampshire would use that service to reach Staines.

I would hope the Weybridge via Hounslow could be diverted to Woking at least, anything better would be great. Heathrow's rail usage is far too low; even with the Liz Line, the rail offering is dire for the airport's importance.

 

[JonathanH]

My guess is that it would run to Guildford and people from Surrey and Hampshire would use that service to reach Staines.

Not without substantial work at Woking to build a grade separated Junction. The demand for travel towards London would continue to be dominant, not Staines.