Feltham and Wokingham Resignalling

[Belperpete]

The recent press release from DfT included the following:

The Transport Secretary also unveiled a host of further road and rail investments today, including:

• £9.74 million for signalling and infrastructure enhancements delivered on the Wessex route at Twickenham, Bracknell and Virginia Water as part of the Feltham and Wokingham Signalling Renewal Programme, which will help improve the reliability and flexibility of services starting from Easter 2021

How on earth are they going to spend a further £9.74 million of new investment to achieve enhancements ready for Easter 2021? Barely eight months away! Is this, as I suspect, just re-announcing something that is already well under way?

Or should I be reading it literally, as it does seem to say that they are spending a further £9.74 million on something that has already been delivered!

 

[DorkingMain]

The recent press release from DfT included the following:


How on earth are they going to spend a further £9.74 million of new investment to achieve enhancements ready for Easter 2021? Barely eight months away! Is this, as I suspect, just re-announcing something that is already well under way?

Or should I be reading it literally, as it does seem to say that they are spending a further £9.74 million on something that has already been delivered!

You are correct that it's underway, and quite a lot of the replacement infrastructure is already in place.

Ultimate aim is to close Feltham box and move all signals to Basingstoke ROC, similar to as was done on the Shepperton branch.

 

[rower40]

Have the Boiling Frog brigade contractors increased the price by £9.74 million? So in order to keep the job going, the DfT have to stump up more money, and can then announce that they're "investing more in the railway".

 

[TEW]

Ultimate aim is to close Feltham box and move all signals to Basingstoke ROC, similar to as was done on the Shepperton branch.

IIRC, although the Shepperton branch was resignalled it was just moved to its own panel in Feltham box, and not to Basingstoke? AFAIK there is no signalling control at the ROC at Basingstoke.

 

[Bald Rick]

The extra money is, AIUI, for extra facilities being provided on top of the base signalling renewal at the locations mentioned. I don’t know what they are, but suspect it will be something like extra crossovers, or signalled moves, that sort of thing.

 

[DorkingMain]

IIRC, although the Shepperton branch was resignalled it was just moved to its own panel in Feltham box, and not to Basingstoke? AFAIK there is no signalling control at the ROC at Basingstoke.

Definitely been moved to Basingstoke ROC, back in mid-2019. Signals are now plated as BEF to reflect the change. New infrastructure as part of this resignalling is also plated as BEF.

 

[TEW]

Definitely been moved to Basingstoke ROC, back in mid-2019. Signals are now plated as BEF to reflect the change. New infrastructure as part of this resignalling is also plated as BEF.

Just looked it up, it is definitely still controlled from Feltham signalbox, from its own workstation. Transfer to the ROC is planned at some undefined later date.

This article refers: https://www.railengineer.co.uk/new-main-line-interlocking-enters-service/

Initially, the Shepperton branch will be controlled from a single workstation located at Feltham signal box before being transferred to Basingstoke rail operating centre (ROC) in a later stage within the overall Feltham resignalling.

 

[DorkingMain]

Just looked it up, it is definitely still controlled from Feltham signalbox, from its own workstation. Transfer to the ROC is planned at some undefined later date.

This article refers: https://www.railengineer.co.uk/new-main-line-interlocking-enters-service/

The transfer to the new interlocking and signals didn't happen at the same time as the transfer of the panel to Basingstoke ROC, though I'm fairly certain it did at some point after. I may be wrong - that area isn't particularly my field of expertise, lol

 

[godfreycomplex]

IIRC, although the Shepperton branch was resignalled it was just moved to its own panel in Feltham box, and not to Basingstoke? AFAIK there is no signalling control at the ROC at Basingstoke.

I can definitively state that this is correct

 

[DorkingMain]

I can definitively state that this is correct

Well, turns out even a weathered old train man like me stands to learn some things lol

 

[Islander58]

Hi all
Does anyone have any info on the changes at Twickenham taking place as part of the scheme? Is there a track plan that anyone could share showing the new layout?

Platform 2 recently refurbed; facing cross-over at St Margarets put in place... new junction to the west of Twickenham, Stoop Junction, in place.

I had read that there was a plan to allow two trains to depart westwards simultaneously towards Whitton and Steawberry from Twickenham... so will the current platform 4 become bi-directional? Or will 5 and 4 be permanently westbound and 3 and 2 be eastbound?

Why not re-name all of the platforms as platform 1 is not coming back?!

Also, when will new Feltham depot be commissioned? Thanks

 

[deepeetw]

I know the safeguarding work was completed to keep through services on Twickenham platform 2 available as a future option (grouping 2+3 for London-bound and 4+5 for country-bound services), but I don’t recall seeing anything saying the full delivery of this work was planned for the Feltham resignalling scheme?

Have I missed something?

 

[TSG]

I believe the middle road will be bidirectional from St Margarets to west of the junction to Strawberry Hill. Platform 2 remains an east facing bay so is obviously bidirectional. 3 and 4 will be bidirectional. 5 remains westbound only.

 

[deepeetw]

Platforms 3 and 4 have always been bidirectional at the country end, no change there (they are used to send trains via Kingston during engineering work, and Pl 4 also used to be timetabled for the occasional reversal about 20 years ago too).

If they are extending up to St Margaret’s, I’m not sure what service benefit that brings!

I’m possibly heading there later on another matter anyway, will take a look at what’s going on.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Wessex strategic plan still shows numerous 52 hour closures for Twickenham S&C alterations, spread well into 2021. I don’t think there’s ever been a plan drawing appeared in public...

 

[deepeetw]

Think they have used all the S&C weekends in the 20/21 list already over the last few months, leaving only the 3 showing against next Summer.

Will wait in anticipation (it’s a good idea, would be glad to see it happen)!

I believe the middle road will be bidirectional from St Margarets to west of the junction to Strawberry Hill. Platform 2 remains an east facing bay so is obviously bidirectional. 3 and 4 will be bidirectional. 5 remains westbound only.

Looking at things on the ground today, the replacement signals on the down end of 3 and 4 are now installed with a theatre indicator (the old signals didn’t have these), so there certainly will be more options once the resignalling is done. Looks like 2 will remain unchanged - nothing in the construction work to prevent it becoming a through line, but the recent construction seems to have done nothing to enable it.

 

[TSG]

If they are extending up to St Margaret’s, I’m not sure what service benefit that brings!

Direct access to the bay? More choices for turn-backs? Ability for faster down services to overtake slower ones?

 

[deepeetw]

Direct access to the bay? More choices for turn-backs? Ability for faster down services to overtake slower ones?

True, however by the looks of it you won’t be able to send anything down from Twickenham towards Reading at the same time as towards Strawberry Hill without blocking the Up Windsor for a good few minutes (unless there is more track work to go in). Options are good though!

 

[MarkyT]

Just a note here to make it clear that the new interlocking technology for this resignalling is distributed along the trackside in standard equipment housings, rather than being concentrated at the control centre as has been traditional in SSI family and some other processor-based systems previously. This makes re-control from the temporary workstation at Feltham to Basingstoke ROC, or anywhere else for that matter, much easier in the future given a suitable communications link.

 

[TSG]

This makes re-control from the temporary workstation at Feltham to Basingstoke ROC, or anywhere else for that matter, much easier in the future given a suitable communications link.

All other things being equal, how will distributed logic make re-control 'much easier' than SSI and the like (given that a lot of SSI will already be LDT systems)?

 

[swt_passenger]

Can anyone explain a couple of additions mentioned earlier please?

Firstly the location of the new St Margaret’s facing crossover, (with respect to the station), and secondly what functionality does “Stoop Junction” provide for?

 

[MarkyT]

All other things being equal, how will distributed logic make re-control 'much easier' than SSI and the like (given that a lot of SSI will already be LDT systems)?

More like a re-control of a remote relay interlocking with a redirected TDM, and plausible (with suitable safeguards, operator training etc) to be able to switch control elsewhere more easily in an emergency, say to a local control, even a 'portable workstation' if necessary without having to commission new interlocking cubicles. Also if the control centre link is lost the, trackside data link and controlled objects don't just become dead useless equipment and can still perform some protective logic (e.g. auto normalisation of points for trapping) and event logging can still take place locally. I think embedding the safety logic as close to the controlled objects as possible is the optimum architecture if possible to engineer, which the latest approaches seem to be able to do.

 

[TSG]

More like a re-control of a remote relay interlocking with a redirected TDM

I'm not sure you're comparing apples with apples. Theoretically, you could carry the link between an IECC and a distant CBI interlocking over a transmission system. You may know different but I've not seen it done, only ever local connection. I think its local at Feltham and I think it will be local at Basingstoke. If you did use a remote interface, what's the difference between a decentralised and a centralised CBI anyway (except maybe needing more of them for decentralised ones)?

even a 'portable workstation'

Portable as in laptop (theoretically possible I suppose, if you were willing to sacrifice reliability, availability and safety for portability), or portable as in travelling circus/fair (using standard kit; in my minds eye I see a convoy of gaily coloured trucks containing the signallers workstation, the IECC, the interlocking interface, the switch room/UPS, FTN node etc, perhaps later adding a trailer for a RBC )?

without having to commission new interlocking cubicles

As things stand (including Feltham/Basingstoke AIUI), you will still need to commission an interlocking cubicle to interface to the IECC, along with the IECC cubicles, power, telecoms and various ancillary systems.

I think modern networking technology and how the control system is interfaced to the interlocking has a bearing on how easy it is to re-control (you could engineer a cold standby control centre if you deemed it worthwhile). I can see there are some advantages to decentralising the interlocking (although I'd question to what extent it really has been), but without a lot of other changes I don't see it making much difference to re-control.

 

[MarkyT]

I'm not sure you're comparing apples with apples. Theoretically, you could carry the link between an IECC and a distant CBI interlocking over a transmission system. You may know different but I've not seen it done, only ever local connection. I think its local at Feltham and I think it will be local at Basingstoke. If you did use a remote interface, what's the difference between a decentralised and a centralised CBI anyway (except maybe needing more of them for decentralised ones)

Definitely been done for remote SSIs from panel processors as long ago as the 1990s! I've not heard of it anywhere yet for workstations, but I'm certain it's feasible and desirable with high-quality comms over FTN. In this more fully distributed paradigm I don't think the number of interlocking sites is a particular concern.

Portable as in laptop (theoretically possible I suppose, if you were willing to sacrifice reliability, availability and safety for portability), or portable as in travelling circus/fair (using standard kit; in my minds eye I see a convoy of gaily coloured trucks containing the signallers workstation, the IECC, the interlocking interface, the switch room/UPS, FTN node etc, perhaps later adding a trailer for a RBC )?

I like it... We should include a catering van and a couple of rides to set up for breaktime entertainment!

As things stand (including Feltham/Basingstoke AIUI), you will still need to commission an interlocking cubicle to interface to the IECC, along with the IECC cubicles, power, telecoms and various ancillary systems.

Presumably with very simple 'pass through' ID flag data and safe management of tightly coupled control centre functions such as collars, disconnections? ISTR early ROC development referred to this as the 'blue layer'.

I think modern networking technology and how the control system is interfaced to the interlocking has a bearing on how easy it is to re-control (you could engineer a cold standby control centre if you deemed it worthwhile). I can see there are some advantages to decentralising the interlocking (although I'd question to what extent it really has been), but without a lot of other changes I don't see it making much difference to re-control.

High-quality comms makes a huge difference to what is feasible no doubt, I'm not sure that's a good excuse to incorporate as much distance into the control loop as possible though.

 

[Class 170101]

Definitely been done for remote SSIs from panel processors as long ago as the 1990s! I've not heard of it anywhere yet for workstations, but I'm certain it's feasible and desirable with high-quality comms over FTN. In this more fully distributed paradigm I don't think the number of interlocking sites is a particular concern.

Didn't TVSC (Great Western) gain some previously IECC controlled areas on the GW towards London?

 

[MarkyT]

Didn't TVSC (Great Western) gain some previously IECC controlled areas on the GW towards London?

Yes, but they relocated/replaced all the SSI-family interlockings at the new facility. Not the case for many remote relay interlockings previously controlled from Reading PSB, which, initially, were re-controlled, although all of those have been resignalled since, with centralised processor-based interlockings.

 

[carriageline]

Definitely been done for remote SSIs from panel processors as long ago as the 1990s! I've not heard of it anywhere yet for workstations, but I'm certain it's feasible and desirable with high-quality comms over FTN. In this more fully distributed paradigm I don't think the number of interlocking sites is a particular concern.

The London Bridge interlockings are not located at TBROC.

They are located elsewhere, and connected to TBROC via its own private signalling network.

there is details on rail engineer, but can’t find it right now

 

[traji00]

Not sure if mentioned elsewhere, but the next phase of Feltham resignalling goes live 6th April 2021.

As I understand it, control of the following lines (along with existing Shepperton branch) will be moved to Basingstoke ROC* (BEF):

New Malden — North Sheen via Kingston,
Twickenham — Whitton,
Fulwell — Strawberry Hill,
Fulwell — Shacklegate Jn.

(*Happy to be corrected)

 

[Ian Hardy]

Network Rail has produced a web page about the works:
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...eltham-and-wokingham-re-signalling-programme/

 

[deepeetw]

Network Rail has produced a web page about the works:
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...eltham-and-wokingham-re-signalling-programme/

In the Level crossing closures, they mention

Arriva Bus Turning Point, Twickenham

I can't for the life of me work out where that is, anybody else here know better?

Thanks!