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FGW at Paddington still getting evening Off Peak validity spectacularly wrong.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Time to report them to the DfT for breach of franchise agreement, and perhaps the Press as well? This really is truly disgraceful. It shows a management who have clearly completely lost control of their staff's actions - the sign of a company in any industry rotten to its core.
In a competently managed company, this should need to be passed down to the gateline management once, and once only.
Mind you, it's First. I'm not surprised one bit. TPE are just as bad - I retain the view that they are institutionally arrogant from top to bottom, and was very disappointed they succeeded in obtaining the new franchise indeed.
In a competently managed company, this should need to be passed down to the gateline management once, and once only.
Mind you, it's First. I'm not surprised one bit. TPE are just as bad - I retain the view that they are institutionally arrogant from top to bottom, and was very disappointed they succeeded in obtaining the new franchise indeed.
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I'm loathe to go the popular press because they have a habit of pigeonholing folk. I'm a rail enthusiast so I'll be portrayed as a nerdy trainspotter. Which I sort of am and not ashamed to be, but even so.
Specialist rail press for starters I think.
Specialist rail press for starters I think.
BestWestern
Established Member
- Joined
- 6 Feb 2011
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Has GWR given you any idea of what measures have actually been taken so far?
This is a saga indeed! :-/
This is a saga indeed! :-/
I'm still waiting on the official response following my meeting with CS Manager in Plymouth on 23rd December. Needless to say, he's got a couple more emails from me in his inbox today. This time I've CC'd a GWR Director too.
Thinking about knocking on Mark Hopwood's front door also!
Last sentence is a joke, but if I bump into him...
Thinking about knocking on Mark Hopwood's front door also!
Last sentence is a joke, but if I bump into him...
If the delay meets the threshold for compensation, then without a doubt.
Technically "breach of contract" - you would try to obtain documentary evidence of the breach e.g. getting them to endorse the ticket as "not valid on 1C22" (so they can't later claim you're making up the whole story), then buy a new ticket and claim that back through the small claims court. (And you'd hope the letter before action would resolve the matter without actually needing to go ahead with a formal claim.)
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She did. Same one I encountered back in January 2015 (see OP). Not much time for platitudes as I had to get on the 1700, lest I be late for curry night in Swindon! She did bump me to 1st for my entire journey, but only after I suggested it.
causton
Established Member
Brilliant isn't it, I sold someone a ticket with a C4 restriction (I think, it was not into LDN before 1000) earlier today and am worried myself that they will be incorrectly denied travel out of Paddington, and will come back to me and make me sound like I don't know what I'm doing. This is almost as bad as when someone penalty fared a guy on the Overground with a Watford North travelcard as he was "not in the right zone" when they checked him on the train between Hatch End and Watford Junction!
Heading home to Bristol via an overnight stay with a friend in Swindon. As on previous occasions I was split ticketing.
But, just to be clear, its not the split itself that's the issue, it's the first part of said split from Kent to Thames Valley that Paddington gateline consistently refuse to honour as per ticket restriction F3/C4.
Tonight's gateline staffer wouldn't stop apologising after realising he was wrong. But that admission only came after my chosen train had pulled out.
I was accused elsewhere on this forum (since deleted) of failing the attitude test back in December when this last happened. I await with interest a response from that forum member (rail staff unsurprisingly), again attempting to defend the indefensible by making out these incidents are somehow my fault. You know who you are.
EDIT: Removed oblique reference to fellow RailUK Forums member's name. Wrong target for my ire.
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Some of them are out of control, and won't listen to anyone. (Source: a member of gateline staff who wishes to remain anonymous and has concerns about the attitude of some of his colleagues) I'm not saying that applies in this case, but it clearly has in some of the cases of valid tickets being rejected by FGW gateline staff (not just Paddington; Oxford is a known hotspot of problems), but what I am saying is that the problem is difficult to solve. It's not like most industries, where customer facing staff wouldn't get away with this sort of thing. I see no end to these problems in sight.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
What a muppet of an inspector. If I felt like a laugh, I'd have refused the PF and asked to be reported for prosecution, then made an idiot of them in court.
Indeed, some RPIs are out of control too. I'm not surprised. Won't be the last. Nothing will be done. ORR don't care, DfT don't care.
Easily said but many people don't want the hassle. Even those who do go to court, and either win or have the case against them withdrawn, tend to want it to be kept quiet.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Unless a passenger is being abusive, in which case it's time to call the BTP over and all bets are off, it is not necessary to "pass the attitude test" to travel on a valid ticket, nor should any member of railway staff think it is.
The "attitude test" kicks in when your ticket is *not* valid. Again *is not* valid, having made appropriate checks if you don't know if the passenger questions it, not the member of staff thinks it might not be.
Not saying we shouldn't be polite to rail staff, of course we should, but being a bit rude is not a reason to deny travel with a valid ticket.
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Easily said but there is a minority who take the view "this is my train/station and I decide what's valid". I've even known gateline staff at Paddington make false allegations a customer had a gun in order to try to get someone arrested. Yes, these things really do happen.
Thankfully there are at least three people who work there who know their stuff, or will go check. Possibly more, but that's my personal experience thus far.
Thing is, you can't really be expected to travel to fit around their shifts, and not when they're on a break or on holiday!
Thing is, you can't really be expected to travel to fit around their shifts, and not when they're on a break or on holiday!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The bad apples are the minority in most cases, of course - but the point is that GWR management should be able to weed out the bad apples. If they can't or won't, they aren't very good management.
Absolutely. Like others, I felt some staff are so sure they're right they won't even listen to their bosses or management.
Most recently I had an issue with tickets not printing, and was shunted around (I printed at King's Cross, where I was told that as the tickets were GWR I must go to a GWR station) and as I had to go for a meeting I couldn't stop to argue.
So I got to Paddington and queued up to be told that they couldn't do anything as I ordered online, and they couldn't do anything but tell me to read my confirmation email for contact details. I'd likely need to buy new tickets and claim the money back.
Four tickets had also misprinted (as car park tickets!) and they couldn't be reissued at all. Basically, tough luck that they were in the wrong format and made no sense at all.
I thought to ask at the gate, primarily about the odd printed tickets, and to cut a long story short, a supervisor looked up my reservation and saw the missing tickets weren't showing as printed, so he printed them there and then, and endorsed my dodgy looking tickets.
GWR has since apologised to me, although there has been no reassurance as to what happens if these new style tickets print totally wrong and I'm forced to buy new ones (or seek someone who will endorse them and can be convinced a car park ticket is actually an off peak single!). And of course what happens if some tickets simply don't print.
I particularly liked how everyone wanted to pass me on to someone else to get rid of me, until I found my saviours at the gateline.
(BTW, it was the dodgy code that messed up and gave me car park tickets that crashed the TVM and stopped the last four tickets printing. The lady at the ticket office should have looked it all up, rather than just keep telling me she couldn't do anything).
Most recently I had an issue with tickets not printing, and was shunted around (I printed at King's Cross, where I was told that as the tickets were GWR I must go to a GWR station) and as I had to go for a meeting I couldn't stop to argue.
So I got to Paddington and queued up to be told that they couldn't do anything as I ordered online, and they couldn't do anything but tell me to read my confirmation email for contact details. I'd likely need to buy new tickets and claim the money back.
Four tickets had also misprinted (as car park tickets!) and they couldn't be reissued at all. Basically, tough luck that they were in the wrong format and made no sense at all.
I thought to ask at the gate, primarily about the odd printed tickets, and to cut a long story short, a supervisor looked up my reservation and saw the missing tickets weren't showing as printed, so he printed them there and then, and endorsed my dodgy looking tickets.
GWR has since apologised to me, although there has been no reassurance as to what happens if these new style tickets print totally wrong and I'm forced to buy new ones (or seek someone who will endorse them and can be convinced a car park ticket is actually an off peak single!). And of course what happens if some tickets simply don't print.
I particularly liked how everyone wanted to pass me on to someone else to get rid of me, until I found my saviours at the gateline.
(BTW, it was the dodgy code that messed up and gave me car park tickets that crashed the TVM and stopped the last four tickets printing. The lady at the ticket office should have looked it all up, rather than just keep telling me she couldn't do anything).
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I should restate that tonight's gateline staffer was effusive in his apologies once he realised he was wrong. But by the time we'd got to that point my chosen train had departed. He stuck to me like glue, constantly apologising, while I awaited the DSM. I got the impression that he was seriously worried about his actions in denying me travel.
If that's a consequence of my ongoing complaints then good. But it still isn't acceptable to default to 'not valid' and delay someone with a valid ticket. My conversation tonight took me past both the 1630 and 1636 HSS departures calling Didcot, which left me the 1700. That was only made after a rushed conversation with the DSM. At least she knew of the issue, having been the DSM who I encountered in Jan 2015 when the same issue took two hours to resolve.
Should I be grateful that GWR Paddington have got my unnecessary delay down to 30 minutes? Should I b*gg*ry!
Seriously considering getting a t-shirt printed with the F3/C4 restriction text on it.
Some of you may re-hash the point about restriction codes being printed on common stock. That's still patchy dependent on TIS. I buy from Avantix. Nature of my work means, at best, it's the day before when I know my assignments. And my origin station has no ticket purchasing (or collecting) facilities so I have to buy on board.
...hang on. Seems like I'm making excuses for the gateline staff. Whether there is a restriction code printed on he ticket or not is irrelevant. Tonight's gateline staffer wouldn't accept me telling him it was F3. Well... he did eventually, but not before the 1630 and 1636 had gone.
Dear GWR. Look up the phrase, "benefit of the doubt" and instil that philosophy in your Paddington gateline staff. Even the odd few you may potentially let through with invalid tickets due to time restriction are still not breaking the law.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No. No. No.
The 'm' word is wholly unnaceptable. I used it, as an aside borne of frustration, in my conversation with a Paddington gateline staffer, in January 2015. There was actually an internal dialogue going on in my head at that time as to what language I could use to express my incredulity without going so far as to lose the moral high ground. The 'm' word was, I now know, too far. It resulted in Network Rail security being called, and the threat of ejection from Paddington for alleged threatening and abusive behaviour.
So, use the 'm' word at your peril.
(There is however no escaping the fact that a small minority of staff appear to have been created by Jim Henson.
)
If that's a consequence of my ongoing complaints then good. But it still isn't acceptable to default to 'not valid' and delay someone with a valid ticket. My conversation tonight took me past both the 1630 and 1636 HSS departures calling Didcot, which left me the 1700. That was only made after a rushed conversation with the DSM. At least she knew of the issue, having been the DSM who I encountered in Jan 2015 when the same issue took two hours to resolve.
Should I be grateful that GWR Paddington have got my unnecessary delay down to 30 minutes? Should I b*gg*ry!
Seriously considering getting a t-shirt printed with the F3/C4 restriction text on it.
Some of you may re-hash the point about restriction codes being printed on common stock. That's still patchy dependent on TIS. I buy from Avantix. Nature of my work means, at best, it's the day before when I know my assignments. And my origin station has no ticket purchasing (or collecting) facilities so I have to buy on board.
...hang on. Seems like I'm making excuses for the gateline staff. Whether there is a restriction code printed on he ticket or not is irrelevant. Tonight's gateline staffer wouldn't accept me telling him it was F3. Well... he did eventually, but not before the 1630 and 1636 had gone.
Dear GWR. Look up the phrase, "benefit of the doubt" and instil that philosophy in your Paddington gateline staff. Even the odd few you may potentially let through with invalid tickets due to time restriction are still not breaking the law.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No. No. No.
The 'm' word is wholly unnaceptable. I used it, as an aside borne of frustration, in my conversation with a Paddington gateline staffer, in January 2015. There was actually an internal dialogue going on in my head at that time as to what language I could use to express my incredulity without going so far as to lose the moral high ground. The 'm' word was, I now know, too far. It resulted in Network Rail security being called, and the threat of ejection from Paddington for alleged threatening and abusive behaviour.
So, use the 'm' word at your peril.
(There is however no escaping the fact that a small minority of staff appear to have been created by Jim Henson.
)
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The 'm' word is wholly unnaceptable. I used it, as an aside borne of frustration, in my conversation with a Paddington gateline staffer, in January 2015. There was actually an internal dialogue going on in my head at that time as to what language I could use to express my incredulity without going so far as to lose the moral high ground. The 'm' word was, I now know, too far. It resulted in Network Rail security being called, and the threat of ejection from Paddington for alleged threatening and abusive behaviour.
So, use the 'm' word at your peril.
(There is however no escaping the fact that a small minority of staff appear to have been created by Jim Henson.
A question if I may - are you like me quite tall and heavily built? I got threatened with security at Luton Airport for simply making an assertive complaint about lost luggage which contained no insult or unpleasant language whatsoever - the wording was just something like "well I'm afraid that is not good enough". Fortunately a manager overheard the exchange, told the member of staff not to be silly, sent them into the back and did deal with the issue adequately.
FWIW, Tesco supposedly have a policy (and I've seen it quoted in the press) that any argument or discussion, however polite, regarding a refusal to sell alcohol[1], results in ejection by security and police called if further discussion is attempted rather than leaving gracefully. It is not even acceptable to request a manager; the checkout staff's decision is final and unquestionable. I have seen this happen as well.
[1] This seems quite reasonable until you realise that the policy that supermarket operated a few years ago, may still be the case, is that if an adult is accompanied by a late-teenager, even if it is their own child, they may not be served alcohol because of the chance it may be given to the child. Only if ID can be shown to prove the child is actually not a child will it be sold. This gave rise to a number of press articles ridiculing said policy, which I have experienced myself when in the store with a young-looking friend[2] who had no ID on him, to all of which Tesco just said basically "it's our policy, get lost".
[2] Actually two friends, one of whom saw this go on while in the queue of another checkout, so he went back, got said alcohol, bought it, and we waved it happily at the security guard as we drove off
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I understand the angle you're coming from. Human nature to see a big burly bloke as threatening when they are merely being assertive.
That said. I'm 5'10" and overweight. That weight carried mostly just above the waist. Slight hunch due to back problem. Far from domineering.
Life has taught me to remain calm in these situations (bar the odd use of the 'm' word
), and my own training in customer service taught me the difference between assertiveness and aggression, rationality and irrationality. Unfortunately some folk in service industries don't know the difference between these polar opposites.There were jokes and smiles from me tonight when dealing with this latest incident. The anger and frustration was kept inside. That does have consequences though. Not being able to express those emotions is very stressful, on top of the situation itself. So one has to unload onto one's nearest and dearest. And/or post about it in detail on online forums.
Ahh... that feels better.
There are indeed some excellent staff there! I think I know who your saviour is! I won't name him obviously, but he is a forum member. But people that good won't stay on the gateline for long!
Jonfun
Established Member
Absolutely disgusting. Though it doesn't surprise me for Tesco, who have the most anti-customer attutude of all the supermarkets. I stopped shopping there after several bad experiences, topped off when a checkout operator laughed in my face and tried to humiliate me in front of the queue.
Going back to what Neil said, I would hope that the theoretical checkout operator summoning the police over someone politely discussing the issue and requesting a manager would themselves be led away in handcuffs and prosecuted for wasting police time. I'm a firm believer in karma, and with any luck, when the time comes that someone pulls a knife or a dirty needle or something on them in an attempted robbery, the officers will be too busy attending to someone in a store across town who wanted to complain to turn up. The police (and all emergency services) are stretched enough as it is and I have no respect for anyone who abuses the privilege of their time.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
To clarify, the checkout operator calls security. The police are only called if there is a refusal to then leave the store immediately once requested (i.e. there is trespass). They may well have toned this down a bit, though, it was a number of years ago (and for clarity the situation that involved me personally didn't go any further than the security guard asking me to leave and me doing so as requested - one thing that is a useful lesson to anyone is that once security are involved in any situation, for right or wrong, you will not win and might as well comply, and make a retrospective complaint if appropriate - which I didn't bother doing once I read a newspaper article describing a similar situation and finding to my surprise it was actually policy).
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I understand the angle you're coming from. Human nature to see a big burly bloke as threatening when they are merely being assertive.
That said. I'm 5'10" and overweight. That weight carried mostly just above the waist. Slight hunch due to back problem. Far from domineering.
Life has taught me to remain calm in these situations (bar the odd use of the 'm' word
There were jokes and smiles from me tonight when dealing with this latest incident. The anger and frustration was kept inside. That does have consequences though. Not being able to express those emotions is very stressful, on top of the situation itself. So one has to unload onto one's nearest and dearest. And/or post about it in detail on online forums.
Ahh... that feels better.
I really don't know how you're keeping calm. I'm not sure I'd be able to contain myself after so many occurrences of the same incompetence. I would be invoicing them £1 a minute for the delay though.
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