FGW at Paddington still getting evening Off Peak validity spectacularly wrong.

[nickswift99]

But, what to announce? Yes, it may be misleading to simply state "Ticket X is not valid", but it is surely equally unhelpful to say (as the boards do, in fact) "Ticket X may not be valid..." - what is an intending passenger, sat on a train due to leave in five minutes, supposed to do with that information? It's difficult to get it right; something along the lines of "Tickets X and Y from London Paddington to stations to X is perhaps as close to ideal as we're likely to get, but of course in practice there are many variables (including avoiding the hassle and checking no tickets at all...)!

I think the what to announce is really easy. For "Peak" services, simply announce that "Not all tickets are valid on this service. You can check by asking railway staff or by looking up any restriction printed on your ticket on the National Rail website. If you hold an Advance ticket, it must be for this train, which is the xxxx from Paddington to destination".

Then make sure ALL customer facing staff are properly trained and have access to a tool to check.

 

[yorkie]

Then make sure ALL customer facing staff are properly trained and have access to a tool to check.

The rail industry will NEVER do this.

 

[BestWestern]

I think the what to announce is really easy. For "Peak" services, simply announce that "Not all tickets are valid on this service. You can check by asking railway staff or by looking up any restriction printed on your ticket on the National Rail website. If you hold an Advance ticket, it must be for this train, which is the xxxx from Paddington to destination".

Then make sure ALL customer facing staff are properly trained and have access to a tool to check.

I agree, but I think that is something that passengers need to be hearing or seeing considerably earlier than a couple of minutes before departure. You've boarded the train, managed to find yourself a seat if you're lucky, got cumfy... Are you going to get off and trek around the platform trying to find somebody to ask, really?

What I'd like to see, at all major stations where this is a significant issue, are banks of computer terminals, similar to the sort of chunky, user friendly stuff you find in a branch of Argos or in the warehouse at Ikea to look up products on, into which you simply enter the restriction code which needs to be clearly printed on your ticket, and the answer is before you. A pretty simple thing to do, in the grand scheme of things.

 

[miami]

You could simply put the code into a ticket machine and it shows you the next few trains and which one it's valid on

I'm surprised the code isn't encoded on the magnetic strip though.

 

[bb21]

I think the what to announce is really easy. For "Peak" services, simply announce that "Not all tickets are valid on this service. You can check by asking railway staff or by looking up any restriction printed on your ticket on the National Rail website. If you hold an Advance ticket, it must be for this train, which is the xxxx from Paddington to destination".

What does that tell an average punter with an Off-Peak ticket? Virtually nothing useful.

Before you say go and find the train manager, how many people do you expect the train manager to deal with in the period before departure, in addition to everything else he has to do?

As I noted before, it is simply impossible to get this right, if you take everything into account, without drastic changes to the way restrictions work, yet I believe very few people want that on this forum.

 

[miami]

What does that tell an average punter with an Off-Peak ticket? Virtually nothing useful.

Before you say go and find the train manager, how many people do you expect the train manager to deal with in the period before departure, in addition to everything else he has to do?

As I noted before, it is simply impossible to get this right, if you take everything into account, without drastic changes to the way restrictions work, yet I believe very few people want that on this forum.

If someone has an itinerary or reservation, it's fine
If they don't, warn people their ticket may not be valid and they may have to pay an excess on board

There is no reason a computer can not correctly determine if a flexible ticket is valid

* Origin of ticket
* Destination of ticket
* Date of validity
* Restriction code

And of course
* Station
* Train departure time
* Train departure date

If the ticket is not valid it should also be able to excess the fare in the correct manner, this applies to routes as well as restrictions.

This should be built into TVMs on the platform, barriers, ticket selling machines on board, and available online.

If it makes a passenger-hurting mistake (we've all written code with bugs), and there's a complaint, the excess should be immediately refunded, with a fixed compensation on top (say a one-off £40, or 100% of the excess), and the bug fixed.

If the mistake is the other way round (letting someone on with an invalid ticket) then problem should be fixed, the customer apologised to, told it won't happen again, and the ticket endorsed for travel for the rest of the day.

 

[100andthirty]

I think the what to announce is really easy. For "Peak" services, simply announce that "Not all tickets are valid on this service. You can check by asking railway staff or by looking up any restriction printed on your ticket on the National Rail website. If you hold an Advance ticket, it must be for this train, which is the xxxx from Paddington to destination".

.

I do support this, but I suspect it applies to every train, not just peak ones.

 

[bb21]

If someone has an itinerary or reservation, it's fine
If they don't, warn people their ticket may not be valid and they may have to pay an excess on board

There is no reason a computer can not correctly determine if a flexible ticket is valid

* Origin of ticket
* Destination of ticket
* Date of validity
* Restriction code

And of course
* Station
* Train departure time
* Train departure date

If the ticket is not valid it should also be able to excess the fare in the correct manner, this applies to routes as well as restrictions.

This should be built into TVMs on the platform, barriers, ticket selling machines on board, and available online.

If it makes a passenger-hurting mistake (we've all written code with bugs), and there's a complaint, the excess should be immediately refunded, with a fixed compensation on top (say a one-off £40, or 100% of the excess), and the bug fixed.

If the mistake is the other way round (letting someone on with an invalid ticket) then problem should be fixed, the customer apologised to, told it won't happen again, and the ticket endorsed for travel for the rest of the day.

I was answering the point about onboard announcements. Are you talking about something else? I think we are at cross purposes.

 

[LexyBoy]

There is no reason a computer can not correctly determine if a flexible ticket is valid

Except that there's no software that will do this, and nobody's going to pay for it to be written.

 

[Haywain]

There is no reason a computer can not correctly determine if a flexible ticket is valid

* Origin of ticket
* Destination of ticket
* Date of validity
* Restriction code

And of course
* Station
* Train departure time
* Train departure date

If the ticket is not valid it should also be able to excess the fare in the correct manner, this applies to routes as well as restrictions.

This should be built into TVMs on the platform, barriers, ticket selling machines on board, and available online.

There is a reason that a computer cannot do this, and that is because not all of the required information is provided on the ticket in a machine readable form. And we don't have machines that would be capable of doing this regardless of having the software.

However, the principle is good and maybe, sometime in the future, that is how things could work.

 

[miami]

There is a reason that a computer cannot do this, and that is because not all of the required information is provided on the ticket in a machine readable form. And we don't have machines that would be capable of doing this regardless of having the software.

However, the principle is good and maybe, sometime in the future, that is how things could work.

I'm shocked the validity code isn't on there, however a QRcode could be (and indeed sometimes is) printed on new look tickets which would have the required data, the data string would need to be something like

TONDIDF3FEB2601

For validity (Valid on Feb26 for 1 day).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Except that there's no software that will do this, and nobody's going to pay for it to be written.

And that's why there should be punitive penalties for getting it wrong. It's unacceptable for people with valid ticket to be refused boarding. In the airline industry there are massive penalties for this (at least €250, and that can be on a €30 ticket).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was answering the point about onboard announcements. Are you talking about something else? I think we are at cross purposes.

The announcement would then say "many offpeak tickets are not valid on this service, to check your ticket use the machine on the platform"

 

[Haywain]

I'm shocked the validity code isn't on there, however a QRcode could be (and indeed sometimes is) printed on new look tickets which would have the required data, the data string would need to be something like

TONDIDF3FEB2601

For validity (Valid on Feb26 for 1 day).

I think you would be surprised by how little information is on the magnetic strip. A large amount of the available space is restricted for use by TfL, which is a result of them originally developing the technology. For a QR code to be useful it would also need to include information about the ticket type (at least single or return) and any discounts applied and the price paid before it could contribute to the process of calculating an excess fare.

And then you need a barcode reader, and the appropriate software, none of which is currently available. At the moment, the appropriate equipment is the human brain and, as with machines, this sometimes does the wrong thing. But the answer is new technology and equipment for ticketing, not the current technology and equipment.

 

[bb21]

The announcement would then say "many offpeak tickets are not valid on this service, to check your ticket use the machine on the platform"

OK then. When would you be making that announcement? After passengers are seated or before?

 

[jon0844]

There is a reason that a computer cannot do this, and that is because not all of the required information is provided on the ticket in a machine readable form. And we don't have machines that would be capable of doing this regardless of having the software.

However, the principle is good and maybe, sometime in the future, that is how things could work.

While I know there's a hope one day that everything goes paperless, can I ask why we couldn't have had magstrip readers upgraded over a period of time so that we could eventually switch to paper tickets that can store more information?

Or even disposable paper tickets with data stored on a chip?

If there had been some forward thinking, we could have had equipment upgraded over a long period, often when gates and TVMs were routinely upgraded or with new installs, and then we could now have tickets that stores a lot more data.

Seeing how long it has taken to change what's printed on the front, I think I know why it hasn't happened.

I am not sure we'll ever entirely get rid of paper tickets, so perhaps the solution is have paper smartcards (the cost would be pretty low given the mass production) as all equipment would eventually be upgraded to read them - and handheld terminals would work so much better, both for reading and also encoding tickets. Heck, staff could even 'update' tickets and add endorsements to the same ticket.

 

[najaB]

While I know there's a hope one day that everything goes paperless, can I ask why we couldn't have had magstrip readers upgraded over a period of time so that we could eventually switch to paper tickets that can store more information?

It's a standard, used for things other than just train tickets.

Or even disposable paper tickets with data stored on a chip?
...
I am not sure we'll ever entirely get rid of paper tickets, so perhaps the solution is have paper smartcards (the cost would be pretty low given the mass production) as all equipment would eventually be upgraded to read them

These exist. They use them on the Glasgow subway.

 

[jon0844]

It's a standard, used for things other than just train tickets.

And nobody has come up with a better system over the years that the railway could have moved on to?

Still, I think the moment passed years ago, so I was just wondering. Obviously you can't now introduce a new magnetic strip based system.

I think throwaway paper smartcards seem the logical next step, which could solve most ticketing problems and allow the extra benefits I mentioned.

 

[Haywain]

While I know there's a hope one day that everything goes paperless, can I ask why we couldn't have had magstrip readers upgraded over a period of time so that we could eventually switch to paper tickets that can store more information?

Or even disposable paper tickets with data stored on a chip?

If there had been some forward thinking, we could have had equipment upgraded over a long period, often when gates and TVMs were routinely upgraded or with new installs, and then we could now have tickets that stores a lot more data.

Seeing how long it has taken to change what's printed on the front, I think I know why it hasn't happened.

I am not sure we'll ever entirely get rid of paper tickets, so perhaps the solution is have paper smartcards (the cost would be pretty low given the mass production) as all equipment would eventually be upgraded to read them - and handheld terminals would work so much better, both for reading and also encoding tickets. Heck, staff could even 'update' tickets and add endorsements to the same ticket.

Well, what we could have had is largely irrelevant, so it's better to concern ourselves with what we might have in the future. There is starting to be an acceptance that smartcards are not the big answer, and m-Tickets seem to offer more promise (in my view). I think that forms of virtual ticket are the way ahead as they reduce the need for investment in equipment. So, it's just a matter of hoping that ticket barriers are developed to keep up, and restrictions written in a way that is easier to interpret through software. But, until then we're stuck with and limited by what we've got.

 

[100andthirty]

The Dutch use disposable paper tickets with a chip. They charge €1 extra for the ticket (at least forvthe ones I bought!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, what we could have had is largely irrelevant, so it's better to concern ourselves with what we might have in the future. There is starting to be an acceptance that smartcards are not the big answer, and m-Tickets seem to offer more promise (in my view). I think that forms of virtual ticket are the way ahead as they reduce the need for investment in equipment. So, it's just a matter of hoping that ticket barriers are developed to keep up, and restrictions written in a way that is easier to interpret through software. But, until then we're stuck with and limited by what we've got.

I am very clear in my mind that m-tickets or print at home tickets should have any restrictions clearly printed on the ticket, and not a mysterious code or symbol

 

[najaB]

And nobody has come up with a better system over the years that the railway could have moved on to?

They largely moved away from improving mag stripe technology because it's too easy to clone. Once chip technology came around mag stripe development pretty much stopped.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am very clear in my mind that m-tickets or print at home tickets should have any restrictions clearly printed on the ticket, and not a mysterious code or symbol

If you've got an A4 sheet to play with there is no particular reason the entire text of the restriction should not go on it.

 

[jon0844]

If you've got an A4 sheet to play with there is no particular reason the entire text of the restriction should not go on it.

We could have perhaps moved to two-sided printers, thus using some of the ample space on the rear.

What's more, you might even be able to sell more advertising (albeit smaller ads) on the back of a ticket if there was a reason for people to look there. So, it could have almost financed itself!

Again, probably a bit too late now!

 

[Bletchleyite]

They did put adverts on the back of tickets for a short while, pre-printed on the blanks. Didn't seem to take off.

 

[jon0844]

They did put adverts on the back of tickets for a short while, pre-printed on the blanks. Didn't seem to take off.

Probably because there's little reason to look on the back. But if the back contained information about the ticket, such as validity, or even an itinerary if you've booked online and collected, then suddenly that's prime advertising space.

 

[PermitToTravel]

They largely moved away from improving mag stripe technology because it's too easy to clone. Once chip technology came around mag stripe development pretty much stopped.

Train tickets don't actually have very much to do with the international magstripe standard. They can store roughly 50 times less data

 

[najaB]

Train tickets don't actually have very much to do with the international magstripe standard. They can store roughly 50 times less data

Yes, but the point is that since the advent of smart card technology there's been little incentive to develop mag stripe based technologies.

 

[bnm]

There's been little incentive to do anything about the outdated ticketing system used by the UK's rail's industry.

It is essentially still APTIS, developed in the mid 1980s. Albeit with PC based software rather than the original terminals with their bubble memory. Today's PC based software is not a revolution of APTIS though, merely a cheap fix to allow for continued use of an outdated ticketing system.

The fractured nature of the industry means it is highly unlikely that a unified system will be developed now, or in the near future.

 

[jon0844]

The DfT should have introduced new ticketing nationally, not franchise by franchise and with some TOCs dragging their heels because nobody seems to care. (Govia I'm looking at you).

 

[kevinwaltets]

Having written software for mag stripe tickets in the past. I can tell you that without multi track encoding and readers there are just not enough bytes available on the stripe.

Remember that the Ticket has to be able to be read by both automated barriers that control the speed of swipe and on occasions hand swiping, which puts limitations on the density of the encoding.

To change the standard would be extremely costly.

Kevin

 

[Camden]

Having written software for mag stripe tickets in the past. I can tell you that without multi track encoding and readers there are just not enough bytes available on the stripe.

Remember that the Ticket has to be able to be read by both automated barriers that control the speed of swipe and on occasions hand swiping, which puts limitations on the density of the encoding.

To change the standard would be extremely costly.

Kevin

Hi Kevin, I've often wondered what information is actually stored on tickets/smartcards and how their validity is checked.

I presume all the scanners, be they in ticket barriers or handhelds, are connected to the internet in order to perform validity checks on the information presented?

 

[Llanigraham]

Hi Kevin, I've often wondered what information is actually stored on tickets/smartcards and how their validity is checked.

I presume all the scanners, be they in ticket barriers or handhelds, are connected to the internet in order to perform validity checks on the information presented?

I very much doubt it!!