Fined by Merseyrail as I had “come too far” without a ticket. Should I fight it?

[WirralBeb]

Apologies if this is the incorrect place to post but I am a bit desperate for advice. What are the implications if I try and fight the fine? I can’t really afford to pay it right now.

I recently travelled with Merseyrail, my local train operator. They still run a buy a ticket at a booth service at my local station. At my local station there is one counter. At the time of travelling my local stations only ticket booth was closed with a sign saying ‘pay at destination’ This is usually a regular occurrence at this station. There is no self service and no way to pay for a ticket online.

I made my way to an unfamiliar station with no ticket intending to pay at the destination (I was travelling to watch a football match) As there were large crowds I followed them assuming I would pass this stations ticket office on the way.

Instead it was the exit with Merseyrail guards ready and waiting. They asked me for my ticket so I stated it was pay at destination and had a photo to prove it. They said I had gone past the ticket office. I apologised and said I would go back and pay and I didn’t realise I had missed it. At this point the guard said I had “come too far” and had to be fined. They were quite rude and it was quite embarrassing. I didn’t kick up a fuss as there were police in attendance. It was a very disheartening experience where I felt like I was being treated like a criminal.

I had absolutely no intention of trying to bunk a £4 fair. I legitimately didn’t realise I had gone past the ticket office. I’ve used this service for 30+ years. I don’t mean to come across holy but usually at the time of travel I’d be volunteering at my local tour centre, not bunking fares.

I have received a letter saying I must settle an out of court fine of £125 or be taken to court. The letter sets out no process to appeal. I’ve reached out to Merseyrail and they have given me an email address to appeal the fine but already they are not making it easy.

I find this a very worrying practice as there were many other who were caught out travelling to the game. How often are they doing this and making money from fines with threatening letters?

I’ve added the letter I received and a response to the email I sent to appeal the fine.

Thanks in advance

 

[rs101]

I'd wait for the experts to arrive, but reading their byelaws, I can' see how a prosecution for breaching 18.2 could succeed.
18.3 says "No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18.1 or 18.2 if: (i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey;"

You've got clear evidence of that - the photo of the sign.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I'd wait for the experts to arrive, but reading their byelaws, I can' see how a prosecution for breaching 18.2 could succeed.
18.3 says "No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18.1 or 18.2 if: (i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey;"

You've got clear evidence of that - the photo of the sign.

Agreed. I don't have time to help with a letter, though I'm sure others will.

There is a risk that they may still want to run to court - be prepared for that chance.

 

[RPI]

This would be a prosecution under RRA as the OP had been stopped after the last point of payment.if not stopped where they were stopped then would the fare have been paid?

 

[M28361M]

You don't say which station you alighted at but with the reference to a football match I am guessing Sandhills? That does have a slightly unusual layout with the ticket office located on the island platform rather than in the entrance passageway. Depending on which part of the train you alighted from, it's possible to leave the station without walking past or noticing the ticket office. Whether that would be accepted as mitigation is something I leave to the forum experts.

 

[185143]

You don't say which station you alighted at but with the reference to a football match I am guessing Sandhills? That does have a slightly unusual layout with the ticket office located on the island platform rather than in the entrance passageway. Depending on which part of the train you alighted from, it's possible to leave the station without walking past or noticing the ticket office. Whether that would be accepted as mitigation is something I leave to the forum experts.

Admittedly I've never been to Sandhills on a match day and have no desire whatsoever to change that fact.

Given the more unusual location of the ticket office (in particular) depending on where the revenue inspections were taking place, it wouldn't seem unreasonable in my opinion for someone to see/hear staff checking tickets and, knowing they need one, to approach said staff in order to purchase one.

Could it also be the case, noting the Police were present, that they wanted the platforms cleared ASAP and funnelled everyone down to the exit? Obviously only the OP can answer that in this case, though it's not implausible given an island platform such as Sandhills with a very frequent train service either side doesn't strike me as somewhere you want large crowds gathering for longer than necessary, particularly when alcohol will be involved.

Obviously most of the above is speculation; I'm making the presumption it's Sandhills involved. I've seen BTP escorts to Tranmere before now, so it's by no means a given it's Sandhills. Just some thoughts in case it is.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Travelling to Rock Ferry perhaps? Maybe the OP can confirm.

 

[WirralBeb]

Admittedly I've never been to Sandhills on a match day and have no desire whatsoever to change that fact.

Given the more unusual location of the ticket office (in particular) depending on where the revenue inspections were taking place, it wouldn't seem unreasonable in my opinion for someone to see/hear staff checking tickets and, knowing they need one, to approach said staff in order to purchase one.

Could it also be the case, noting the Police were present, that they wanted the platforms cleared ASAP and funnelled everyone down to the exit? Obviously only the OP can answer that in this case, though it's not implausible given an island platform such as Sandhills with a very frequent train service either side doesn't strike me as somewhere you want large crowds gathering for longer than necessary, particularly when alcohol will be involved.

Obviously most of the above is speculation; I'm making the presumption it's Sandhills involved. I've seen BTP escorts to Tranmere before now, so it's by no means a given it's Sandhills. Just some thoughts in case it is.

Apologies yes it was Sandhills. The connection between Bebington and Sandhills does not have any barriers or booths along the way. Unless you make your way to the top in Moorfields but there are gates you’d have to get through and very much out the way.

There were a large amount of people on the train so it was very much ‘pushed along with the crowd’ type of situation.

In other stations, e.g Liverpool Central, they have staff before the barrier who you can purchase a ticket from if it’s pay at destination. So my assumption, which may have been wrong, was I could do the same at Sandhills.

Travelling to Rock Ferry perhaps? Maybe the OP can confirm.

Yes apologies, it was Bebington to Sandhills, just responded to 185s response with more detail, thanks.

You don't say which station you alighted at but with the reference to a football match I am guessing Sandhills? That does have a slightly unusual layout with the ticket office located on the island platform rather than in the entrance passageway. Depending on which part of the train you alighted from, it's possible to leave the station without walking past or noticing the ticket office. Whether that would be accepted as mitigation is something I leave to the forum experts.

Hi yes apologies it was Sandhills. As you have mentioned the ticket office is in an unusual place and it was my first time travelling to Sandhills. It did not help that I just thought to follow the crowd assuming, like other stations, that I could mention to a guard it was pay at destination and they could take payment.

I'd wait for the experts to arrive, but reading their byelaws, I can' see how a prosecution for breaching 18.2 could succeed.
18.3 says "No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18.1 or 18.2 if: (i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey;"

You've got clear evidence of that - the photo of the sign.

Thank you, this is very helpful. I’m a completely unfamiliar with the process and have never been fined before. Having this information helps me do some more digging. The photo also has a timestamp on it.

This would be a prosecution under RRA as the OP had been stopped after the last point of payment.if not stopped where they were stopped then would the fare have been paid?

Yes that is what the mentioned, I had gone past the point of last payment. It was a station I had not been to before, I went along with the crowd, the ticket office is on the island whereas usually it’s near the entrance / exit. Admittedly I should have searched a bit more but I honestly thought a guard could just point me in the right direction or the guard could take payment like they do in other stations e.g Liverpool Central

Agreed. I don't have time to help with a letter, though I'm sure others will.

There is a risk that they may still want to run to court - be prepared for that chance.

Thank you, that is what I am currently trying to weigh up. Whether it is worth running the risk of possibly paying more and being taken to court. I’ve no idea how I would fair in a court.

It’s annoying as I would have paid the for a ticket if they ticket booth had been open and none of this would have happened. I am also concerned if this is a common practice and many are being fined due to misunderstanding / confusion.

 

[fandroid]

Did you actually pass the Sandhills ticket booth after you got off the train? What was the crowd situation like on the platform there? Was it such that it would have been difficult/unsafe to go against the flow of people on an island platform?

 

[Haywain]

As you have mentioned the ticket office is in an unusual place and it was my first time travelling to Sandhills. It did not help that I just thought to follow the crowd assuming, like other stations, that I could mention to a guard it was pay at destination and they could take payment.

I think that Merseyrail would perhaps find this a poor line of argument. Your profile here gives your location as the Wirral and you state you travelled from Bebington to Sandhills for football, attending a Liverpool match in the Premier League, and yet this was the first time you had made this journey. My gut feeling is that actually sounds a little unlikely. You should therefore focus on the lack of ticket buying facilities at Bebington, in my opinion.

 

[sheff1]

This would be a prosecution under RRA

The letter only refers to Merseyrail Byelaw 18.2, no mention of RRA.

 

[Titfield]

I think this is going to be difficult to resolve to the OPs satisfaction.

The simple fact is that the OP had to pay for his ticket at the destination which he did not do. He knew he had to pay at the destination at the time he boarded the train because he saw the notice displayed, indeed he knew it was a possibility in advance of this because as he states "this is usually a regular occurrence at this station".

He therefore knew without doubt that upon arrival he had to pay for his ticket. It was his responsibility to ensure he navigated his way to the ticket office and purchase a ticket. Whether he had visited this station before or not is irrelevant. If he had, he would have known where the ticket office was and should have gone there. If he had not, he should have asked a member of staff or fellow passenger for the location of the ticket office or followed the signage rather than "following the crowd". It was obvious that the crowd was heading to the exit. Relying on what happens at Liverpool Central, where according to the OP, there is a member of staff who sells tickets seems to me to be a risky practice given that if the member of staff is not there, or there is a change of policy the passenger is very much at risk of what has happened on this occasion.

The OP states that he has been using this service for 30 years. This makes it more unlikely that either he did not know where the ticket office was or that he did not know that there are some stations where there are means of exiting a station that does not take you past a ticket office. The onus is on the honest passenger not to go "the wrong way" but to (ascertain where and) go to the ticket office.

I think that the penalty is very harsh indeed and certainly disproportionate to the fare unpaid however it seems to me there is no lesser penalty which could either be applied or Merseyrail would agree to impose. If the OP went to court then I fear there is a high probability that the Magistrates would view the matter as I have above and thus the penalty in total would be considerably more than Merseyrail are seeking by way of an out of court settlement. This occurrence has all the hallmarks of "pay when challenged" and thus the course of action Merseyrail are taking.

The OP has not, unless I have missed it, advised us of the content of the email he sent which elicited their response. Given it was probably what he has now said to this forum it seems to me that by their brief response Merseyrail are already inclined to reject it.

I think my advice would be to find the means to pay "the fine" to avoid the matter escalating to court and then write again to Merseyrail asking them to consider refunding the "fine". If they ask why you paid the fine I do not think it is unreasonable to state that you did not want the matter escalating without warning ie they could have rejected your appeal and gone straight to court without giving you a chance to pay the £125 originally demanded.

I am sorry this sounds as harsh as it does - and I apologise for that - but it is one of those classic cases where making an understandable but erroneous assumption costs a great deal. The issue at hand is really weighing up the risk. Pay £125 to resolve it or take a chance if it going to probably treble this in a court.

 

[Statto]

Merseyrail are one of those TOCs that have ticket offices open before the first train of the day until the last train of the day at all stations in the Merseyside area, also Merseyrail have a Penalty Fare system, so buy it's before you start your journey [as long as the ticket office is open] not at the other end.

I know Bebington station quite well & the ticket office is right next to the main entrance & hard to miss, being late for the train is no excuse either, given theirs 6 trains an hour until 7pm Monday to Saturday, & 4 trains an hour Sundays.

 

[Kite159]

Merseyrail are one of those TOCs that have ticket offices open before the first train of the day until the last train of the day at all stations in the Merseyside area, also Merseyrail have a Penalty Fare system, so buy it's before you start your journey [as long as the ticket office is open] not at the other end.

I know Bebington station quite well & the ticket office is right next to the main entrance & hard to miss, being late for the train is no excuse either, given theirs 6 trains an hour until 7pm Monday to Saturday, & 4 trains an hour Sundays.

The OP mentioned "At the time of travelling my local stations only ticket booth was closed with a sign saying ‘pay at destination’" which isn't that unusual for Merseyrail stations for the ticket offices to be closed due to a lack of staff.

---

As for the OP, I suspect what Merseyrail would expect someone to have done is to purchase the ticket at the interchange station of Moorfields

 

[northwichcat]

The OP mentioned "At the time of travelling my local stations only ticket booth was closed with a sign saying ‘pay at destination’" which isn't that unusual for Merseyrail stations for the ticket offices to be closed due to a lack of staff.

---

As for the OP, I suspect what Merseyrail would expect someone to have done is to purchase the ticket at the interchange station of Moorfields

I wouldn't call an interchange station the destination. The destination is where you're travelling to, not where you're changing trains. However, where would the limit be drawn? Could you jump on another operator's service at Chester, and then another at Birmingham?

 

[WirralBeb]

I think that Merseyrail would perhaps find this a poor line of argument. Your profile here gives your location as the Wirral and you state you travelled from Bebington to Sandhills for football, attending a Liverpool match in the Premier League, and yet this was the first time you had made this journey. My gut feeling is that actually sounds a little unlikely. You should therefore focus on the lack of ticket buying facilities at Bebington, in my opinion.

That makes sense. It’s the first time I’ve taken the train to the game. I usually drive over. I only go when my friend can’t use their season ticket.
Will definitely hone in on the lack of facilities to purchase a ticket in the first place. Thank you.

Merseyrail are one of those TOCs that have ticket offices open before the first train of the day until the last train of the day at all stations in the Merseyside area, also Merseyrail have a Penalty Fare system, so buy it's before you start your journey [as long as the ticket office is open] not at the other end.

I know Bebington station quite well & the ticket office is right next to the main entrance & hard to miss, being late for the train is no excuse either, given theirs 6 trains an hour until 7pm Monday to Saturday, & 4 trains an hour Sundays.

Thanks. With being in work all day, i was unable to purchase a ticket earlier in the day. Upon arrival at Bebington Station I went into the building on the right and it said pay at destination. I was on time for the train and arrived early to get a ticket. The ticket office I missed was at Sandhills.

 

[WirralBeb]

I wouldn't call an interchange station the destination. The destination is where you're travelling to, not where you're changing trains. However, where would the limit be drawn? Could you jump on another operator's service at Chester, and then another at Birmingham?

Exactly. You change station in the underground part. So I’d have had to make my way to the top. Which surely would mean I was doing exactly the same as I did at Sandhills.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't call an interchange station the destination. The destination is where you're travelling to, not where you're changing trains. However, where would the limit be drawn? Could you jump on another operator's service at Chester, and then another at Birmingham?

You aren't expected to miss a connection to purchase, but otherwise it must be at the first opportunity. With 8-12tph from Central to Sandhills, though, the case for not paying at the change point here is a bit weak.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I wouldn't call an interchange station the destination. The destination is where you're travelling to, not where you're changing trains. However, where would the limit be drawn? Could you jump on another operator's service at Chester, and then another at Birmingham?

The NRCoT requires you to purchase a ticket at the earliest reasonable opportunity in the circumstances described by the OP.

Arguably for the OP's journey, that would be at Moorfields given there are 10tph between there and Sandhills most of the time.

Less reasonable if you were doing a journey like Wrexham Central to Shrewsbury, which has a sub-10 minute connection at Wrexham General and only 1 or 2tph onwards.

 

[WirralBeb]

I think this is going to be difficult to resolve to the OPs satisfaction.

The simple fact is that the OP had to pay for his ticket at the destination which he did not do. He knew he had to pay at the destination at the time he boarded the train because he saw the notice displayed, indeed he knew it was a possibility in advance of this because as he states "this is usually a regular occurrence at this station".

He therefore knew without doubt that upon arrival he had to pay for his ticket. It was his responsibility to ensure he navigated his way to the ticket office and purchase a ticket. Whether he had visited this station before or not is irrelevant. If he had, he would have known where the ticket office was and should have gone there. If he had not, he should have asked a member of staff or fellow passenger for the location of the ticket office or followed the signage rather than "following the crowd". It was obvious that the crowd was heading to the exit. Relying on what happens at Liverpool Central, where according to the OP, there is a member of staff who sells tickets seems to me to be a risky practice given that if the member of staff is not there, or there is a change of policy the passenger is very much at risk of what has happened on this occasion.

The OP states that he has been using this service for 30 years. This makes it more unlikely that either he did not know where the ticket office was or that he did not know that there are some stations where there are means of exiting a station that does not take you past a ticket office. The onus is on the honest passenger not to go "the wrong way" but to (ascertain where and) go to the ticket office.

I think that the penalty is very harsh indeed and certainly disproportionate to the fare unpaid however it seems to me there is no lesser penalty which could either be applied or Merseyrail would agree to impose. If the OP went to court then I fear there is a high probability that the Magistrates would view the matter as I have above and thus the penalty in total would be considerably more than Merseyrail are seeking by way of an out of court settlement. This occurrence has all the hallmarks of "pay when challenged" and thus the course of action Merseyrail are taking.

The OP has not, unless I have missed it, advised us of the content of the email he sent which elicited their response. Given it was probably what he has now said to this forum it seems to me that by their brief response Merseyrail are already inclined to reject it.

I think my advice would be to find the means to pay "the fine" to avoid the matter escalating to court and then write again to Merseyrail asking them to consider refunding the "fine". If they ask why you paid the fine I do not think it is unreasonable to state that you did not want the matter escalating without warning ie they could have rejected your appeal and gone straight to court without giving you a chance to pay the £125 originally demanded.

I am sorry this sounds as harsh as it does - and I apologise for that - but it is one of those classic cases where making an understandable but erroneous assumption costs a great deal. The issue at hand is really weighing up the risk. Pay £125 to resolve it or take a chance if it going to probably treble this in a court.

Thank you this is exactly what I am trying to understand, is there any point fighting this as I’ll just end up with more costs. So this is helpful.

I do fully intend to complain about the way the fine was handled by the member of staff. It was instantly accusatory and belittling. So I will be following up on this.

I will also be asking what they will do to ensure others do not end up in this scenario. There must be others who have had this happen (as mentioned others were being fined for the same reason) Even if I turned out to be jumping a fair the facts are still valid. It’s their fault I couldn’t get a ticket in a first place. Why were the guards not place before the exit end so I didn’t have to accidentally make my way to the exit before realising it was the exit.

The advice regarding asking for a refund is also useful, I hadn’t thought to do that.

Thanks for the honesty.

 

[Statto]

I wouldn't call an interchange station the destination. The destination is where you're travelling to, not where you're changing trains. However, where would the limit be drawn? Could you jump on another operator's service at Chester, and then another at Birmingham

On Merseyrail the interchange stations for Sandhills from Wirral are Moorfields or Liverpool Central, & at both stations you have to pass through the barriers to get to the ticket office, & Liverpool Central has the barriers manned with an army of Ticket Inspectors.

The OP mentioned "At the time of travelling my local stations only ticket booth was closed with a sign saying ‘pay at destination’" which isn't that unusual for Merseyrail stations for the ticket offices to be closed due to a lack of staff.

---

As for the OP, I suspect what Merseyrail would expect someone to have done is to purchase the ticket at the interchange station of Moorfields

I see, Sandhills used to have the ticket office in the subway, then moved it to where it is now, which is on the platform inside the waiting rooms so can be easy to miss.

 

[Gaelan]

You aren't expected to miss a connection to purchase, but otherwise it must be at the first opportunity. With 8-12tph from Central to Sandhills, though, the case for not paying at the change point here is a bit weak.

Of course, in this case there was a sign saying "pay at destination" - not "pay at destination or interchange point, whichever comes first" - so it's hard to blame a passenger for proceeding as they were told.

 

[Parham Wood]

I would pay and then appeal or complain (I am not sure if you can appeal after payment of the penalty) on the basis that the sign said pay at destination a clear instruction from Merseyrail , that you were unfamiliar with where the destination pay point was and that due to the crowds it was unsafe and difficult to go against the flow and also to see where the pay point was. Just a personal opinion.

 

[6Gman]

On Merseyrail the interchange stations for Sandhills from Wirral are Moorfields or Liverpool Central, & at both stations you have to pass through the barriers to get to the ticket office, & Liverpool Central has the barriers manned with an army of Ticket Inspectors.



I see, Sandhills used to have the ticket office in the subway, then moved it to where it is now, which is on the platform inside the waiting rooms so can be easy to miss.

And at Moorfields it is a long way from the platforms to the gateline and booking office.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, in this case there was a sign saying "pay at destination" - not "pay at destination or interchange point, whichever comes first" - so it's hard to blame a passenger for proceeding as they were told.

Though if I recall rightly Merseyrail display quite a lot of posters pointing out that you should pay at the interchange point unless that would unduly delay you, or somesuch wording.

I would however agree that at Moorfields it probably would. By contrast were the OP going from Wirral to Northern at Central then they'd pretty much walk past the gateline and so ignoring it would probably not be seen as reasonable.

 

[sheff1]

The NRCoT requires you to purchase a ticket at the earliest reasonable opportunity in the circumstances described by the OP.

Arguably for the OP's journey, that would be at Moorfields given there are 10tph between there and Sandhills most of the time.

Surely the notice "pay at destination" gives people the right to pay at the destination (assuming no ticket seller on the train). Moorfields was not the destination.

 

[P Binnersley]

The letter only refers to Merseyrail Byelaw 18.2, no mention of RRA.

MerseyRail Byelaw 18 states:

18 Ticketless Travel In Non-Compulsory Ticket Areas

18.1 In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

18.2 A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

18.3 No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18.1 or 18.2 if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

Given there was a notice at the origin station to "pay at the destination", a prosecution under 18.2 would fail due to 18.3(ii).

The ability to purchase a ticket at Sandhills is not relevant to a byelaw prosecution.

A RRA prosecution requires "intent" to avoid the fare. Given your version of the conversation with the inspector and the unusual layout of Sandhills this would be difficult to prove.

 

[sheff1]

MerseyRail Byelaw 18 states:


Given there was a notice at the origin station to "pay at the destination", a prosecution under 18.2 would fail due to 18.3(ii).

The ability to purchase a ticket at Sandhills is not relevant to a byelaw prosecution.

A RRA prosecution requires "intent" to avoid the fare. Given your version of the conversation with the inspector and the unusual layout of Sandhills this would be difficult to prove.

Could, after referring to a Byelaw prosecution (which, as you say, would fail). Merseyrail legitimately change to a RRA prosecution anyway?

 

[sansyy]

Could, after referring to a Byelaw prosecution (which, as you say, would fail). Merseyrail legitimately change to a RRA prosecution anyway?

Changing the prosecution would look weird and prejudice would it not? Seems like they'd be chasing a bit too much by failing to prosecute and then changing it to try and make it valid.

 

[furlong]

You had not gone too far because you could see that the "Merseyrail guards" were there who could obviously have taken payment from you? You had permission to pay at your destination and that's what you were ready to do when speaking to them?

I don't think you've shown us your response, but I'd have gone for something along the lines of: thanks for your letter, in reference to the alleged breach of 18.2 as you are already aware there was a notice complying with 18.3(ii) so there was no offence: in line with the notice I offered to pay my fare at my destination but your staff inexplicably refused to accept my payment: Kindly acknowledge you'll be taking no further action and that you are closing the matter. Optionally ask for investigations and staff retraining and enclose a cheque for the fare but personally I wouldn't bother as I already offered to pay for the journey and they didn't want to take my money, so they need to apologise to me and ask again if they really aren't prepared to write it off as a loss caused by their own mistake and as I'd add on my own costs (compared to paying when I offered) if the fare was low it might end up with them having to pay me.