Fined for not using cash on promise to pay

[TrainTicket123]

Me and my friend I’m 17 and 15 just throwing that out there incase it’s necessary we’re on the train we got promise to pays and I’ve used promise to pay for over a year on trains and on always payed on the train with card. There was no ticket man on the train so at the train station we try to pay they said cash only and it was apparently on the promise to pay yet that we could only use cash yet there was a card reader right at the desk. We said didn’t have change so I told them oh wait my friend has change h can try pay his ticket then just give me the fine they said no I said why and that I could pull money out from the ATM round the corner and they said no and they would just issue the fine right then and there. can anyone give me advice only because we offered to pay for one ticket with the change we had but denied it and wouldn’t let me just simply use an atm.

 

[AlterEgo]

Me and my friend I’m 17 and 15 just throwing that out there incase it’s necessary we’re on the train we got promise to pays and I’ve used promise to pay for over a year on trains and on always payed on the train with card. There was no ticket man on the train so at the train station we try to pay they said cash only and it was apparently on the promise to pay yet that we could only use cash yet there was a card reader right at the desk. We said didn’t have change so I told them oh wait my friend has change h can try pay his ticket then just give me the fine they said no I said why and that I could pull money out from the ATM round the corner and they said no and they would just issue the fine right then and there. can anyone give me advice only because we offered to pay for one ticket with the change we had but denied it and wouldn’t let me just simply use an atm.

Did the station you board at have a card-only ticket machine? If so, why did you not use it to get a ticket before you boarded, and why did you instead get a Promise to Pay?

 

[Bertie the bus]

You had the opportunity to purchase a ticket using a card but chose not to and instead printed a promise to pay. I'm pretty sure when you choose a promise to pay on a Northern TVM it tells you at least once payment must be in cash.

It is very difficult to imagine any reason to use a TVM to print a promise to pay when you intend to pay by card unless you only intend to purchase a ticket when challenged. That is almost certainly why you were issued with a PF.

 

[methecooldude]

I think you have played silly games and won silly prizes. As the other 2 members have noted, promise to pay is designed if you want to pay in cash. You chose to not pay with your cards at the TVM, that's why the PF was issued

 

[jfollows]

Promise to Pay is a method of paying by cash if there is no facility for this at the departure station - no ticket office, machine does not take cash, machine is broken.
From https://northernrail.my.site.com/s/article/Penalty-Fares (may not be authoritative)

What is a Promise to Pay notice?​

A Promise to Pay notice is a ticket that must be obtained from our ticket vending machines if customers do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card. The Promise to Pay notice allows customers to board the train with the intention of exchanging the notice at the first opportunity with a conductor, or at the next available booking office.

 

[TrainTicket123]

I didnt play any game i only got a promise to pay because the train was about to get there and the machine was very slow

Did the station you board at have a card-only ticket machine? If so, why did you not use it to get a ticket before you boarded, and why did you instead get a Promise to Pay?

I got a promise to pay as the machine was very slow when i tried to get a ticket and my train was almost there

 

[Bertie the bus]

I’ve used promise to pay for over a year on trains and on always payed on the train with card.

I got a promise to pay as the machine was very slow when i tried to get a ticket and my train was almost there

You have totally contradicted yourself.

 

[185143]

I didnt play any game i only got a promise to pay because the train was about to get there and the machine was very slow


I got a promise to pay as the machine was very slow when i tried to get a ticket and my train was almost there

No chance. You have to go through the same motions as if you're buying a ticket in order to get a promise to pay.

Plus by your own admission you regularly get a promise to pay and then pay when challenged. We're not stupid and neither are Northern.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's exactly what anyone from Northern (or any TOC for that matter) hearing such an argument will instantly think.

 

[methecooldude]

You have totally contradicted yourself.

^This...
If you really expect us to believe anything you are saying, it helps to start with the truth.

 

[TrainTicket123]

You have totally contradicted yourself.

I havent whats so ever. Im saying is in the past ive used promise to pay numerous times

No chance. You have to go through the same motions as if you're buying a ticket in order to get a promise to pay.

Plus by your own admission you regularly get a promise to pay and then pay when challenged. We're not stupid and neither are Northern.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's exactly what anyone from Northern (or any TOC for that matter) hearing such an argument will instantly think.

I hope youre not trying to assume im trying to run some sort of scam. Ive only used promise to pays as its more convenient and if the past if my train was there I would quickly get one as the instructor said to do that as its to avoid being fined for getting on train with no ticket

No chance. You have to go through the same motions as if you're buying a ticket in order to get a promise to pay.

Plus by your own admission you regularly get a promise to pay and then pay when challenged. We're not stupid and neither are Northern.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's exactly what anyone from Northern (or any TOC for that matter) hearing such an argument will instantly think.

No because when i went to get a ticket it was taking ages to load and was being buggy so thats why i did promise to pay more convenient

 

[Gwr12345]

No because when i went to get a ticket it was taking ages to load and was being buggy so thats why i did promise to pay more convenient

In my experience the method to get a promise to pay is nigh on the same as buying an actual ticket? It still takes ages!

I hope youre not trying to assume im trying to run some sort of scam. Ive only used promise to pays as its more convenient and if the past if my train was there I would quickly get one as the instructor said to do that as its to avoid being fined for getting on train with no ticket

Unfortunately convenience does not change the validity of the penalty fare. A promise to pay is the option only for cash at stations with a card only ticket machine.

 

[The exile]

No chance. You have to go through the same motions as if you're buying a ticket in order to get a promise to pay.

Plus by your own admission you regularly get a promise to pay and then pay when challenged. We're not stupid and neither are Northern.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's exactly what anyone from Northern (or any TOC for that matter) hearing such an argument will instantly think.

Even if getting a promise to pay were a lot quicker than buying a ticket (as it used to be with the old "Permit to Travel" machines), this does not excuse getting one if you had the means to pay for a ticket at the machine. It is your responsibility to leave enough time to buy a ticket before you board. As you are 17, I'm sure you are very used to doing this sort of thing on your phone (even if you've never actually bought a railway ticket that way). All of the occasions in the past when you've been permitted to pay by card having got a promise to pay are times when you've been lucky ( and no doubt there have been other occasions when you've been even luckier).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

That is almost certainly why you were issued with a PF.

Has the OP definitely been issued with a PF? Have we seen it? (Either way, any name and address details showing need to be suitably obscured or covered up). Might there be technical reasons why it could, perhaps, be successfully appealed?

 

[Sheffcaster202]

The promise to pay actually has it printed on it that you must pay by cash…I may have an old one in my bag so will go and look to check the exact wording but I am sure there is reference to a penalty fare if payment is not made in this way.

 

[najaB]

Ive only used promise to pays as its more convenient and if the past if my train was there I would quickly get one as the instructor said to do that as its to avoid being fined for getting on train with no ticket

Problem there is that the Promise to Pay is only supposed to be used if you cannot pay for your ticket at the station where you board. Not if you don't want to, or don't have time to, or any other reason that it's convenient.

If you were issued a penalty fare then you really should pay it. And leave yourself more time at the station in future, or pay for your tickets online.

 

[185]

The promise to pay actually has it printed on it that you must pay by cash…I may have an old one in my bag so will go and look to check the exact wording but I am sure there is reference to a penalty fare if payment is not made in this way.

"you must pay this in full by cash only or you will incur a penalty fare" - is printed on the ticket.

 

[najaB]

"you must pay this in full by cash only or you will incur a penalty fare" - is printed on the ticket.

Not that it is of any use to the OP since they paid by card, but that wording is... problematic? What if I want to pay using a RTV, for example? Is that classed as a cash equivalent?

 

[island]

Not that it is of any use to the OP since they paid by card, but that wording is... problematic? What if I want to pay using a RTV, for example? Is that classed as a cash equivalent?

I would suggest that side point be best discussed in a new thread to avoid distraction from the OP's issue.

To the OP – it's very clear that you're trying to "pay only when challenged". If you have a card you should be using it to buy your ticket and not getting a promise to pay. The penalty fare was properly issued. Cough up.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I didnt play any game i only got a promise to pay because the train was about to get there and the machine was very slow


I got a promise to pay as the machine was very slow when i tried to get a ticket and my train was almost there

I have had a Northern Ticket Vending Machine “lock up” on me at the authorising credit card payment stage. After trying twice and wasting five minutes, I resorted to getting a Promise to Pay voucher, which the machine issued quickly without any problem, as proof that I had intended to pay. I did attempt to settle the outstanding fare with cash at my destination though, even though I would have preferred to pay by card.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have had a Northern Ticket Vending Machine “lock up” on me at the authorising credit card payment stage. After trying twice and wasting five minutes, I resorted to getting a Promise to Pay voucher, which the machine issued quickly without any problem, as proof that I had intended to pay. I did attempt to settle the outstanding fare with cash at my destination though, even though I would have preferred to pay by card.

In that sort of case if I didn't have the cash to hand I'd probably film the machine failing repeatedly and the PtP being obtained. Though most people who have a smartphone on which they'd film a TVM failing would probably just purchase using said phone to start with.

 

[skyhigh]

I have had a Northern Ticket Vending Machine “lock up” on me at the authorising credit card payment stage. After trying twice and wasting five minutes, I resorted to getting a Promise to Pay voucher, which the machine issued quickly without any problem, as proof that I had intended to pay. I did attempt to settle the outstanding fare with cash at my destination though, even though I would have preferred to pay by card.

That doesn't apply to the OP, and they didn't even have enough cash for the fare.

 

[Starmill]

In that sort of case if I didn't have the cash to hand I'd probably film the machine failing repeatedly and the PtP being obtained. Though most people who have a smartphone on which they'd film a TVM failing would probably just purchase using said phone to start with.

If, for some reason, you can't do that, the best option is to use the help point and explain why you're unable to get a ticket. They'll likely take your name and address down, and authorise you to board and pay on the train.

Incidentally if you're arriving at a station without having yet bought a ticket this is one reason why it's important to leave yourself a few spare minutes, and also one of the best benefits of tap-on-tap-off pay as you go. Of course being able to buy in an app is almost as good.

As far as the OP is concerned if you've been issued with a Penalty Fare you probably need to pay, quickly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If, for some reason, you can't do that, the best option is to use the help point and explain why you're unable to get a ticket. They'll likely take your name and address down, and authorise you to board and pay on the train.

Good point, didn't think of that.

 

[Knoodlepot]

In that sort of case if I didn't have the cash to hand I'd probably film the machine failing repeatedly and the PtP being obtained. Though most people who have a smartphone on which they'd film a TVM failing would probably just purchase using said phone to start with.

If, for some reason, you can't do that, the best option is to use the help point and explain why you're unable to get a ticket. They'll likely take your name and address down, and authorise you to board and pay on the train.

Incidentally if you're arriving at a station without having yet bought a ticket this is one reason why it's important to leave yourself a few spare minutes, and also one of the best benefits of tap-on-tap-off pay as you go. Of course being able to buy in an app is almost as good.

As far as the OP is concerned if you've been issued with a Penalty Fare you probably need to pay, quickly.

With the company I work for if I have passengers saying the TVM is not working I will ask for proof like a photo with date it was taken. If they cannot show this to me I will then call someone in our company that can live check the TVMs and tell me if there is an issue.
We also get every hour an automated email telling us which machines are our of order.
This is not 100% as if the screen does not work and the touch screen is misaligned (Press on a letter and it registered you touched at another area) this cannot be reported by the machine as it thinks it is still working. When I find these I email the person in charge of TVMs and also an email to my Revenue colleagues that the machine is down for now (If no booking office and the TVM is the only way to purchase a ticket).

 

[lyndhurst25]

With the company I work for if I have passengers saying the TVM is not working I will ask for proof like a photo with date it was taken. If they cannot show this to me I will then call someone in our company that can live check the TVMs and tell me if there is an issue.
We also get every hour an automated email telling us which machines are our of order.
This is not 100% as if the screen does not work and the touch screen is misaligned (Press on a letter and it registered you touched at another area) this cannot be reported by the machine as it thinks it is still working. When I find these I email the person in charge of TVMs and also an email to my Revenue colleagues that the machine is down for now (If no booking office and the TVM is the only way to purchase a ticket).

Not sure that this method is 100% foolproof for a number of reasons. Obviously, not everyone has a smartphone to photograph or film the non-working TVM. Trying for a third time to buy a ticket, just for the purposes of filming or photographing it, isn’t going to go down well with the queue of people building up behind you, especially when the train is due! The card payment not going through could be a fault with the TVM, in which case the machine may report it. It could equally be a fault with the physical card, the communication network between the TVM and the card issuer, or the card issuer’s system, in which case the TVM may well think that all is well.

My solution is to always carry a reasonable amount of emergency cash, say £100, in case card payment systems throw a wobbly. Enough to buy a train ticket, tank of petrol, cheap hotel room, taxi fare home, bag of groceries, etc. (Maybe a prompt for a “how much emergency cash do you carry” poll?)

In the OP’s case, trying to settle a Promise to Pay using a card AND admitting to not having the cash to do so, has raised suspicions that they were attempting a “pay when challenged” scam.

 

[Deafdoggie]

My solution is to always carry a reasonable amount of emergency cash, say £100, in case card payment systems throw a wobbly. Enough to buy a train ticket, tank of petrol, cheap hotel room, taxi fare home, bag of groceries, etc. (Maybe a prompt for a “how much emergency cash do you carry” poll?)

Not everyone has that kind of spare cash. For many a spare tenner is a lot of money. Carrying £100 around "just in case" is only feasible if you can afford it.

However, you shouldn't need to carry any cash around to cover for the railways failings in letting you pay. If you need to carry a spare £100 I certainly wouldn't ever travel by train again.

 

[randyrippley]

"you must pay this in full by cash only or you will incur a penalty fare" - is printed on the ticket.

But does that appear on screen before purchase?

 

[skyhigh]

But does that appear on screen before purchase?

Yes.