"Fire and rehire"

[L+Y]

I've seen this discussed a little as the ultimate nuclear option that could be taken to end strike disputes.

How plausible is it, in reality, that the DfT or an operating company could go down this line? Has it been done before? And how dramatic would the impact be on services thereafter, assuming such a policy led to significant staff departure?

 

[zwk500]

It was how the Southern Guards dispute was ended.

 

[baz962]

It takes a while to train new recruits. I'm my case a driver , it's around a year. Add on the recruitment process including psychometric tests and medical and you are looking at not far off 18 months. But although some training is classroom with ops trainers, the majority is with driver instructors who are also just drivers on the roster and you would of sacked them too. So if you sacked a whole depot it would take around 18 months to get a small percentage passed out. It would take years.

 

[zwk500]

It takes a while to train new recruits. I'm my case a driver , it's around a year. Add on the recruitment process including psychometric tests and medical and you are looking at not far off 18 months. But although some training is classroom with ops trainers, the majority is with driver instructors who are also just drivers on the roster and you would of sacked them too. So if you sacked a whole depot it would take around 18 months to get a small percentage passed out. It would take years.

The point of fire and rehire is that you keep the same people on.
In the Southern case there was little short term impact as people needed the jobs and there was no point in walking away. Longer term I don't know if it led to a harder recruiting market or staff shortages that would have been preventable on the older ts and Cs.

 

[John Bishop]

It takes a while to train new recruits. I'm my case a driver , it's around a year. Add on the recruitment process including psychometric tests and medical and you are looking at not far off 18 months. But although some training is classroom with ops trainers, the majority is with driver instructors who are also just drivers on the roster and you would have sacked them too. So if you sacked a whole depot it would take around 18 months to get a small percentage passed out. It would take years.

Yes, but in your scenario, you’re making the assumption that all existing drivers who are sacked don’t re-apply for the position.
Of course, there will be a number who are close to retirement don’t bother, but the vast majority will, as they have no other choice.

 

[L+Y]

It was how the Southern Guards dispute was ended.

Which does answer my second question as to whether the practice is even legal!

I didn't follow the ins and outs of that dispute as it didn't really impact upon me as a passenger in Lancashire- what happened, and what was the impact upon staff goodwill and morale?n

 

[185]

With HM Government being the ultimate employer, this would likely result in the same large scale unrest as the 1980s miners strike.

The difference, would be the sheer scale of mass redundancies, and with the workplace not being down a well contained hole in the ground but instead geographically spread across every corner of the UK, the likelihood of mischief, preventing trains running, would be rather high.

It isn't quite a Kwik Save-esque supermarket and what works in those industries probably wouldn't work here.

 

[baz962]

Yes, but in your scenario, you’re making the assumption that all existing drivers who are sacked don’t re-apply for the position.
Of course, there will be a number who are close to retirement don’t bother, but the vast majority will, as they have no other choice.

Depends what you mean by no other choice. If the job has worse conditions and now the pay is not much better than HGV or something else they might just leave. Why would I want to set my alarm at 2am do nights and weekends and also not know what job I'm on off spare or wether my leave is granted until three days before if I can earn the same for no shift work.

 

[gazzaa2]

It takes a while to train new recruits. I'm my case a driver , it's around a year. Add on the recruitment process including psychometric tests and medical and you are looking at not far off 18 months. But although some training is classroom with ops trainers, the majority is with driver instructors who are also just drivers on the roster and you would of sacked them too. So if you sacked a whole depot it would take around 18 months to get a small percentage passed out. It would take years.

Some TOCs are already unusable due to a lack of staff.

 

[zwk500]

Which does answer my second question as to whether the practice is even legal!

I didn't follow the ins and outs of that dispute as it didn't really impact upon me as a passenger in Lancashire- what happened, and what was the impact upon staff goodwill and morale?n

Being legal or not is different to something having been done! But yes, it's perfectly legal as long as the notice periods and conditions on the contract are abided by.

The southern dispute basically ended when Aslef reached agreement to resolve the dispute and the guards were left with limited impact as many services there were DOO already. It had also been going on for ages. Southern gave notice on the contracts and offered new ones which the RMT recommended they sign or they'd be out of a job.
I don't know about morale and goodwill, nor do I know how it affected staffing levels more generally in GTR as I'd moved away just as the strikes ended.
The guards transitioned to OBSs and largely have continued to function from the passenger side in their revenue and customer service roles. I do know there have been instances of despatch issues where the OBS has been unable to assist when equipment failed because the competency was removed.

 

[Skie]

It takes a while to train new recruits. I'm my case a driver , it's around a year. Add on the recruitment process including psychometric tests and medical and you are looking at not far off 18 months. But although some training is classroom with ops trainers, the majority is with driver instructors who are also just drivers on the roster and you would of sacked them too. So if you sacked a whole depot it would take around 18 months to get a small percentage passed out. It would take years.

This is why there is so much suspicion around the RDG/Government "offer" on the pay deals. The changes to competency rules could allow them to skip a lot of that effort and claim people are competent much earlier and press them into revenue service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In 1981 Ronald Reagan (himself a former union leader) fired 11000-odd air traffic controllers for going on strike, and few of them worked in that job again.
Curiously, US government employees (which the ATC people were) were legally not allowed to strike when it affects public safety, and could not be re-employed in federal public service.
So the fire and rehire was legal in that case.
The air industry in the US didn't grind to a halt.

 

[Facing Back]

Being legal or not is different to something having been done! But yes, it's perfectly legal as long as the notice periods and conditions on the contract are abided by.

The southern dispute basically ended when Aslef reached agreement to resolve the dispute and the guards were left with limited impact as many services there were DOO already. It had also been going on for ages. Southern gave notice on the contracts and offered new ones which the RMT recommended they sign or they'd be out of a job.
I don't know about morale and goodwill, nor do I know how it affected staffing levels more generally in GTR as I'd moved away just as the strikes ended.
The guards transitioned to OBSs and largely have continued to function from the passenger side in their revenue and customer service roles. I do know there have been instances of despatch issues where the OBS has been unable to assist when equipment failed because the competency was removed.

I had thought the Southern OBS retained their length of service so technically it wasn't fire and rehire - the only real practical difference is that their employment rights were not subject to the 2 year "probation.

In 1981 Ronald Reagan (himself a former union leader) fired 11000-odd air traffic controllers for going on strike, and few of them worked in that job again.
Curiously, US government employees (which the ATC people were) were legally not allowed to strike when it affects public safety, and could not be re-employed in federal public service.
So the fire and rehire was legal in that case.
The air industry in the US didn't grind to a halt.

lol that was mainly "fire and not-rehire". Its taught in business school about the risks of pushing too far...

This is why there is so much suspicion around the RDG/Government "offer" on the pay deals. The changes to competency rules could allow them to skip a lot of that effort and claim people are competent much earlier and press them into revenue service.

Interesting slant. I haven't read that concern on this thread so far - its mainly around rostering so far...

Some TOCs are already unusable due to a lack of staff.

Well then, in that case there is limited additional risk to the TOC to implement fire and rehire. What are they waiting for?

 

[Evelynm]

In 1981 Ronald Reagan (himself a former union leader) fired 11000-odd air traffic controllers for going on strike, and few of them worked in that job again.
Curiously, US government employees (which the ATC people were) were legally not allowed to strike when it affects public safety, and could not be re-employed in federal public service.
So the fire and rehire was legal in that case.
The air industry in the US didn't grind to a halt.

How did that not have a long term effect on ATC in the USA though? Surely there were not 11000 fully trained staff waiting to take their place?

 

[zwk500]

I had thought the Southern OBS retained their length of service so technically it wasn't fire and rehire - the only real practical difference is that their employment rights were not subject to the 2 year "probation.

technical difference but same principle

Interesting slant. I haven't read that concern on this thread so far - its mainly around rostering so far...

it's definitely been raised before

 

[philosopher]

It takes a while to train new recruits. I'm my case a driver , it's around a year. Add on the recruitment process including psychometric tests and medical and you are looking at not far off 18 months. But although some training is classroom with ops trainers, the majority is with driver instructors who are also just drivers on the roster and you would of sacked them too. So if you sacked a whole depot it would take around 18 months to get a small percentage passed out. It would take years.

This I think could play into the government’s hands. If say 20% of drivers choose not to reapply after a fire and rehire and this leads to 20% of services having to be cut due to a lack of drivers, the government could say that we have no choice but to cut services by 20% due to a lack of drivers. In this way the government could use it as a cover to implement cuts to rail services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some TOCs are already unusable due to a lack of staff.

And lack of management/DfT being willing to honestly publish a viable timetable. There is a viable timetable for any staffing number, provided it is not zero.

I don't know about morale and goodwill, nor do I know how it affected staffing levels more generally in GTR as I'd moved away just as the strikes ended.

Morale doesn't look great, many of them just stand around fiddling with their phone.

The guards transitioned to OBSs and largely have continued to function from the passenger side in their revenue and customer service roles. I do know there have been instances of despatch issues where the OBS has been unable to assist when equipment failed because the competency was removed.

It was bizarre to remove that competency even if it was not normally used - Greater Anglia have maintained it.

 

[bramling]

And lack of management/DfT being willing to honestly publish a viable timetable. There is a viable timetable for any staffing number, provided it is not zero.



Morale doesn't look great, many of them just stand around fiddling with their phone.



It was bizarre to remove that competency even if it was not normally used - Greater Anglia have maintained it.

In my experience many of the OBS on Southern now fit into the “living dead” box, in other words they do the absolute minimum.

Whether this makes the whole thing a success or not I will leave for others to judge.

I don’t think fire & rehire would work for drivers. There’s too much risk of expertise being lost, and that could make the current erratic services in some areas look golden by comparison!

 

[baz962]

This I think could play into the government’s hands. If say 20% of drivers choose not to reapply after a fire and rehire and this leads to 20% of services having to be cut due to a lack of drivers, the government could say that we have no choice but to cut services by 20% due to a lack of drivers. In this way the government could use it as a cover to implement cuts to rail services.

The industry is already short. We have a few retiring and some leaving. Another few have applied elsewhere and if they go we will be nearly 25% under full complement.