Fire & Rehire for railway jobs, especially Train Drivers.

[tiptoptaff]

Yeah if your overinflated salary is being bankrolled by the taxpayer, at a time when the economy has shrunk 25%. It's clearly not sustainable.

I work in the private sector, my company simply cannot afford to pay wages like that, if they did many many good hard working people would be out of a job to afford it.
I don't think many rail employees appreciate how lucky they really are, they have total job security.

I think they will take a paycut, because drivers etc can't quite as there aren't many other jobs to go to, the ones that are available don't pay anywhere near as much as the rail industry pays.

What level is reasonable then? Because your post just smacks of bitterness and jealousy.

I don't give a hoot about other industries. Perhaps people should start looking at improving their own lot, rather than trying to tear down those of us with decent employment packages.

 

[cactustwirly]

What level is reasonable then? Because your post just smacks of bitterness and jealousy.

I don't give a hoot about other industries. Perhaps people should start looking at improving their own lot, rather than trying to tear down those of us with decent employment packages.

Definitely not £60k, that's the wage of a doctor, or a high level manager.
If the railway industry was self sustaining then I wouldn't care. But it isn't, it's sucking huge amounts of taxpayer money every single day. That won't last forever so tough decisions need to made for the greater good. So essential services such as the police and NHS can be properly funded.

I think rail employees need to get off their arrogant high horses and be very glad they have a job, and not one of the 3 million soon to be unemployed.

 

[trebor79]

Nope, but every driver in the country will. Good luck running any sort of service when every driver is on strike. Good luck replacing us, with all of us on strike, no one to train those who'd follow behind

Careful. All that sort of thing will do is accelerate autonomously driven trains. Really there's no fundamental reason it couldn't be done, just as there's no fundamental reason commercial airliners need to have 2 pilots sat in the front.

 

[trebor79]

Yeah if your overinflated salary is being bankrolled by the taxpayer, at a time when the economy has shrunk 25%. It's clearly not sustainable.

I work in the private sector, my company simply cannot afford to pay wages like that, if they did many many good hard working people would be out of a job to afford it.
I don't think many rail employees appreciate how lucky they really are, they have total job security.

I think they will take a paycut, because drivers etc can't quite as there aren't many other jobs to go to, the ones that are available don't pay anywhere near as much as the rail industry pays.

What level is reasonable then? Because your post just smacks of bitterness and jealousy.

Well, we could look at other safety critical(ish)*, relatively low skilled occupations as a guide for a starting point.
What about a bus drivers salary? Safety critical? Tick. Low skill? Tick. Arguably requires more effort than train driving, and not as cushty working conditions (physical and contractual).
That would be a good starting point, wouldn't it?

*Ish because things like TPWS and ATP and there to reduce or eliminate reliance upon the driver to be the safety assurance.

 

[the sniper]

Well, we could look at other safety critical(ish)*, relatively low skilled occupations as a guide for a starting point.
What about a bus drivers salary? Safety critical? Tick. Low skill? Tick. Arguably requires more effort than train driving, and not as cushty working conditions (physical and contractual).
That would be a good starting point, wouldn't it?

*Ish because things like TPWS and ATP and there to reduce or eliminate reliance upon the driver to be the safety assurance.

Oh well, the experts have spoken now... Might as well lock the thread.

I wonder why it only takes a couple of weeks to train a bus driver, but many months to train a train driver or pilot? They're all the same really.

 

[Fred Dinenage]

@cactustwirly and @trebor79, are you 2 luminaries willing to divulge your occupations and salaries? I’m curious as to why you’re against railway staff, and, seemingly, drivers in particular. Showing your occupational credentials and renumeration might explain your position, i.e. fitness to judge what is and isn’t a reasonable driver’s salary. Or, as has been suggested, if it’s down to jealousy. Or failure to make the grade.

Just wondering

 

[DB]

Why do any comments on drivers' pay always end up with these sort of arguments? I have no particular views on the matter, but it can't be denied that they are well-paid by the national standard, and this has come about largely because of competition between TOCs (cheaper to poach than to train - under BR they weren't paid anywhere near as much). I can therefore see why some people may think this is unjustified (and I stress I have no particular views on the matter either way). Can you not just agree to disagree without seemingly always resorting to accusations of 'jealousy' and 'failed to make the grade'?

 

[choochoochoo]

Careful. All that sort of thing will do is accelerate autonomously driven trains. Really there's no fundamental reason it couldn't be done, just as there's no fundamental reason commercial airliners need to have 2 pilots sat in the front.

You need 2 pilots because automation cannot cover all eventualities. I'd like to have seen an A320 and land itself on the Hudson.

 

[choochoochoo]

Definitely not £60k, that's the wage of a doctor, or a high level manager.
If the railway industry was self sustaining then I wouldn't care. But it isn't, it's sucking huge amounts of taxpayer money every single day. That won't last forever so tough decisions need to made for the greater good. So essential services such as the police and NHS can be properly funded.

I think rail employees need to get off their arrogant high horses and be very glad they have a job, and not one of the 3 million soon to be unemployed.

I'm very glad for my job.

I'd also consider the railway an essential service. How else will you transport people en-masse? Not just commuters, but leisure travellers too ?

 

[trebor79]

@cactustwirly and @trebor79, are you 2 luminaries willing to divulge your occupations and salaries? I’m curious as to why you’re against railway staff, and, seemingly, drivers in particular. Showing your occupational credentials and renumeration might explain your position, i.e. fitness to judge what is and isn’t a reasonable driver’s salary. Or, as has been suggested, if it’s down to jealousy. Or failure to make the grade.

Just wondering

Not that it's any of your business, but I earn more than a train driver. I've never applied to be a professional train driver. So I'm not jealous at all.
I am not against railway staff, I think they do a good job on the whole.
I just caution against people in glasshouses throwing stones. Particularly given the economic backdrop that will prevail. If I was a train driver I'd be keeping my head below the parapet.

 

[6Gman]

Yeah if your overinflated salary is being bankrolled by the taxpayer, at a time when the economy has shrunk 25%. It's clearly not sustainable.

I work in the private sector, my company simply cannot afford to pay wages like that, if they did many many good hard working people would be out of a job to afford it.
I don't think many rail employees appreciate how lucky they really are, they have total job security.

I think they will take a paycut, because drivers etc can't quite as there aren't many other jobs to go to, the ones that are available don't pay anywhere near as much as the rail industry pays.

No they don't.

 

[trebor79]

Oh well, the experts have spoken now... Might as well lock the thread.

I wonder why it only takes a couple of weeks to train a bus driver, but many months to train a train driver or pilot? They're all the same really.

Largely because there's more rules around flying and train driving, and you can't just pull over to have a think and remind yourself. And in the air at least, there aren't lots of signposts. They also have a specific vernacular when it comes to communications.
I'm not a train driver, but I do hold a pilots licence so know what I'm talking about. Flying a plane is actually pretty easy. Remembering procedures, rules around this and that airspace, whether you have to ask for a specific clearance under specific circumstances etc takes time to assimilate.

 

[6Gman]

Why do any comments on drivers' pay always end up with these sort of arguments? I have no particular views on the matter, but it can't be denied that they are well-paid by the national standard, and this has come about largely because of competition between TOCs (cheaper to poach than to train - under BR they weren't paid anywhere near as much). I can therefore see why some people may think this is unjustified (and I stress I have no particular views on the matter either way). Can you not just agree to disagree without seemingly always resorting to accusations of 'jealousy' and 'failed to make the grade'?

Nail hit on head. Pay scales have risen, basically, because the TOCs find poaching cheaper than training. Market forces.

 

[choochoochoo]

Not that it's any of your business, but I earn more than a train driver. I've never applied to be a professional train driver. So I'm not jealous at all.
I am not against railway staff, I think they do a good job on the whole.
I just caution against people in glasshouses throwing stones. Particularly given the economic backdrop that will prevail. If I was a train driver I'd be keeping my head below the parapet.

Yet you won't say what it is you do ? Scared we may belittle your profession ?

 

[choochoochoo]

Largely because there's more rules around flying and train driving, and you can't just pull over to have a think and remind yourself. And in the air at least, there aren't lots of signposts. They also have a specific vernacular when it comes to communications.
I'm not a train driver, but I do hold a pilots licence so know what I'm talking about. Flying a plane is actually pretty easy. Remembering procedures, rules around this and that airspace, whether you have to ask for a specific clearance under specific circumstances etc takes time to assimilate.

Airline Pilots have it easy. All those clearances are worked out before they've even signed on. They just put the flight plan details in the Flight Management Computer and off they go. Sometimes they don't even have to do that. It's automatically loaded and then they only have to check it is correct.

Leisure pilots are the poor bastards who have to remember all those rules.

Think both pilots and train drivers earn their corn when things go wrong.

 

[MissPWay]

Well, we could look at other safety critical(ish)*, relatively low skilled occupations as a guide for a starting point.
What about a bus drivers salary? Safety critical? Tick. Low skill? Tick. Arguably requires more effort than train driving, and not as cushty working conditions (physical and contractual).
That would be a good starting point, wouldn't it?

*Ish because things like TPWS and ATP and there to reduce or eliminate reliance upon the driver to be the safety assurance.

“Low Skilled....”

This is usually spouted off by enthusiasts/tabloid journalists who haven’t got the slightest idea what the role actually involves.

Just because you can play train-sim doesn’t mean it’s like that in real life.


When a bus driver can get 500 people on a 500 ton bus and drive them 200+ miles at 125mph in the dark and fog on a skid pan without seeing where they’re going, hit all their speeds perfectly and stop within. +\- 1m of a target then we’ll compare the two.

 

[ComUtoR]

With British Airways and British Gas proposing to fire and rehire many of their employees on inferior contracts

Fire and rehire is complicated. I'm not sure it would actually be possible for the Railway.

However..

If you were offered a fire and rehire with inferior t & c, inferior salary (e.g. a 30% salary cut) and pension changes would you accept it or walk away?

Probably accept it. I know how much I'd get from the redundancy payment and although, not great tbh, I'd be prepared to take the cash and know that I'd still be in a job next week. 30% is a hard hit but not unreasonable to recover from. I suspect that there would be higher than usual salary increases over the following years.

 

[ComUtoR]

Definitely not £60k, that's the wage of a doctor, or a high level manager.

Are Drivers paid to much or Doctors paid to little ?

Bring people up, not beat them down.

 

[irish_rail]

Are Drivers paid to much or Doctors paid to little ?

Bring people up, not beat them down.

I'm pretty sure doctors earn more than 60k now .

 

[whoosh]

Wow, the irony of saying that railways are subsidised by the government, but having just mentioned doctors who are... ooh, subsidised by the government.

By the way, Doctors wages are only so high because dentists earn so much and just tear out the page about teeth from the medical textbook when they dropout of medical school.

 

[trebor79]

Not that it's any of your business, but I earn more than a train driver. I've never applied to be a professional train driver. So I'm not jealous at all.
I am not against railway staff, I think they do a good job on the whole.
I just caution against people in glasshouses throwing stones. Particularly given the economic backdrop that will prevail. If I was a train driver I'd be keeping my head below the parapet.

Yet you won't say what it is you do ? Scared we may belittle your profession ?

Crikey, a tad defensive aren't we?
I work in the renewable energy sector. Belittle all you like, it won't make a difference to me.
It doesn't really matter what I do or how much I'm paid. The point is train drivers are well rewarded for what they do. I'm not speaking out of "jealousy" as was accused, merely observing that they might not get much public sympathy over the next few years if they start striking to defend their pay.

 

[trebor79]

Airline Pilots have it easy. All those clearances are worked out before they've even signed on. They just put the flight plan details in the Flight Management Computer and off they go. Sometimes they don't even have to do that. It's automatically loaded and then they only have to check it is correct.

That's a bit of an oversimplification, but it's true they don't do a lot.

Leisure pilots are the poor bastards who have to remember all those rules.

Indeed. When I take my airline pilot friend flying he is bewildered a lot of the time. He once commented "I have no idea how you can do single pilot ops, do all the coms, navigate and fly the plane". He did it in his initial training of course but skills atrophy when they aren't used.

 

[Mattydo]

That's a bit of an oversimplification, but it's true they don't do a lot.

It’s a lot of an oversimplification and I’m shocked you don’t think they do a lot with a friend in the industry and experience with, I assume, a PPL.

It’s fair to say the job day to day is fairly repetitive and even mundane (although I’ve made my fair share of manually flown NDB approaches in the dark to some obscure fields in India to fend off the boredom), but the required information retention and the necessity to prove your ability, every 6 months, to handle all manner of emergencies, including reverting to single pilot ops in an aircraft where the ergonomics alone are designed for two, before taking into account that the speed at which events unfold is far greater than in a C172, means that any atrophy of skills would quickly lead to a trip in to see the training manager for recovery training.

There are I believe huge similarities with train driving in that instance. Information retention, scrutiny, the need to maintain the ability to deal with the unknown and ultimately, the reason both roles are remunerated so well, the knowledge that a mistake (caused by a lapse in concentration or lack of knowledge) can lead to the deaths of hundreds of people.

I do accept your point that sympathy may be lacking but I’d rather we argued for a lifting of conditions across the board rather than a decline. Surely if Covid taught us anything it is the pitfalls of undervaluing skills needs. I’d see a nurse on greater pay before reducing someone else’s. The money to do so exists but the people controlling that money are unwilling to let governments get at it.

 

[cactustwirly]

Bring people up, not beat them down.

Which public service would you sacrifice to afford that?

 

[Val3ntine]

Crikey, a tad defensive aren't we?
I work in the renewable energy sector. Belittle all you like, it won't make a difference to me.
It doesn't really matter what I do or how much I'm paid. The point is train drivers are well rewarded for what they do. I'm not speaking out of "jealousy" as was accused, merely observing that they might not get much public sympathy over the next few years if they start striking to defend their pay.

Belittle all you like, it won't make a difference to me.

Yet you’re doing the exact same thing to train drivers? But guess what likewise it’s not making a difference to them neither.

It doesn't really matter what I do or how much I'm paid.

Again, likewise to train drivers, doesn’t matter does it. Except it reaalllyyyyy matters to you like wow look at the passion. No one really cares what you do, if you said you earnt 100k+ I’m sure most would say wow great job, well done, good on you, not give you the third degree about your job like you are doing to train drivers. Do you know why? Because train drivers are happy and content with what they have and wish the best on all others. Clearly that is not your mentality and you reek of jealousy. You say you have a great well paying job and are happy with your working conditions and not jealous of train drivers at all, but mate your actions really are saying different regardless of what you say and you are coming across as a bit of a joke. Take what you will of this honesty.

 

[SlimJim1694]

Being wary not to feed the trolls, and going back to the original post...

I don't think there is any danger of this happening all the while there is any involvement of the private sector in the industry, because it wouldn't be long before the market forces that led to drivers wage increases in the first place came back into play and wages started to go up again. If it was fully renationalised then I can see it being attempted for sure, but otherwise no.

One of the biggest challenges around any possible future renationalisation would surely be harmonizing pay and conditions across the country. There are TOCs now that were formed of previous TOCs where they haven't been able to harmonise after years. It would need full renationalisation and harmonisation in order to be a success - otherwise people would still leave for the better paid TOCs and the others would have to try to keep up - as has happened since the 90s - leading to the drivers wages you see today.

The next issue is how do you harmonise grades within the industry? Speaking for drivers (but it could be applied to any grade) you have some TOCs offering over £70k basic while others are still paying in the high £40k bracket. Meal breaks, rostering, sundays, DOO, duty length etc all vary between TOCs so you've got to factor that in too. There is huge disparity within the railway industry among people who do the same job. You could cut £20k from some drivers wages today and they'd still be earning more than drivers at other TOCs.

I wouldnt be against harmonisation of the grade nationally, but the only way it's going to happen is with full renationalisation. Whether or not it's a race to the bottom, a race to the top, or a meeting in the middle (and how the hell it would be implemented) would remain to be seen.

If it was nationalised then you would have to think of ways to keep drivers working at depots where the work is absolute rubbish. In BR days the metro depots at my TOC were very different to what they are now. If a driver stays with one intensive TOC because he's a prisoner to his higher wages, or his safety record holds him back, he'd no longer have any reason to stay so they'd need to look at other ways of balancing staffing (eg: completely changing the work content at some places).

There would be countless other things to consider too.

It's easy to spout the same tired, jealous rhetoric about drivers wages and unions, its easy to ignore the fact that this narrative is overly simple... but it's not helpful, it lacks originality or serious thought, and doesn't actually achieve anything unless you are going to offer workable solutions to address the massive disparities within the privatised rail industry.

Would I be prepared to accept it? Not without a fight. Would you let someone come round your house and take your stuff without a fight? No, of course you wouldn't... Or maybe you would? But I wouldn't.

 

[cactustwirly]

Yet you’re doing the exact same thing to train drivers? But guess what likewise it’s not making a difference to them neither.



Again, likewise to train drivers, doesn’t matter does it. Except it reaalllyyyyy matters to you like wow look at the passion. No one really cares what you do, if you said you earnt 100k+ I’m sure most would say wow great job, well done, good on you, not give you the third degree about your job like you are doing to train drivers. Do you know why? Because train drivers are happy and content with what they have and wish the best on all others. Clearly that is not your mentality and you reek of jealousy. You say you have a great well paying job and are happy with your working conditions and not jealous of train drivers at all, but mate your actions really are saying different regardless of what you say and you are coming across as a bit of a joke. Take what you will of this honesty.

It does matter because your pay is being subsidised by my tax, therefore your pay should be publicly accountable.
If your ToC doesn't receive any taxpayer subsidy then it would be fine.
But we all know that they're all carrying fresh air atm so the treasury is pilling loads of cash in.

 

[Val3ntine]

It does matter because your pay is being subsidised by my tax, therefore your pay should be publicly accountable.
If your ToC doesn't receive any taxpayer subsidy then it would be fine.
But we all know that they're all carrying fresh air atm so the treasury is pilling loads of cash in.

But is this not a temporary solution to the current climate? As far as I knew my employer wasn’t a government body but a private transport company, I work for a private company providing a public service. Forgive me if I’m wrong on that.
Even with this talk of nationalisation going round I’m led to believe the proposal which I don’t even think has actually been made official yet, is a concession based arrangement which still will be provided by private companies who will continue to be responsible for paying staff wages, the government (your tax) will be managing the performance and productivity. Not driver’s salary.

 

[trebor79]

Yet you’re doing the exact same thing to train drivers? But guess what likewise it’s not making a difference to them neither.



Again, likewise to train drivers, doesn’t matter does it. Except it reaalllyyyyy matters to you like wow look at the passion. No one really cares what you do, if you said you earnt 100k+ I’m sure most would say wow great job, well done, good on you, not give you the third degree about your job like you are doing to train drivers. Do you know why? Because train drivers are happy and content with what they have and wish the best on all others. Clearly that is not your mentality and you reek of jealousy. You say you have a great well paying job and are happy with your working conditions and not jealous of train drivers at all, but mate your actions really are saying different regardless of what you say and you are coming across as a bit of a joke. Take what you will of this honesty.

Oh dear.
If you actually bother to read the thread, I was challenged by another person whose nerve has been touched to disclose my salary and occupation to prove I'm not just jealous. Whilst I'm not going to do that, I'm happy enough to state the sector I work in and that train driving would not earn me as much.
I don't think I've belittled anyone. I haven't said train driving isn't a valid career, or isn't useful, or doesn't require specific skills. I've merely suggested that train drivers are well paid compared to similar roles in related industries and that therefore they ought to think carefully before raising the idea of strikes etc in the midst of the worst recession for 300 years as they might not get much sympathy from the public, government or their employers.

If that touches a nerve then perhaps that's because it's rather closer to the truth than you care to admit to yourself.

I won't comment further on this as it's clear it's a very emotive subject for some and I've said everything I have to say.
Best of luck to everyone in these times.

Trebor79 out.

 

[irish_rail]

Oh dear.
If you actually bother to read the thread, I was challenged by another person whose nerve has been touched to disclose my salary and occupation to prove I'm not just jealous. Whilst I'm not going to do that, I'm happy enough to state the sector I work in and that train driving would not earn me as much.
I don't think I've belittled anyone. I haven't said train driving isn't a valid career, or isn't useful, or doesn't require specific skills. I've merely suggested that train drivers are well paid compared to similar roles in related industries and that therefore they ought to think carefully before raising the idea of strikes etc in the midst of the worst recession for 300 years as they might not get much sympathy from the public, government or their employers.

If that touches a nerve then perhaps that's because it's rather closer to the truth than you care to admit to yourself.

I won't comment further on this as it's clear it's a very emotive subject for some and I've said everything I have to say.
Best of luck to everyone in these times.

Trebor79 out.

The most similar role to train driver nowadays is airline pilot. There are a lot of parallels (perhaps not 20 years ago) but now with the technology involved and enhanced level of professionalism. Pilots I believe earn anything from 50k to 100k ish therefore I would say train drivers on 60k fare pretty reasonably and appropriately for what we do. The problem in this country is that nurses and carers are underpaid , not that anyone else is overpaid.