First Eastern Counties

[buslad1988]

Disagree, why should we be stuck with London cast off's? The current lot of London cast off's were pretty tatty and knackered when they first arrived and looked old when they first arrived in Norwich. It puts people off.

That’s true and I agree with you. I just can’t see First (and especially in the current climate) being able to invest that amount in brand new buses. A mid life refurbished vehicle would be better than nothing. There’ll always be some quieter routes which don’t necessarily require or deserve brand new stock.

Didn’t they re-trim some of the Tridents/Volvo’s in leather in last few years too?

I don’t think even low height enviro 400’s (like stagecoach have) would fit into Ipswich garage. If I remember correctly at the time of ordering the 53 plate Volvo B7TL’s the extra low height version was specifically designed for FEC. Even the W-DWX versions are too tall for Ipswich.

 

[buslad1988]

Just heard rumours (although pretty much confirmed) that Ipswich Buses have purchased a number of ex Trent Barton Optare Tempo SR’s (displaced from service i4) to withdraw the oldest single decks and omnicity’s... maybe the kick up the backside First needs to start updating their fleet in the town too.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Just heard rumours (although pretty much confirmed) that Ipswich Buses have purchased a number of ex Trent Barton Optare Tempo SR’s (displaced from service i4) to withdraw the oldest single decks and omnicity’s... maybe the kick up the backside First needs to start updating their fleet in the town too.

Did they actually pay for these vehicles themselves, or did they get a grant from the cash strapped council like they did with the Scania Omnicity double deckers?

Very easy to acquire vehicles when someone else is paying for them.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Just heard rumours (although pretty much confirmed) that Ipswich Buses have purchased a number of ex Trent Barton Optare Tempo SR’s (displaced from service i4) to withdraw the oldest single decks and omnicity’s... maybe the kick up the backside First needs to start updating their fleet in the town too.

Slightly off-topic, but why on earth would IB be looking to replace the Omnicity single deckers when they've got a bunch of 53-plate Darts which are in far worse condition (the usual SPD rear end sag is affecting the ex-Lothian stock) and Optare Excels still in service?

 

[buslad1988]

Slightly off-topic, but why on earth would IB be looking to replace the Omnicity single deckers when they've got a bunch of 53-plate Darts which are in far worse condition (the usual SPD rear end sag is affecting the ex-Lothian stock) and Optare Excels still in service?

I’m led to believe they’ve purchased enough stock to see the withdrawal of the ex Lothians, myllennium darts and omnicity’s. I make that about 10-12 they have purchased. All the optare excel 2’s are now withdrawn (except one for training).

Did they actually pay for these vehicles themselves, or did they get a grant from the cash strapped council like they did with the Scania Omnicity double deckers?

Very easy to acquire vehicles when someone else is paying for them.

That’s very true - totally agree the whole set up stinks! Loans given left, right and centre from the council. I guess they’ve said austerity is over! Still no sign of last years accounts being released yet either.

 

[Mwanesh]

Disagree, why should we be stuck with London cast off's? The current lot of London cast off's were pretty tatty and knackered when they first arrived and looked old when they first arrived in Norwich. It puts people off.

The cascades would be refurbished.If Lothian can buy London stock nothing wrong with it .The days of First buying stock for marginal ops are long gone.They should have a central workshop where they can do proper refurbishment.Stagecoach have Chesterfield if a vehicle comes in tatty by the time it goes out it will be as good as new

 

[Robertj21a]

Just heard rumours (although pretty much confirmed) that Ipswich Buses have purchased a number of ex Trent Barton Optare Tempo SR’s (displaced from service i4) to withdraw the oldest single decks and omnicity’s... maybe the kick up the backside First needs to start updating their fleet in the town too.

I hope they've thought hard as to why TrentBarton would have wanted to get rid of such relatively new buses !

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The cascades would be refurbished.If Lothian can buy London stock nothing wrong with it .The days of First buying stock for marginal ops are long gone.They should have a central workshop where they can do proper refurbishment.Stagecoach have Chesterfield if a vehicle comes in tatty by the time it goes out it will be as good as new

They had Rotherham but just cost too much.

Even buying secondhand is not cheap especially having to undo all the London spec. Like the other groups, they decided that it’s better to steer clear.

 

[paulprentice]

It seems pretty fashionable to give IB a kicking given their public sector status, but from the passenger's point of view, at least they're trying to invest and improve (I admit IB are probably a shade of once they once were, but that's a sign of the times). Getting those ex-London double deck Scanias was a good move and improved the look of the fleet no end, and the Tempo SRs will do the same for the single deck fleet even if they are seven years old. Good for them.

 

[F Great Eastern]

It seems pretty fashionable to give IB a kicking given their public sector status, but from the passenger's point of view, at least they're trying to invest and improve (I admit IB are probably a shade of once they once were, but that's a sign of the times). Getting those ex-London double deck Scanias was a good move and improved the look of the fleet no end, and the Tempo SRs will do the same for the single deck fleet even if they are seven years old. Good for them.

But Ipswich Buses themselves have not been investing, they've been getting loans from Ipswich Borough Council to pay for new vehicles rather than using their own cash from the bus company itself. It's easy to bring new vehicles in when someone else is paying for them, First don't have that luxury.

I'm not trying to kick them from being in the public sector, that makes no difference to me at all, I'm just not very happy that Ipswich Borough Council is screwing other services over with cuts left right and centre whilst loaning money to a bus company who then claims they are investing money where in reality it's taxpayer money that has been diverted by cuts in other public services.

 

[Cesarcollie]

But Ipswich Buses themselves have not been investing, they've been getting loans from Ipswich Borough Council to pay for new vehicles rather than using their own cash from the bus company itself. It's easy to bring new vehicles in when someone else is paying for them, First don't have that luxury.

I'm not trying to kick them from being in the public sector, that makes no difference to me at all, I'm just not very happy that Ipswich Borough Council is screwing other services over with cuts left right and centre whilst loaning money to a bus company who then claims they are investing money where in reality it's taxpayer money that has been diverted by cuts in other public services.

The 1985 Transport Act is very clear that municipal companies must operate at ‘arms length’. That means any transactions with their owning local authority must be both transparent, and on commercial terms. Thus whilst the Council can lend money to IB to buy buses (and please note I have no idea whether they are doing so or not), any such loan would have to be on a normal commercial basis with interest charged at market rate, etc. So the taxpayer in theory is no worse off - they are earning interest on cash which would presumably otherwise sit in a deposit account and earn far less. Naturally there is a ‘risk’ - that being that IB defaults on the loan or goes bust. However, as owners they are probably able to take a more informed view on that scenario than most other lenders.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The 1985 Transport Act is very clear that municipal companies must operate at ‘arms length’. That means any transactions with their owning local authority must be both transparent, and on commercial terms. Thus whilst the Council can lend money to IB to buy buses (and please note I have no idea whether they are doing so or not), any such loan would have to be on a normal commercial basis with interest charged at market rate, etc. So the taxpayer in theory is no worse off - they are earning interest on cash which would presumably otherwise sit in a deposit account and earn far less. Naturally there is a ‘risk’ - that being that IB defaults on the loan or goes bust. However, as owners they are probably able to take a more informed view on that scenario than most other lenders.

The taxpayer is worse off if the council is cutting a budget of another department that results in worse public services to free up money to loan to the bus company. I'm not saying that it happened that way though, merely suggesting it's possible.

 

[Cesarcollie]

The taxpayer is worse off if the council is cutting a budget of another department that results in worse public services to free up money to loan to the bus company. I'm not saying that it happened that way though, merely suggesting it's possible.

I don’t know the facts, but most councils have reserves of many millions (for a variety of reasons), and it is unlikely that a loan for 10-15 secondhand buses (if indeed that has happened) would amount to much more than petty cash out of any such reserves. As long as a market interest rate is paid, the rules have not been broken, and there is unlikely to be any impact on the Borough Council’s provision of services elsewhere

 

[Mwanesh]

I dont see what the fuss is about.IB can be bailed by the council it makes sense.No one talks about Reading Buses being bailed by the council many times.Reason Reading Buses is everyones favourite operator IB is not held in the same breath.First EC can put a business case to HQ for new buses if it pays they will get them if not cascades.

 

[Man of Kent]

Rather like Cardiff Bus, Ipswich Buses' accounts are overdue at Companies House. However, the council's accounts are on line and state that IB made a loss of £262,000 in the last financial year; also that IB owes the council £1.372m in outstanding loans. If 'public aid' rules apply, then presumably other bus companies in the area, including First, could ask for loans on the same terms.

 

[paulprentice]

I’m not arguing that there isn’t a considerable public debt owed by IB, but surely one of the benefits of being wholly-owned by the council is that they can help them out with investment in new stock. Why not? It's their asset. It is a clear benefit of public ownership. And yes, the investment comes from Ipswich council taxpayers (who are ultimately benefiting), but it's not as if these buses, when they do turn up are gold-plated. Buying 10-12 second-hand saloons, albeit refurbished, isn't the same as 7-10 brand new buses every year in the way that IB did in the 1980s and the first decade of the 2000s. Or going even further back, dozens of Leyland Atlanteans in the 1970s and early 1980s!

And, if they can't be bothered to up their game, First, who are massive and should get their house in order and invest, or sell up if they want to compete. I get the feeling local managers are more than up for the challenge but are not given the autonomy to invest.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I’m not arguing that there isn’t a considerable public debt owed by IB, but surely one of the benefits of being wholly-owned by the council is that they can help them out with investment in new stock. Why not? It's their asset. It is a clear benefit of public ownership. And yes, the investment comes from Ipswich council taxpayers (who are ultimately benefiting), but it's not as if these buses, when they do turn up are gold-plated. Buying 10-12 second-hand saloons, albeit refurbished, isn't the same as 7-10 brand new buses every year in the way that IB did in the 1980s and the first decade of the 2000s. Or going even further back, dozens of Leyland Atlanteans in the 1970s and early 1980s!

And, if they can't be bothered to up their game, First, who are massive and should get their house in order and invest, or sell up if they want to compete. I get the feeling local managers are more than up for the challenge but are not given the autonomy to invest.

To be fair, the 1970's and into the early 1980's were in the days of the bus grant where operators essentially only paid half price!

As for First managers not having the autonomy to invest - well, they won't in respect of new vehicles but that's the same in most businesses. Fair to say that the First Ipswich fleet is rather mature.

 

[Mwanesh]

Local managers put a business case to HQ if its worth it they will buy buses.You should know that the whole UK bus has bids which are then assessed on merit.Bristol and Leeds are the groups golden child they get all the investment.IB will put a case to the council for a loan which can be guven or granted

 

[paulprentice]

Indeed, agree with previous two posters. There is a case to be made for public investment in new or newer buses just as there is a private one. And First could help themselves out with a bit of spending on things like the Ipswich depot roof which might be a short term expense but have a long term gain in quality cascaded vehicles...

 

[MrTurbostar170]

The service changes for when Konect abandon the 88 have been announced https://www.firstgroup.com/norfolk-...s-network-norwich-coastal-clipper-99-services

Bungay - Poringland - Norwich City Centre
We're making some minor changes to the times of buses across the day on all Charcoal Line services. We're also adding some evening journeys into the city and home again that are funded by Norfolk County Council.

The new timetable will also include Sunday and Public Holidays services on the Charcoal Line that will be operated on behalf of Norfolk County Council by Konectbus.

Lowestoft - Kessingland - Southwold

As a result of the withdrawl of Konectbus service 88, we are working with Suffolk County Council to provide a number of journeys extended beyond Southwold to Halesworth and onto Bungay (for connections to Charcoal Line 41|X41 buses) on Mondays to Saturdays.

These new journeys will be numbered 99A (except for one schoolday journey in each direction numbered 99H), and will provide connections at Southwold to & from Lowestoft with no change of bus required. The route taken will be:

Southwold (Kings Head) - Reydon (The Drive) - Blythburgh A12 bus stops - Wenhaston - Blyford - Holton - Halesworth - Ilketshall - Bungay

The route will also include the Durban Close, Dukes Drive areas of Halesworth, providing an approximately hourly service between here and Halesworth town centre & rail station.

As a result of the introduction of these journeys, some buses will no longer serve Southwold Pier.

Some of the connections at Bungay for changing between the Charcoal Line and the 99A aren't great, some of them being a 20 minute wait and one journey being a whole hour. It would have been good if they had the Charcoal line going to Bungay and then the separate service to Southwold.

 

[buslad1988]

Yes certainly does seem a bit messy although I guess it’s a token gesture from them to plug the gap.

Agreed would probably have worked better concentrating the Bungay to Southwold section within the ‘charcoal line’ with more emphasis on the Norwich end. Must be for operational reasons they’ve tagged that part onto the 99 out of Lowestoft.

Atleast First have gotten in there and worked with the local authorities - and reference KonectBus gaining the Sunday contract.

 

[buslad1988]

Just heard rumours (although pretty much confirmed) that Ipswich Buses have purchased a number of ex Trent Barton Optare Tempo SR’s (displaced from service i4) to withdraw the oldest single decks and omnicity’s... maybe the kick up the backside First needs to start updating their fleet in the town too.

Now confirmed the thirteen Optare Tempo SR’s for Ipswich Buses are currently being delivered. They’ve had repaints but no internal refurb. Now for sale are Dart SPD’s, Omnicity’s and AN 9.

More info here: http://eastnorfolkbus.blogspot.com/2019/04/ipswich-buses-increasing-tempo.html?m=1

Meanwhile managers at FEC are hinting that the Ipswich based fleet will be repainted this year but there are currently no plans for incoming cascades - disappointing. Hopefully they won’t be keeping the drab charcoal livery and use these repaints as an opportunity for a fresh revived Eastern Counties scheme.

 

[paulprentice]

Now confirmed the thirteen Optare Tempo SR’s for Ipswich Buses are currently being delivered. They’ve had repaints but no internal refurb. Now for sale are Dart SPD’s, Omnicity’s and AN 9.

More info here: http://eastnorfolkbus.blogspot.com/2019/04/ipswich-buses-increasing-tempo.html?m=1

Meanwhile managers at FEC are hinting that the Ipswich based fleet will be repainted this year but there are currently no plans for incoming cascades - disappointing. Hopefully they won’t be keeping the drab charcoal livery and use these repaints as an opportunity for a fresh revived Eastern Counties scheme.

Hear, hear. You'd hope that management are thinking creatively about what they can do to brighten up the fleet.

 

[EnviroExplorer]

Hear, hear. You'd hope that management are thinking creatively about what they can do to brighten up the fleet.

I agree too! Other subsidiaries have shown recently that you don’t need new vehicles to have a much smarter fleet externally - Worcester, Weston SM, Slough and South Wales all being good examples. None of those are big profit makers, as per most recent statistics (Weston being an exception as part of the success at First WoE) but have at least made an effort with their appearance. I hope Ipswich can do the same, they really could do with some newer cascades though!

 

[chubs]

Norwich started repainting the fleet about 5 years ago and are still nowhere near complete, don't hold your breath!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Norwich started repainting the fleet about 5 years ago and are still nowhere near complete, don't hold your breath!

Think FEC held off repainting various deckers as they were anticipating them going by now.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Norwich started repainting the fleet about 5 years ago and are still nowhere near complete, don't hold your breath!

That being said there's only seven buses left in Barbie livery in Norwich, five Tridents and two B7Ls, all of which are on borrowed time. B7Ls are likely to become driver trainers.

 

[chubs]

That being said there's only seven buses left in Barbie livery in Norwich, five Tridents and two B7Ls, all of which are on borrowed time. B7Ls are likely to become driver trainers.

Is it really only 7? If so that's impressive, the painting / vinyling seemed to stall for ages.

 

[MrGriff500]

That being said there's only seven buses left in Barbie livery in Norwich, five Tridents and two B7Ls, all of which are on borrowed time. B7Ls are likely to become driver trainers.

I’ve heard plans that a Great Yarmouth B7 is to be Norwich’s Driver Trainer. The old euro 2 Trident 32809 (with the nicer variation of the Barbie livery) was a part time trainer at Norwich, but much to my sadness it’s engine failed. We had B7TL 30913 for a brief moment, then off to lowestoft it went. Still waiting on another double decker trainer.

Single side, we’ve got two B10 renowns still.

Sad thing is, with 32809 gone, Norwich has next to no fun buses for the enthusiasts. We’ve a single ex Manchester ALX400 B7TL (no. 30947, monster but its our only alx400) a couple of monster president b7s, such as 32201 and 32107 and some awesome Tridents like 33237, 33055 and 33245.

The Barbie livery units aren’t a major issue. Besides, some units need to have the plain first liveries so they can be transferred if needed. Three of them are 33245/6/7, they are pretty safe for now, and should be here for a bit longer or repainted in the urban livery soon. The 51 Presidents will probs be sorted first.

Yarmouth really has been the area of choice for enthusiasts. The ALX400 B7TL fleet is lovely, especially the 51 reg former Manchester units. But some units, especially 32062 (W422SRP) have really gotten old, and suffer badly.

Norwich often loans vehicles to them, and so do Ipswich.

Last thing, FEC really loves to show their heritage. The current stage is the following. There’s several in the normal Eastern Counties livery. The Dart SLF unit is still around, possibly Ipswich based at the moment. Ipswich also still have the Eastern Counties livery ALX400, Yarmouth has a beautiful ALX400 in the Great Yarmouth Transport livery, lovely unit. Lowestoft also has an ALX400, in the Lowestoft Corporation livery numbered 30888, and Norwich now have 2 B7L’s and a B7RLE. I know they are 60915, 60916 and 66985. The latter has the same livery as 60916. I think there was speculation that a president was to be repainted heritage but it was dropped. I know Norwich’s heritage B7L’s will survive the onslaught of the B7’s. I imagine all heritage units will survive. Even though the Ipswich ALX400 is really gutless and slow. One more I call heritage is Yarmouth’s open top Trident. It’s basically the same colors as the heritage ALX400. Number 32905, they’re getting it ready for summer actually, and yes. It’s another Euro II I believe.

 

[MrGriff500]

Also, from people I’ve heard, the refurbished Tridents and B7TL’s are actually quite popular with some commuters. Especially people who experience them daily on routes like the purple line. The interiors are mostly quite clean. Especially in comparison to some of the B9’s. The yellow ones are absolute wrecks! The Presidents are not a problem, both drivers and passengers still like them. Whereas the Streetdecks aren’t that popular it seems, I spoke to a driver of a X29 service streetdeck called it a “gutless pile of rubbish”