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First Group: General Discussion

DragonEast

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6 Sep 2016
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266
It’s something that can be levelled at the major operators. First can be highlighted as can various Stagecoach OpCos but what of Arriva cutting in the Midlands (selling Burton and Wednesfield, closing Stafford, general cutting back in Cannock) and the North East, vacating mid Wales, declining in the Shires?

Phil Stockley writes in Buses and I’ve a lot of time for his views. He states buses aren’t in an existential crisis; I’m not so certain as internet shopping, a fundamental challenge with an underfunded concessionary scheme and an unequal battle with the private car threaten the existence of buses at the margins. It’s an issue across the country.

I tend to agree with Stockley. Superficially everyone is doing the same, and yes is suffering. But often the services in decline are matched by improvements elsewhere locally. A good example in The Shires where on a trunk route suffering with everything you've mentioned Arriva have carefully rearranged it to improve services/frequencies and off peak and evening services specifically. That's hardly giving up. They're also picking up routes from failed local operators. On their similar service, First seem stuck in the mud (as discussed here). I suspect what lies behind it is the longstanding resource famine, and hence my reference to TINA (the acronym, I thought, for "there is no alternative"), and sorry for the crude reference but I think FirstBus are trying to keep the wolf from the door (=starving). Stagecoach East have evident problems, but again one can see light at the end of the tunnel even in the hostile bus territory of the fens and south midlands, suffering economically. The new operators seem to be investing in Manchester. You often quote West of England at me, but from what I read everything isn't rosy (at least from a passenger perspective) and aren't they ceding trunk routes to Stagecoach, admitting a lack of resources to do the job they'd like?

You once asked me why First couldn't transfer their Eastern Counties "initiative" south of Dedham? Well, why not? In the absence of an answer, could I suggest it's because they have resource (management, operationally and fleet) to run either Eastern Counties or Essex, but not both. So they both suffer, and one more than the other. Inevitable; but who'd want to buy either? It's a question I can't answer, despite trying for long enough. They're stuck, which is why I once used the word "stuffed". I think it mirrors the position elsewhere throughout the country. When others consolidated in better times, First didn't (or couldn't). So they entered the bad times in a poor position. Isn't that the fable of the good and poor farmer?

EDIT 2: Though as long as the Competition Commission stay quiet - and why not after all Cambridge City is virtually a Stagecoach monopoly - then perhaps Eastern Counties is an ideal buy for someone; a walk-in bus company with no difficult councils or Mayor to deal with. Accepting the offer is the hard bit, but perhaps David can help there. And even if pigs do start to fly and First have a change of mind, I suspect there are hardly great prospects for growth in Norfolk and Suffolk, except perhaps for another incumbent. Essex, I suspect, is another story; maybe better long-term prospects but with a big headache, or rather one headache after another. Who wants that? I'm sure it's not alone amongst the First OpCos!

With the other companies I'm sometimes impressed by the actions of their regional and national management. With First I'm not even sure what that is, exactly. From what I can see locally the various "bits" are hardly on speaking terms, though that's nothing new (and probably predates First - though doesn't that say something about the quality of corporate management too?)

So I don't think the First bus problem is a recent development solely "caused" by current (hopefully temporary) market conditions affecting everyone - though I don't see anything to magically improve the economy despite anyone's hopes. I think it's a long term issue which they lack the will (and the resource) to tackle. Hence why I think they "have to" get shot of it. I found it interesting they talk of a lack of synergy, I always thought that for a successful business it found synergy, even in apparently disparate businesses; it wasn't something handed down like manna from heaven. To me, bluntly, if you can't find synergy, it's because you lack the will do do so. Nothing wrong with that, just get shot of it. Do you have any alternative?
 
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DragonEast

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As for the wider bus industry (sorry though, this should be a different thread though I haven't the time to sort out which one) it has to change. Services based on getting a workforce at regular times from home to their shifts at the other end of the town no longer cut the mustard (and haven't for years) though they still seem to be the basis of many networks. (With notable exceptions, the Cambridge busway locally; as so often they are based around the medical, or what remaining "big" industry we have left and diminishing rapidly). Work and the weekly shop aren't necessarily the bedrock of the bus any more.

Socially the growth is in leisure, even tourism (where even perhaps the bus takes some business from the coach with its potential for greater flexibility); and the growth markets are commuters (who locally I suspect keep the buses in business, and in chaos - if you look at the streets at the right time!), students, older people and touristy type services which is how much traditional poor territory now does reasonably. But the key factor is change, things don't stay the same: are the bus company thinking locally how to adapt when the new railway station eventually (the emphasis on that word) comes on stream? And that - adaptability - is I think, where First principally fail. Lack of resources - simples. Perhaps it's too hard for them? A formulaic centralised approach - as with so many industries - no longer cuts the mustard. Nor though does decentralised anarchy. And that impossible job of matching resources to demand is the one thing that doesn't change, either. Perhaps there is even no substitute for being pro-active "on the ground" too, we can only do so much in the office. Trite, but it's a question of getting the balance right. EDIT: just perhaps it's not so much a question of the ability to come up with ideas, but having the confidence to experiment, and the patience to persist, and may be where corporate attitudes (or their perception) have a significant influence?

May be it's the reason too why so many Mayors seem so anxious to "take control" of local transport. Though I've yet to come across any politician who understands the concept of the effecient management of resources.

Reliability is key. We all grew up with "you get what you're given" in public services, and old habits die hard.
 
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overthewater

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16 Apr 2012
Messages
8,408
If it's not Greyhound, I will be surprised if its not, what is the most likely UK outcome, it's not Manchesters, it very hard to pin down. Surly there are some rumors about Greyhound?
 

Jordan Adam

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12 Sep 2017
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Aberdeen
I must say while recent service changes in certain areas do give the impression they're heading for a breakup by simplifying routes and withdrawing oldest vehicles making divisions more attractive to potential buyers. I don't have much hope, i know many won't agree but it seems as if every year we get hope for progress and real change, but yet it never actually comes to fruition. I'm not saying progress or a major announcement won't be made soon, however i wouldn't be surprised if this time next year we're having the exact same discussion.
 

overthewater

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8,408
As i say, i'm not predicting or speculating on what may happen, i just don't have much hope given what's happened around this time of year in the past.

Your right, but have bad feeling your words may be the truest of the lot.

Wasn't there a comment a few pages back about their being an announcement soon?

That comment is in the First main thread. Which means it could be about anything including Greyhound.
 

DragonEast

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Joined
6 Sep 2016
Messages
266
I think it'll take time, not least because it's a right old mess; but it'll happen in some form or another. When or what we don't know. Didn't they give themselves six months until the next half yearly report to report substantial progress? That's the target they have to meet to have any credibility surely? As for First Group I'm confident it has no future in UKBus. Quite frankly I think the beleaguered UK bus industry will be the better for it.

Mind you, if any of us think that FirstBus could ever go from being (and boasting of) one of Britains largest bus operators into a clean exit in one fell swoop then perhaps we are as barmy as they are. Most large companies (and governments too) have a strategy which is about preparing for the future. Gradualism. We leave revolution to the undeveloped world; and Britain, apparently.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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I tend to agree with Stockley. Superficially everyone is doing the same, and yes is suffering. But often the services in decline are matched by improvements elsewhere locally. A good example in The Shires where on a trunk route suffering with everything you've mentioned Arriva have carefully rearranged it to improve services/frequencies and off peak and evening services specifically. That's hardly giving up. They're also picking up routes from failed local operators. On their similar service, First seem stuck in the mud (as discussed here). I suspect what lies behind it is the longstanding resource famine, and hence my reference to TINA (the acronym, I thought, for "there is no alternative"), and sorry for the crude reference but I think FirstBus are trying to keep the wolf from the door (=starving). Stagecoach East have evident problems, but again one can see light at the end of the tunnel even in the hostile bus territory of the fens and south midlands, suffering economically. The new operators seem to be investing in Manchester. You often quote West of England at me, but from what I read everything isn't rosy (at least from a passenger perspective) and aren't they ceding trunk routes to Stagecoach, admitting a lack of resources to do the job they'd like?

You once asked me why First couldn't transfer their Eastern Counties "initiative" south of Dedham? Well, why not? In the absence of an answer, could I suggest it's because they have resource (management, operationally and fleet) to run either Eastern Counties or Essex, but not both. So they both suffer, and one more than the other. Inevitable; but who'd want to buy either? It's a question I can't answer, despite trying for long enough. They're stuck, which is why I once used the word "stuffed". I think it mirrors the position elsewhere throughout the country. When others consolidated in better times, First didn't (or couldn't). So they entered the bad times in a poor position. Isn't that the fable of the good and poor farmer?

EDIT 2: Though as long as the Competition Commission stay quiet - and why not after all Cambridge City is virtually a Stagecoach monopoly - then perhaps Eastern Counties is an ideal buy for someone; a walk-in bus company with no difficult councils or Mayor to deal with. Accepting the offer is the hard bit, but perhaps David can help there. And even if pigs do start to fly and First have a change of mind, I suspect there are hardly great prospects for growth in Norfolk and Suffolk, except perhaps for another incumbent. Essex, I suspect, is another story; maybe better long-term prospects but with a big headache, or rather one headache after another. Who wants that? I'm sure it's not alone amongst the First OpCos!

With the other companies I'm sometimes impressed by the actions of their regional and national management. With First I'm not even sure what that is, exactly. From what I can see locally the various "bits" are hardly on speaking terms, though that's nothing new (and probably predates First - though doesn't that say something about the quality of corporate management too?)

So I don't think the First bus problem is a recent development solely "caused" by current (hopefully temporary) market conditions affecting everyone - though I don't see anything to magically improve the economy despite anyone's hopes. I think it's a long term issue which they lack the will (and the resource) to tackle. Hence why I think they "have to" get shot of it. I found it interesting they talk of a lack of synergy, I always thought that for a successful business it found synergy, even in apparently disparate businesses; it wasn't something handed down like manna from heaven. To me, bluntly, if you can't find synergy, it's because you lack the will do do so. Nothing wrong with that, just get shot of it. Do you have any alternative?

Your post is a little difficult to unpick and I'm not certain that I fully appreciate all you said, so forgive me if I do misrepresent you in any way.

The fact is that the entire industry is in a real hard place. The reasons for this are many and some are ones that the industry, and most notably First, HAS to accept:

The austerity cuts that have removed many supported services and journeys that gave a decent return for a relatively minor marginal cost
A poorly funded concessionary scheme that prompts operators to almost penalise actual fare payers
Car centric policies such as the Tory decision NOT to increase fuel duty so that it makes car use ever cheaper, increasing congestion so that buses cannot operate reliably; the fact that the Busway in Cambridgeshire does well is because suddenly the bus HAS that reliability in not being stuck on the A14
Caution in developing new services and products
The rise of internet shopping (allied to an unequal battle on business rates) is destroying many a high street
Especially in Northern England and parts of Scotland, an overall economic malaise is affecting many areas

First was focussed on getting bigger and irrevocably damaged the business by not investing in the fleet (either in replacement or refurbs), abject promotion, ludicrous return thresholds - this is something that has been discussed ad nauseum over the decade and more. That has left it woefully underprepared for the impact of the changing world, which is what I think you refer to by the farmer reference.

Where First is now is that they have turned the corner in many of their OpCos. If you travel to Kernow or West of England, you will see new and refurbished buses, simplified networks, better marketing. Both operations are enjoying passenger growth and that is reflected in the finances. The same can be said of First Cymru. That's not to say it's all rosy - it is still all too easy to get a Kernow Trident suitably repainted but with a faded interior but they are clearly on the right lines. Similarly, First West of England have had to withdraw two trunk services though when you look at them, the Severn Express received new deckers in 2017 and has been promoted - it's just the removal of bridge tolls (and security issues in the Chepstow outbase) that has done for it.

The problem with First is that you do have these exemplars of best practice. It's now extending to First Midlands with Worcester (Salt Road and Nimrod), Leicester (Braunstone) and looks like Potteries is getting the treatment with Kingfisher - yes, they're using Best Impressions to properly market certain routes. First Eastern Counties are doing well with some local (supported by BI) marketing and that's why I question why that influence hasn't extended to Essex. Similarly, having travelled on First West Yorkshire and First South Yorkshire, you wonder why the good stuff in the West ISN'T replicated in the People's Republic? In fact, you can make the argument that by decentralising from the Moir era Aberdeen citadel, it's highlighted the differences between the management teams in different OpCos. Mind you, some of these local differences are also caused by the quality/enthusiasm of the local authority. I've recorded my views of Buses of Somerset (and by god, did someone get bent out of shape) and it's not great though given the tough operating territory and the apathy of Somerset CC, it's perhaps understandable.

First Essex is one of the First OpCos that I really don't know. As you know, WoE is my local firm but in the last year or so, I've notched up days (providing snapshots, I agree) on Manchester, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Cymru, Kernow, Somerset, Berkshire, Worcester - I do travel on other non-First buses too. It (Essex) feels like it should be an area with potential and so why that hasn't been exploited, I just don't know. There is certainly a fair bit of best practice that they could take, and it doesn't have to involve Ray Stenning.

I will point out that if you look at the major groups, they are all cutting back their services. Interestingly, whilst Stagecoach West are taking on Severn Express from First, they are doing so whilst at the same time, effectively halving the main trunk route from the Forest of Dean to Gloucester to achieve it. You mention Arriva but look at their operations compared with the mid 2000s where they've vacated large tracts of the country.

No one can gloss over the issues that First have but the entire industry is hurting, illustrated by how many small firms are going to the wall.
 

smtglasgow

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A big part of the problem with Essex seems to be the fact that so much of the western part of the county is London-facing. The sheer size of the London jobs markets skews everything. Not just the daily exodus on the train, but the vast number of jobs on the fringes. It distorts wages and must be pushing up costs for First Essex while making it harder to recruit in a competitive market. Dragon East has mentioned a number of times that First are constantly under-staffed, and I’m not surprised. My partner is a Pitsea girl and her parents still live there. Compared to more bus-friendly areas, the scale of car-ownership is something to behold – 2 or 3 car households are the norm as adult children can’t afford to move out and everyone works. The congestion that results must make running a reliable bus service highly problematic.

But the area has a strong economy (with some blackspots), so you’d expect a simplified, well-promoted network to do OK. I don’t know the area well enough to suggest any solutions, but to an outsider First’s network seems complicated – lots of 30 min frequencies and variations. Can’t help feeling that trying to emulate what has been achieved in Eastern Counties, WoE and elsewhere would help, but maybe it’s just a matter of time – too much going on at other opco’s for Mr Stenning to have reached Chelmsford?
 

DragonEast

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266
Your post is a little difficult to unpick and I'm not certain that I fully appreciate all you said, so forgive me if I do misrepresent you in any way.

Not misinterpreted at all. The trouble with writing late at night in a hurry!

I just think FirstBus struggles for resources more than the other large groups. As you say largely because of the "size is everything" mantra in the early days. But to me the consequence seems to me that there is a sharp contrast emerging between the cases where local operations really put the effort in and make the most of it (and it shows), and others where everyone seems to have just given up. It's too easy to put it down just to local management charisma and to blame the economy.

I keep bleating on about Essex, sorry. But with a thriving economy, good passenger growth and a high passenger base, a good income that compares favourably other similarly sized OpCos (of all groups), and Best Impressions publicity, a comprehensive network with little competition and one of the most supportive Councils in the south east (outside of London); why does it give the appearance of being down at heel and that management and staff couldn't care less? It defies all logic. What's wrong? Sorry but if First can't get it right with all those advantages, is it so unfair to ask why they should be in the industry?

Arriva (in Herts) and Stagecoach (throughout West Anglia) manage to both looked cared for and enthusiastic in their neighbouring, but less favourable, bus territory.

I don't think it is just a local issue but goes to the heart of what First are about.
 

DragonEast

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Messages
266
A big part of the problem with Essex seems to be the fact that so much of the western part of the county is London-facing. The sheer size of the London jobs markets skews everything. Not just the daily exodus on the train, but the vast number of jobs on the fringes. It distorts wages and must be pushing up costs for First Essex while making it harder to recruit in a competitive market. Dragon East has mentioned a number of times that First are constantly under-staffed, and I’m not surprised. My partner is a Pitsea girl and her parents still live there. Compared to more bus-friendly areas, the scale of car-ownership is something to behold – 2 or 3 car households are the norm as adult children can’t afford to move out and everyone works. The congestion that results must make running a reliable bus service highly problematic.

But the area has a strong economy (with some blackspots), so you’d expect a simplified, well-promoted network to do OK. I don’t know the area well enough to suggest any solutions, but to an outsider First’s network seems complicated – lots of 30 min frequencies and variations. Can’t help feeling that trying to emulate what has been achieved in Eastern Counties, WoE and elsewhere would help, but maybe it’s just a matter of time – too much going on at other opco’s for Mr Stenning to have reached Chelmsford?

Good points; though the west of the county is Arriva territory (where they've expanded), and is neighbouring Herts so different (where Arriva are relatively thriving)? First Essex seem to have put efforts into recruitment over the last couple of years, which seem to be paying off, and their competitors are suffering.

I have mentioned the timetable complexity before. When First withdrew from London, their London team turned up in Essex; and it seemed at the time as though they tried to recreate a London network in the county (without, of course, London subsidies). I have wondered before if the result was a predictable disaster, which is now hard if not impossible to reverse? Reducing buses is never popular. But again isn't it something that national bosses would be alert to, and taking an interest?

As a little aside: a few years ago Essex was plagued by cowboys. At least the First Essex habit of flooding the place with buses may be stopped them from gaining a foothold; we feared for Arriva, but the cowboys self-destructed (with a bit of help from the TC), Arriva stayed the course and now have a near monopoly in West Essex! Perhaps the past comes back to bite us from behind, again?
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Not misinterpreted at all. The trouble with writing late at night in a hurry!

I just think FirstBus struggles for resources more than the other large groups. As you say largely because of the "size is everything" mantra in the early days. But to me the consequence seems to me that there is a sharp contrast emerging between the cases where local operations really put the effort in and make the most of it (and it shows), and others where everyone seems to have just given up. It's too easy to put it down just to local management charisma and to blame the economy.

I keep bleating on about Essex, sorry. But with a thriving economy, good passenger growth and a high passenger base, a good income that compares favourably other similarly sized OpCos (of all groups), and Best Impressions publicity, a comprehensive network with little competition and one of the most supportive Councils in the south east (outside of London); why does it give the appearance of being down at heel and that management and staff couldn't care less? It defies all logic. What's wrong? Sorry but if First can't get it right with all those advantages, is it so unfair to ask why they should be in the industry?

Arriva (in Herts) and Stagecoach (throughout West Anglia) manage to both looked cared for and enthusiastic in their neighbouring, but less favourable, bus territory.

I don't think it is just a local issue but goes to the heart of what First are about.

I agree and disagree with you in various measures. I'm not familiar with First Essex. Outwardly, it seems like it should be an operation that could and should be doing better. It's in the south of England and the council at least try to support buses with their meagre funds. Yet, from what I can see from afar, it is typified by an ageing fleet and relying on some pretty mature cascades.

If I can draw a parallel, you have First Cymru. They have a good powerbase in Swansea though some challenges in the valleys. Under their previous manager, they got a good slew of new vehicles, created the Clipper network (with the blue and gold scheme), binned off the FTR and began to push the University trade. Now, under a protégé of James Freeman, they've introduced the red livery (that FEC have now borrowed for Ipswich) with local identities AND refurbishing vehicles. Now, they're refreshing the Clipper network with a new livery. There have been some service trimmings but overall, it's moving forward as a business. This is despite Cymru not getting new vehicles - they have a number of 2003/4 Darts and, like Essex, have had to rely on ex Bath/Bristol Darts barely a year or two newer.

Why First Cymru can do it but First Essex can't..... I don't know but it doesn't smack of corporate interference except perhaps in not getting the right team in there (and I appreciate I may be doing them a disservice.

The inconsistency of First is baffling at times. First West Yorkshire isn't perfect but it's a world ahead of First South Yorkshire at Doncaster - a very unkempt fleet and that includes the newer machines. When First is good, it's actually very good but when it's bad, it's really bad (and that disparity can exist within the same fleet). Those differences DO exist in the other major groups. We know of Go Ahead's travails in the East. I used to live in Northants and on returning last year, I was shocked how poor the Stagecoach fleet looked and wasn't shocked when they announced some fairly major cuts. Most of all, Arriva seem to have some really weak operations such as in Surrey and Staffordshire. No firm is perfect but it feels that the extremes are more pronounced in First than elsewhere. Some of that is a legacy issue but not all can be explained away.
 

James101

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11 Oct 2017
Messages
155
Spotted a potential (expensive) admin blip in the Bolton sale. On the first morning of Diamond operations I bought a bus only System One on a leased E400 on a 37 from Piccadilly.

My online banking showed the transaction as ‘First Manchester’ - today I revived the same amount back into my account as a refund. Perhaps the back office of the ticket machines hadn’t been updated to reflect the change of operator and First have had to refund all cars transactions as they have no claim over that money?
 

NorthernSpirit

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21 Jun 2013
Messages
2,200
The reasons for this are many and some are ones that the industry, and most notably First, HAS to accept:

  • The austerity cuts that have removed many supported services and journeys that gave a decent return for a relatively minor marginal cost.
  • A poorly funded concessionary scheme that prompts operators to almost penalise actual fare payers.
  • Caution in developing new services and products.
  • The rise of internet shopping (allied to an unequal battle on business rates) is destroying many a high street. Especially in Northern England and parts of Scotland, an overall economic malaise is affecting many areas.

The problem with First is that you do have these exemplars of best practice. It's now extending to First Midlands with Worcester (Salt Road and Nimrod), Leicester (Braunstone) and looks like Potteries is getting the treatment with Kingfisher - yes, they're using Best Impressions to properly market certain routes. First Eastern Counties are doing well with some local (supported by BI) marketing and that's why I question why that influence hasn't extended to Essex. Similarly, having travelled on First West Yorkshire and First South Yorkshire, you wonder why the good stuff in the West ISN'T replicated in the People's Republic? In fact, you can make the argument that by decentralising from the Moir era Aberdeen citadel, it's highlighted the differences between the management teams in different OpCos. Mind you, some of these local differences are also caused by the quality/enthusiasm of the local authority. I've recorded my views of Buses of Somerset (and by god, did someone get bent out of shape) and it's not great though given the tough operating territory and the apathy of Somerset CC, it's perhaps understandable.

Hopefully Ray Stenning and his team at Best Impressions will reach West Yorkshire (more notibly Leeds) as I can see potential in a number of routes that could do with the BI magic wand, for example the X84, the X63 and the X6.

If we look at Huddersfield, the town centre is subject to change profoundly over the next decade and by the plans its not looking good (this includes the Piazza Centre being torn down and making way for a town green with some fountains, some hidious thing being stuck to the side of the bus station and possibly the stops on Market Street M1 and M2 being taken out). Should this go ahead, then I can see First Huddersfield making drastic cuts as half the shops won't be there anymore as most people would either opt to shop online, shop in Leeds or they'd venture off to either Halifax, Wakefield or Manchester.
 

freetoview33

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Spotted a potential (expensive) admin blip in the Bolton sale. On the first morning of Diamond operations I bought a bus only System One on a leased E400 on a 37 from Piccadilly.

My online banking showed the transaction as ‘First Manchester’ - today I revived the same amount back into my account as a refund. Perhaps the back office of the ticket machines hadn’t been updated to reflect the change of operator and First have had to refund all cars transactions as they have no claim over that money?
It's odd because there is a three way agreement in Manchester with First. GNW and Diamond accepting each other's tickets.
 

DragonEast

Member
Joined
6 Sep 2016
Messages
266
I agree and disagree with you in various measures. I'm not familiar with First Essex. Outwardly, it seems like it should be an operation that could and should be doing better. It's in the south of England and the council at least try to support buses with their meagre funds. Yet, from what I can see from afar, it is typified by an ageing fleet and relying on some pretty mature cascades.

If I can draw a parallel, you have First Cymru. They have a good powerbase in Swansea though some challenges in the valleys. Under their previous manager, they got a good slew of new vehicles, created the Clipper network (with the blue and gold scheme), binned off the FTR and began to push the University trade. Now, under a protégé of James Freeman, they've introduced the red livery (that FEC have now borrowed for Ipswich) with local identities AND refurbishing vehicles. Now, they're refreshing the Clipper network with a new livery. There have been some service trimmings but overall, it's moving forward as a business. This is despite Cymru not getting new vehicles - they have a number of 2003/4 Darts and, like Essex, have had to rely on ex Bath/Bristol Darts barely a year or two newer.

Why First Cymru can do it but First Essex can't..... I don't know but it doesn't smack of corporate interference except perhaps in not getting the right team in there (and I appreciate I may be doing them a disservice.

The inconsistency of First is baffling at times. First West Yorkshire isn't perfect but it's a world ahead of First South Yorkshire at Doncaster - a very unkempt fleet and that includes the newer machines. When First is good, it's actually very good but when it's bad, it's really bad (and that disparity can exist within the same fleet). Those differences DO exist in the other major groups. We know of Go Ahead's travails in the East. I used to live in Northants and on returning last year, I was shocked how poor the Stagecoach fleet looked and wasn't shocked when they announced some fairly major cuts. Most of all, Arriva seem to have some really weak operations such as in Surrey and Staffordshire. No firm is perfect but it feels that the extremes are more pronounced in First than elsewhere. Some of that is a legacy issue but not all can be explained away.
Understandably, we focus on appearance, the 10% of the iceberg that we can see. Perhaps what matters more though is the 90% we can't see? So excuse me whilst I engage in some wild speculation.

The south-east (outside London) is hostile bus territory. Affluence and congestion (which go together), if nothing else; and poor investment in local transport infrastructure. The number of accidents on the trunk road network with resulting diversions on to the local network regularly turns it into a disaster.

The local firms cope with it by being careful what they do, and even more careful what they don't. The big companies don't have that option; so take all the most difficult routes to operate, put them together, and you pretty well have First Essex. Of course, they are not the only ones, Arriva and Stagecoach because of their legacy have similar issues. So no wonder they have problems, when operations are a day to day struggle to keep their heads above water. They haven't even time to think about prettifying the buses.

As all of us find in life sometimes, the important things are to try not to bite off more than we can chew, to accept we have to share the burden when we can; and not to make things worse for ourselves by restructuring services to give ourselves (or our drivers in the case of the bus companies) a job they have a hope of doing rather than one which they can't, however hard they try. From painful experience, there is nothing worse. Just put simply, I think First Essex fail on all three. The interesting point is why: not incapability, I suspect, but size = resource to play in the First HQ game. It keeps things nice and simple for HQ (as with so many businesses) but that doesn't make it always right or the best thing.

Of course the Mets have the same issues (as does London) but the investment in transport infrastructure helps (a lot).

Perhaps as in the rest of business, the "secret" is to decide what you do well and then do it to the very best of your ability. Something that newer or smaller entrants to the bus industry (the Reading Buses and Ensigns of this world) have learnt well, but which is harder (and often painful) for the legacy operations of First, Arriva and Stagecoach. Though, when they can eventually manage it, really worthwhile. But it's a curate's egg.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Understandably, we focus on appearance, the 10% of the iceberg that we can see. Perhaps what matters more though is the 90% we can't see? So excuse me whilst I engage in some wild speculation.

The south-east (outside London) is hostile bus territory. Affluence and congestion (which go together), if nothing else; and poor investment in local transport infrastructure. The number of accidents on the trunk road network with resulting diversions on to the local network regularly turns it into a disaster.

The local firms cope with it by being careful what they do, and even more careful what they don't. The big companies don't have that option; so take all the most difficult routes to operate, put them together, and you pretty well have First Essex. Of course, they are not the only ones, Arriva and Stagecoach because of their legacy have similar issues. So no wonder they have problems, when operations are a day to day struggle to keep their heads above water. They haven't even time to think about prettifying the buses.

As all of us find in life sometimes, the important things are to try not to bite off more than we can chew, to accept we have to share the burden when we can; and not to make things worse for ourselves by restructuring services to give ourselves (or our drivers in the case of the bus companies) a job they have a hope of doing rather than one which they can't, however hard they try. From painful experience, there is nothing worse. Just put simply, I think First Essex fail on all three. The interesting point is why: not incapability, I suspect, but size = resource to play in the First HQ game. It keeps things nice and simple for HQ (as with so many businesses) but that doesn't make it always right or the best thing.

Of course the Mets have the same issues (as does London) but the investment in transport infrastructure helps (a lot).

Perhaps as in the rest of business, the "secret" is to decide what you do well and then do it to the very best of your ability. Something that newer or smaller entrants to the bus industry (the Reading Buses and Ensigns of this world) have learnt well, but which is harder (and often painful) for the legacy operations of First, Arriva and Stagecoach. Though, when they can eventually manage it, really worthwhile. But it's a curate's egg.

Again, I'll caveat things by saying that I am unfamiliar with First Essex these days. I do take your point about the 10% and yes, the marketing is the final aspect of any development plan. The product has to be got right. Prime in that has to be reliability - the bus arrives when it is supposed to and is able to keep to the timetable. Drivers need to be courteous. Vehicles need to be clean and well presented. Those are entry level requirements, more important that cost. Taking that on board and a comment from another poster, it appears that the product in that respect perhaps needs some addressing. You'll know better than me but outwardly things look overly complex in terms of routes. Chelmsford services have examples of 2, 3 or even 4 different route variations and numbers. They also rely on a cross town service pattern. That perhaps makes sense in terms of linking areas with the hospital for example but with traffic congestion, it might help service reliability to disconnect some of these?

Broadening this out from First Essex, I'll again point to First West of England and how that business HAS changed as perhaps an example of what can be achieved. Now, I don't know the Essex management team's credentials, but with FWoE, you have some very experienced people led by James Freeman, a man who has been around the block. The changes haven't always been "positive".

For instance, the Mendip operations were a couple of main corridors, some secondary routes, and a number of marginal ones. The latter have all gone; some went to Buses of Somerset whilst around Frome, they have been ceded to various independents. Instead, First have focussed their resources on the key corridors viz Bristol to Street and Bath to Wells. In respect of these, the plan has been to introduce route branding and improved services, whilst making steps to make them more reliable (including some disconnecting some long established services). Whilst not everything has "come off" (it is never a precise science), the result has generally been positive in that Wells depot (always a single deck only depot) will soon have a fleet of 20 or so double deckers, such has been the improvement in loadings. Whilst the Bristol route received new deckers, the other services have benefitted from refurbished vehicles, properly marketed, and being relatively reliable.

I can also point to First Midlands where Nigel Eggleton has had a really hard time turning around parts of that business. I don't know him but people who do report that the problems inherent in a Potteries business (that had been an unloved child of the Manchester business for a while) were far deeper than originally envisaged. This at a time when the local retail economy is really tanking, and where the local councils have slashed supported services with a tepid view of local bus services generally, irrespective of the operator. However, despite the pain in the Potteries (and B Bank has highlighted the service cuts extensively), it is now stabilised and the first examples of brand development are beginning. That the Potteries business should never have got into such a state is not beyond dispute; however, any operator would have had to make some hard decisions given the backdrop of council apathy and the wider economic picture.

As I say, it isn't that First can't do it as there are examples where they can and do, despite the restrictions on capital. Sometimes, it does point to the issue of local management. In fact, I actually fully understand why First pulled out of Clacton; probably made a lot of sense. However, it feels like there is probably a good operation in there somewhere but perhaps it needs a James Freeman or an Alex Carter to go in with a vision of what to do. Perhaps that IS happening in the background but, I grant you, it doesn't immediately appear so.
 
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Understandably, the priority has been for First Essex has been to stem the losses. The next accounts due in January should show a profit, albeit a small one. Behind the scenes, a lot of work has and is being done to reduce inefficiencies, so the following accounts should make better reading.

There will still be the cascades from other regions, there isn't a compelling reason for First to buy new stock for Essex, like there is in Glasgow or Leeds. A new owner, if one comes along would change that hopefully.

The airport routes are due new fit for purpose stock, but all that I know so far is speculation, so I won't comment further on that.

I think with Essex, once the financials are a bit healthier, the rest will follow. Already, some efficiencies have been made in the scheduling and it does appear that specific problems with timekeeping on individual journeys are starting to be addressed.

There are problems with First Essex but they can't all be changed overnight in the same sense that they have taken years to develop. I do feel that Essex could do with some more "busmen" as opposed to managers, but the problem for First seems to be in finding them. Maybe a new owner would have an easier time setting up a new direction from scratch.
 

DragonEast

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Yep, I understand everything you say about FWE, which is my limited experience of them too on occasional vists. But Essex don't need to look that far; their neighbours Arriva in west Essex and throughout the northern Home Counties, have done the same and thinned out and shortened town routes to limit the impact of congestion. First Essex, despite endless exhortations, have deliberately and wilfully refused to do the same. They haven't graced us with the dignity of an explanation. I can only suggest they have suicidal tendencies.

It's a moot point, debated endlessly locally, about whether the financials constrain the operation, or the operational inefficiency is at the root of the poor financial performance. Though as poster Insp. Bloke says the problems are longstanding and won't be solved overnight. They even pre-date First's ownership, though after 20 years I can understand why passengers are well beyond the end of their tether.

The local Arriva have grown as a consequence of addressing all these issues, both absorbing major subsidy cuts and growing services including off peak, evenings and Sundays, and taking routes from failed independents, and securing major investment as their returns improve. Passenger and income growth has been good.

We know about the Chelmsford local services, where there are two major congestion nodes at either end of town, and First insist on running, even adding to, their (largely empty) local services through both of them, rather than splitting cross town routes, and duplicating services with minor route variations. The City is constrained by Green Belt so routes cannot be made long enough to introduce sufficient recovery time - a problem throughout the home counties. Reliability is horrendous (hence why it is easier to travel by anything than bus, even walking). Colchester and Basildon/Hadleigh are even worse. First just endlessly tweak timetables which makes no difference, like a stuck record. As you've said, some things I suppose just defy any rational explanation! Sadly Clacton and Braintree (both closed) were their best operations, albeit hopelessly uncompetitive.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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The local Arriva have grown as a consequence, both absorbing major subsidy cuts and growing services including off peak, evenings and Sundays, and taking routes from failed independents, and securing major investment as their returns improve. Passenger and income growth has been good.

Interesting that you mention the local Arriva. Is this Colchester and Southend? If it's the old Shires business, I'd be rather surprised especially when you consider how much they have contracted in the last 10-15 years and are not regarded as the epitome of great bus operation (see Hemel minis, Stevenage fleet shortages, decline of services around Stevenage and Hitchin) and eventually a fracturing so that the old Luton and District business is now administered from Leicester.
 

158756

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Like London, you could have a large number of potential passengers in connections to the rail stations in South Essex. But the woeful lack of integration between modes in this country rules that out.
 

DragonEast

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Interesting that you mention the local Arriva. Is this Colchester and Southend? If it's the old Shires business, I'd be rather surprised especially when you consider how much they have contracted in the last 10-15 years and are not regarded as the epitome of great bus operation (see Hemel minis, Stevenage fleet shortages, decline of services around Stevenage and Hitchin) and eventually a fracturing so that the old Luton and District business is now administered from Leicester.
I am thinking of the Shires operation. But your post demonstrates the influence of perspective.

Looked at on paper Arriva Herts and Shires and Essex have contracted majorly, and they've had longstanding staffing issues in Hemel and Stevenage, and Harlow, and the minibus disaster. BUT their contraction was largely due to withdrawing from the services they didn't do well (the rural links and smaller towns) and concentrating on their interurban network which they can do well. They co-exist with Uno, Red Eagle and Centrebus who have stepped in on less renumerative routes (and Uno's concentration on a student network) and I don't see that as any source of problem, it's what I meant earlier by "sharing the burden". It was mostly a sensible plan/strategy not force of circumstance. I don't think of that as bad business, rather as good business. Ensign and Reading (and numerous of the better local operators, think Lynx and Borderbus in East Anglia) do the same. Back to First Essex who try to do everything, and do it badly. A couple of years ago I feared for the future of Arriva too when they looked like may be they were under threat, but they've come back.

In the last couple of years they've taken over routes to the south of Harlow, just reorganised the trunk 300/2301/302 Herts town network, and re-organised routes in Hemel, Stevenage and Harlow in the way I think First Essex should to limit the impact of congestion and the Green Belt. OK it's all messed up when they can't get the staff, but that is no different with anybody, and you can't always blame the company for that. They're also getting more competitive on subsidised routes. They can't get the calibre of staff locally, but that is a problem for everyone. Interestingly First are probably making the best attempt at addressing that, but again it's patchy. I recall reading about a Better Journeys for Life session in Basildon at which virtually all the drivers used the opportunity to "have a go" at the passengers, and even a Union rep was laughed at for suggesting they should remember who pays their wages and ask what they can do for the company rather than always the other way around. It must be very hard to change attitudes like that, and Arriva suffer from it as much as First.

Colchester and Southend both struggle in their own way, but again Arriva try to concentrate on what they do well. Look too at the bus network based on Stansted.

I think the days of the bus company that does everything (a la NBC) are numbered, at least outside the mets and conurbations. Success is deciding what you do well, then concentrating on that and doing it to the best of your ability. And on that criteria I think the Shires, Herts and Essex aren't doing so badly at all. We all make mistakes (like the Hemel minibus) and it isn't not making the mistake, but then changing it that matters.

If we judge a bus company just by the size and dominance of its operation then First Essex is a success, and indeed until the recent losses, I suspect that was exactly how First Essex was judged. The trouble is that neglect was storing up problems for the future, and they've now hit, and hit hard. A stitch in time . . .
 

KendalKing

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The south-east (outside London) is hostile bus territory. Affluence and congestion (which go together), if nothing else; and poor investment in local transport infrastructure. The number of accidents on the trunk road network with resulting diversions on to the local network regularly turns it into a disaster.
This is also a problem, in other parts of the UK, not just the South East.
 

K4016td

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I see that you've mentioned South East in here - I can describe how in my opinion First operations around Slough work.
First Berkshire seems to be an isolated operation and a shadow of its former network. Only 9 routes are left within Slough and surrounding area - the rest is operated by Courtney, Reading Buses or Redline which is pathetic as they don't accept eachothers tickets anymore. The tickets became expensive, level of service is low due to congestion that affect most of the routes and links that once were established and served local communities were broken. Of course it's not only First's fault as the council announced cuts to budget spent on local transport when spending millions on useless things like sports centres or a bus station that is not even fully functional as most of the bus services prefer to use bus stops on the surrounding roads as it is quicker than entering the bus station, reversing, then waiting on the double traffic lights. Nightmare...

Personally I think that all of this problem began when First left London and the operations in Slough started to become managed from Hampshire & Dorset division. Frequent changes in the network without taking a close look on how the network is used and lack of intitiative for trying new routes, their constant rebranding, spending more focus on repainting the vehicles and then not keeping them to allocated routes anyway, lack of professional approach to the information on their website and announcing the cuts and fare increases on the last minute is pathetic. How come they still cannot publish their prices for single and return tickets when their customer service team is constanlty asked about it on Twitter and can't even answer it properly which I've seen on numerous occasions.

Another thing - maybe I don't understand how the bus systems work in the UK, but what is the point of keeping the same every 30 minutes frequency out of peak hours when the buses are carrying air from one terminus to the other? Shouldn't those resources be used in peak times to increase the amount of availible vehicles and help with the school and work traffic between 3 and 5 pm? Let's say boost the frequency to every 20 minutes between 7 and 9 and 15 and 17 but reduce it to 40-45 between 9 and 3 when no one is using the buses except for the elderly. Back in my home country there are two sets of buses for that - ones that are new or chepaer to run carry passengers for a whole day, but the older ones which are less economical or not repainted yet are not scrapped but kept for peak runs only.

Only thing I would say is succesfull in First Berkshire its their Heathrow network, although in my opinion it is nowhere as close to the 7 series network that was also serving the communities on the way as each route used different streets and they met in Colnbrook. Another thing is hard to compete with TfL's 81 on a Langley to Slough section due to the price differences, First tend to charge 2-3 times more so the choice is obvious.
 

DragonEast

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With Go Ahead also not doing well in the area, you have to wonder how Stephens are doing?
When First Essex were making their loss on a £53m turnover, I think Stephensons made £2m profit on a £10m turnover.

They largely run peripheral routes commercially which First abandoned as uncommercial (as indeed do Arriva), school and local authority contracts, and are the major contract competitor to First Essex, with recent successes.Their fleet seems in reasonably good shape. Their Suffolk operation is suffering with local authority cutbacks, whereas Essex are concentrating theirs on the evening and Sunday work in which First predominate. Interestingly I think they're run by a former Essex MD, perhaps in the early days of First or just before, and I think are a significant influence in Uno, both a beneficiary and a victim in Arriva territory. They have over recent years been picking up other local independents with perhaps up to half a dozen routes.

If First Essex just withdrew they'd seem to be well-positioned to pick up business, but I just suspect they'd be very hesitant about the volume urban stuff, just because of the costs and nightmare logistics. That's again what I was thinking about operators that are careful with what they don't do.

But I don't think in any sense can we compare them with First and Arriva. Their business is rather more like Go Ahead's in East Anglia, and I think of similar scale. In a way they're the "successor" to First Essex in Braintree as Go Ahead are in Clacton, though in both cases First kept hold of the major trunk route.
 

Cesarcollie

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When First Essex were making their loss on a £53m turnover, I think Stephensons made £2m profit on a £10m turnover.

They largely run peripheral routes commercially which First abandoned as uncommercial (as indeed do Arriva), school and local authority contracts, and are the major contract competitor to First Essex, with recent successes.Their fleet seems in reasonably good shape. Their Suffolk operation is suffering with local authority cutbacks, whereas Essex are concentrating theirs on the evening and Sunday work in which First predominate. Interestingly I think they're run by a former Essex MD, perhaps in the early days of First or just before, and I think are a significant influence in Uno, both a beneficiary and a victim in Arriva territory. They have over recent years been picking up other local independents with perhaps up to half a dozen routes.

If First Essex just withdrew they'd seem to be well-positioned to pick up business, but I just suspect they'd be very hesitant about the volume urban stuff, just because of the costs and nightmare logistics. That's again what I was thinking about operators that are careful with what they don't do.

But I don't think in any sense can we compare them with First and Arriva. Their business is rather more like Go Ahead's in East Anglia, and I think of similar scale. In a way they're the "successor" to First Essex in Braintree as Go Ahead are in Clacton, though in both cases First kept hold of the major trunk route.

Yes, although interestingly with the addition of the NIBS buses business late last year, which in turn took over Ensign’s Brentwood network a couple of months ago, they’re up to about 140 vehicles and I guess probably a £15m turnover. That’s considerably bigger than Go Ahead (Hedingham plus Chambers) and now covers pretty much the whole of Essex with a (relatively) modern fleet.
 

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