First Group: General Discussion

[stevieinselby]

Just my suspicion, but I wonder if First’s new style timetables with irregular intervals could be having an adverse impact regarding successful franchising bids.

Unlikely – if the franchising authority sets the timetable then First won't have the freedom to stuff it up with their AI-generated garbage, so how they set their commercial route timetables isn't relevant.

Bigger buses for the 16 by the looks of it, Connexions currently uses a Solo for it.

They've got a new Enviro 200MMC, reg YY25JBO ... not sure what size it is and how it compares with a Solo but I suspect it will be little difference and they will have gone for a small model in order to fit round the tight residential streets, and the reason for the change is that Pullman prefer Enviros to Solos rather than to provide extra capacity.

 

[Goldfish62]

Unlikely – if the franchising authority sets the timetable then First won't have the freedom to stuff it up with their AI-generated garbage, so how they set their commercial route timetables isn't relevant.

It would most unwise for any franchising authority to go beyond specifying first and last buses and frequencies by time-band and day type. Actually writing the timetable imports liability and is a get-out for the operator in respect of poor performance.

Judging by the latest timetables for Cornwall First have learned their lesson. Rather than random running times for each individual trip, running times are increased and decreased according by time of day - what many operators have been doing for years. "AI" analysing huge amounts and coming up with recommendations was never the problem. The problem was how First used that information.

 

[YorkRailFan]

They've got a new Enviro 200MMC, reg YY25JBO

It's on bustimes as fleet number 44973

 

[G760XRE]

For some reason the First Portsmouth thread has been locked, so I'm putting this here.

Noticed at Potteries Adderley Green depot today was Portsmouth streetlite 63310 SN65OLR. It had been prepped for paint, probably into corporate livery. Is this for onward transfer? Long way to come for a coat of paint!
Picture below. Apologies about the quality. It was parked in an awkward place to get a photo.

63310 SN65OLR

First Portsmouth Streetlite, prepped and ready for repaint at First Potteries AG depot. 5.4.25.

www.flickr.com

 

[Andyh82]

It’s one thing removing all the local liveries and having a corporate livery, but they seem to be taking it further by axing any sort of branded livery or route branding.

High profile routes have had branding even back in the days of the Barbie livery

How many years do we think it’ll be before someone sees that a high profile route isn’t growing so they come up with the idea of having a branded livery?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It’s one thing removing all the local liveries and having a corporate livery, but they seem to be taking it further by axing any sort of branded livery or route branding.

High profile routes have had branding even back in the days of the Barbie livery

How many years do we think it’ll be before someone sees that a high profile route isn’t growing so they come up with the idea of having a branded livery?

Indeed - something that has caught my eye.

Giles Fearley’s only claim to fame was to introduce the awful Olympia Livery. I would argue that it was the following regime that allowed more local management and liveries. There was possibly too many of the individual liveries in operating companies such as Leicester pre electric and Sheffield that has lead to a return to a corporate style.

You what? This IS the following regime. Giles was there from 2011 to late 2020 when Janette Bell replaced him.

It was Giles that brought in people like James Freeman, Alex Carter, and Nigel Eggleton into First Bus. Perhaps not surprisingly, two of those retired not long after Giles left, and Eggleton got the push in 2022. GF had the unenviable task of sorting out First Bus that was woefully prepared for DDA/PSVAR regs, and the group had to be bailed out with a rights issue whilst also flogging off/closing down various parts of the bus business. He then brought in some experienced people to lead those regional businesses.

Sadly, Janette Bell has come in and decided that ten regions would be reduced to six in 2022 (hence why Eggleton went) and the centralisation mantra has only accelerated since then. Back to the dark ages.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

For some reason the First Portsmouth thread has been locked, so I'm putting this here.

Noticed at Potteries Adderley Green depot today was Portsmouth streetlite 63310 SN65OLR. It had been prepped for paint, probably into corporate livery. Is this for onward transfer? Long way to come for a coat of paint!
Picture below. Apologies about the quality. It was parked in an awkward place to get a photo.

63310 SN65OLR

First Portsmouth Streetlite, prepped and ready for repaint at First Potteries AG depot. 5.4.25.

www.flickr.com

63310 and 63297 have both been VOR at Hoeford, I believe, for some time - both were expected to be transferred out along with their sisters when the Wright GB Kite introduction was completed.

63310 was initially pencilled in for Huddersfield, but 63306 went north with 63309/11 instead.

Other examples of the same batch went to Berkshire, to replace B7RLEs and expand the fleet as service increases happened. There are still three B7RLEs left - the single-deck fleet is entirely StreetLite otherwise now - so it could well be their destination to complete the delayed standardisation.

 

[asw22]

Indeed - something that has caught my eye.

You what? This IS the following regime. Giles was there from 2011 to late 2020 when Janette Bell replaced him.

It was Giles that brought in people like James Freeman, Alex Carter, and Nigel Eggleton into First Bus. Perhaps not surprisingly, two of those retired not long after Giles left, and Eggleton got the push in 2022. GF had the unenviable task of sorting out First Bus that was woefully prepared for DDA/PSVAR regs, and the group had to be bailed out with a rights issue whilst also flogging off/closing down various parts of the bus business. He then brought in some experienced people to lead those regional businesses.

Sadly, Janette Bell has come in and decided that ten regions would be reduced to six in 2022 (hence why Eggleton went) and the centralisation mantra has only accelerated since then. Back to the dark ages.

In addition between 2011 and 2020, many local brands appeared (Leeds City, City of Bradford, Ipswich Reds, Excel, Buses of Somerset etc) reflecting the local nature of many bus markets (similar to the Blazefield and Go Ahead approach). Post GF era, it seems to be moving back to a national model.

 

[-Colly405-]

It’s one thing removing all the local liveries and having a corporate livery, but they seem to be taking it further by axing any sort of branded livery or route branding.

Buses of First Somerset have announced that the Exmoor Coaster is to be the EX1 Exmoor Explorer this year, apparently as a result of the Group rebrand, "Following First Bus’s rebrand in December 2024, the Exmoor Coaster has been renamed the Exmoor Explorer (EX1) service.". So unbranded and rebranded...

Popular Exmoor Explorer (Exmoor Coaster) returns for Summer 2025 | FirstBusS&SW News

First Bus in Somerset, in collaboration with Devon County Council and Somerset Council, is excited to announce the return of the Exmoor Explorer (EX1) service (previously the Exmoor Coaster) for Summer 2025.

news-ssandsw.firstbus.co.uk

 

[SSmith2009]

In addition between 2011 and 2020, many local brands appeared (Leeds City, City of Bradford, Ipswich Reds, Excel, Buses of Somerset etc) reflecting the local nature of many bus markets (similar to the Blazefield and Go Ahead approach). Post GF era, it seems to be moving back to a national model.

Same with the pink fronted livery found mostly around the Midlands area, they had clear localised branding then came the branded vehicles into Leicester which were introduced onto the 14/14A, 18 and 88/88A services and were attributed to an increase in passenger numbers on those routes.

 

[Omnidekkalover]

My issue with the national model is it feels like it sucks any life out of a service (peak link 272 dedicated bus 37494) and reduces any local connections at all. It also makes it seem like one giant corporation with no interest in the community in my opinion which is really bad impression.

 

[Volvodart]

I see that the Adventures by Bus website has been discontinued.

 

[Ewan M]

Not sure if it’s already been mentioned on this but First Bus London are now renumbering the ex-RATP fleet into their standard numbering system

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Not sure if it’s already been mentioned on this but First Bus London are now renumbering the ex-RATP fleet into their standard numbering system

Noticed at the weekend that vehicles in central London (mainly Westbourne Park's vehicles?) had the new fleetnames but where I was in the suburbs (around Putney - Fulwell?) then the RATP name was still much in evidence.

 

[Goldfish62]

Noticed at the weekend that vehicles in central London (mainly Westbourne Park's vehicles?) had the new fleetnames but where I was in the suburbs (around Putney - Fulwell?) then the RATP name was still much in evidence.

Yes, it's all quite slow. Legal lettering still showing RATP Group as well.

 

[Whiteway215]

Not sure if it’s already been mentioned on this but First Bus London are now renumbering the ex-RATP fleet into their standard numbering system

Are they actually carrying the ‘First’ fleet numbers?

 

[Ewan M]

Are they actually carrying the ‘First’ fleet numbers?

I don’t think so atm but if you go onto the BusTimes website and look up the First Bus London fleet list, nearly all of the fleet has the First fleet numbers now

 

[Simon75]

Noticed at the weekend that vehicles in central London (mainly Westbourne Park's vehicles?) had the new fleetnames but where I was in the suburbs (around Putney - Fulwell?) then the RATP name was still much in evidence.

I saw a 18 bus a few days ago with RATP name too

 

[Simon75]

Yes, it's all quite slow. Legal lettering still showing RATP Group as well.

Thought tge legals would have been done overnight after the handover ?

 

[Russel]

Is the Dorset Jurassic Coast branding for the X53/52/51 being dropped?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is the Dorset Jurassic Coast branding for the X53/52/51 being dropped?

With the exception of areas with a partnership agreement (e.g. Solent, Leicester) or franchising (e.g. Manchester), then it would seem that First ultraviolet will be applied. Even local descriptors (e.g. Norwich Electrics) are dropped.

That said, the JC branding will still be on bus stops and some vehicles for a while yet but that's really it for local branding.

 

[Russel]

With the exception of areas with a partnership agreement (e.g. Solent, Leicester) or franchising (e.g. Manchester), then it would seem that First ultraviolet will be applied. Even local descriptors (e.g. Norwich Electrics) are dropped.

That said, the JC branding will still be on bus stops and some vehicles for a while yet but that's really it for local branding.

Not sure I really understand the logic First are using here then, the Jurassic Coast branding, along with others, are well established and recognisable brands, seems odd to discard them.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Not sure I really understand the logic First are using here then, the Jurassic Coast branding, along with others, are well established and recognisable brands, seems odd to discard them.

The logic is that they believe (!) that the First brand is uniform and strong (or will be). Also, there are savings to be had from a consistent brand and not repainting vehicles/having them running in old schemes. They are also apparently having a centralised marketing team (cost saving again!) so that again promotes the consistent approach.

You can see some of logic there as First West of England currently have 31 different livery variations (and that's not including one offs, promos, contract liveries etc).

However, I think it would a) have been sensible for some exemptions for especially high profile routes (like Norfolk's Excel, or the JC corridor) and b) enable some sort of route branding/local branding on UltraViolet but in a corporate style. Doesn't appear that will be the case though.

 

[baza585]

The logic is that they believe (!) that the First brand is uniform and strong (or will be). Also, there are savings to be had from a consistent brand and not repainting vehicles/having them running in old schemes. They are also apparently having a centralised marketing team (cost saving again!) so that again promotes the consistent approach.

You can see some of logic there as First West of England currently have 31 different livery variations (and that's not including one offs, promos, contract liveries etc).

However, I think it would a) have been sensible for some exemptions for especially high profile routes (like Norfolk's Excel, or the JC corridor) and b) enable some sort of route branding/local branding on UltraViolet but in a corporate style. Doesn't appear that will be the case though.

Agree with all that you say.

Part of the issue is that some of the JC buses are also used on school and college services in the winter. The JC routes are very hard on vehicles and unavailability is common. So do you brand too many, and accept they will appear on other routes, or do you put up with regular unbranded appearances?

Personally I think limited local branding on the basic livery is the least bad solution. But that's only my opinion!

Only the original Omnidekkers and the late model B9TLs have been able to cope reliably with the steep hills and the high speed running that the JC routes demand . Im not sure there is anything completely suitable currently available as new.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

The logic is that they believe (!) that the First brand is uniform and strong (or will be). Also, there are savings to be had from a consistent brand and not repainting vehicles/having them running in old schemes. They are also apparently having a centralised marketing team (cost saving again!) so that again promotes the consistent approach.

You can see some of logic there as First West of England currently have 31 different livery variations (and that's not including one offs, promos, contract liveries etc).

However, I think it would a) have been sensible for some exemptions for especially high profile routes (like Norfolk's Excel, or the JC corridor) and b) enable some sort of route branding/local branding on UltraViolet but in a corporate style. Doesn't appear that will be the case though.

Route branding and local liveries don’t work for a company as large as First especially when buses are frequently transferred around the country.

I don’t even want to imagine how much money was wasted on the constant repaints. A standard uniform livery and standard interiors mean that when the buses are inevitably cascaded - they can enter service straight away without all the unnecessary faffing around trying to repaint Green buses that should be Red etc etc

 

[stevenedin]

Route branding and local liveries don’t work for a company as large as First especially when buses are frequently transferred around the country.

I don’t even want to imagine how much money was wasted on the constant repaints. A standard uniform livery and standard interiors mean that when the buses are inevitably cascaded - they can enter service straight away without all the unnecessary faffing around trying to repaint Green buses that should be Red etc etc

I agree. Uniform liveries are best. Route branding can be used in the form of stickers that can be peeled off without affecting the livery but that is only if they really require them.

 

[mangad]

Route branding and local liveries don’t work for a company as large as First especially when buses are frequently transferred around the country.

You say that but when Stagecoach introduced the local livery, there was one very noticeable exemption. The expectation was the Lakes Connection branding would be axed. Instead it has grown in use.

Stagecoach, whilst stamping a uniform look and feel on most of its fleet, accepted that there were definitely cases when special branding was justified. And it's highly noticeable that the area they did that was a heavily tourist focused area.

I can't help but think on a local level, there will be people at First thinking head office are off their rockers for what they're doing.

And let's not forget Go Ahead are a big operation too, with local branding and liveries throughout. Somehow they make it work for them.

 

[OptareOlympus]

Only the original Omnidekkers and the late model B9TLs have been able to cope reliably with the steep hills and the high speed running that the JC routes demand . Im not sure there is anything completely suitable currently available as new.

Volvo B8L Evoseti would be the go to, but I very much doubt they would fit through the Lyme Regis narrows and Rodden Row corner in Abbotsbury wouldn't be great either. Then there's west Lulworth too. Shame as they would be perfect otherwise.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You say that but when Stagecoach introduced the local livery, there was one very noticeable exemption. The expectation was the Lakes Connection branding would be axed. Instead it has grown in use.

Stagecoach, whilst stamping a uniform look and feel on most of its fleet, accepted that there were definitely cases when special branding was justified. And it's highly noticeable that the area they did that was a heavily tourist focused area.

I can't help but think on a local level, there will be people at First thinking head office are off their rockers for what they're doing.

And let's not forget Go Ahead are a big operation too, with local branding and liveries throughout. Somehow they make it work for them.

One of the reasons for the introduction of the local livery was that incrementally, there had been a surge in variations in beachball. The red version for Devon, North Devon Wave, the Coastliner version, Kings City in Winchester, and quite a few others which were beachball but heavily branded (esp in Sussex).

The Lakes has always been a bit of a special case (even in stripes days) - a tacit admission that it needs something more subtle/less garish?

Personal view... the sheer number of liveries had grown so much that it was getting out of hand? Perhaps just a few allowable templates would've sufficed - perhaps the red version (e.g. South Wales, Eastern Counties Coastal Reds) as a national scheme and then a couple of permitted alternatives for special services?

 

[Andyh82]

It probably had got out of hand, although some areas brands were stronger and more well developed than others. Buses of Somerset predated the other areas by quite a few years and was used as the primary brand on all publicity. Some others like ‘Bradford’ were just a livery and the company was always still referred to as First West Yorkshire in any publicity or press coverage.

The big delivery of electrics last year probably didn’t help as it meant suddenly fairly new buses that were not due a repaint were now cascaded all over the country, and as they were fairly new, such as the Leeds streetdecks, they were all in local liveries.

Even if they dropped local liveries there is still a place for high profile routes, like the Jurassic Coaster to be branded. Would they really be dropping the Excel brand at Eastern Counties for example?