First Group: General Discussion

[Goldfish62]

How quickly is the move to franchising likely to take off, given the new government's support for local decision making, and in which of the likely contenders is First a significant operator? South and West Yorkshire certainly but I'm a bit out of touch with recent changes.

It won't happen everywhere by any means. In respect of current First territory, I'm only aware of West Yorkshire definitely going ahead. Wales and South Yorkshire are at the "we're going to do it at some stage soon" stage. Plus Strathclyde of course.

 

[Paperyostrich]

Seems to be everything is turning purple - thus also rendering many of the local names redundant also (Ipswich reds for example). One of the eclipse 2’s has already been repainted there.

Local publicity however seems to be slow at switching over - changes in Essex at the end of the July are still in Essex Bus/Shuttles style. Do we think they’ll eventually move over to a national timetable/marketing template? (like Stagecoach has).

I do find it odd considering in Somerset they are renewing lots of bus stop flags with BoS branding. In the last month or so lots more bus stops have been done. Seems like a massive waste if they are scrapping it all

 

[WAB]

I do find it odd considering in Somerset they are renewing lots of bus stop flags with BoS branding. In the last month or so lots more bus stops have been done. Seems like a massive waste if they are scrapping it all

Similarly, in Leeds the LeedsCity brand has been put on the flags and the timetable posters.

 

[Goldfish62]

Similarly, in Leeds the LeedsCity brand has been put on the flags and the timetable posters.

Isn't all this just typical First though? Although of course in the case of Leeds the brand will disappear anyway in favour of whatever branding WYCA go for.

 

[padbus]

It's a good point about Heathrow. The airport is generous in terms of operator support and thus in return is able to dictate branding.

I'm sure that Cornwall Council would also want something bespoke under the Transport for Cornwall banner, notwithstanding that there have been no repaints for almost 18 months and it feels like every Kernow bus is in a different livery currently.

Surely the best livery for Kernow would be red.

 

[Murray J]

I do find it odd considering in Somerset they are renewing lots of bus stop flags with BoS branding. In the last month or so lots more bus stops have been done. Seems like a massive waste if they are scrapping it all

I think Buses of Somerset will be one of the brands that remains, considering that the local council appears to have had some sort of role in designing the latest livery and the brand has been in place longer than all others in First.

 

[OptareOlympus]

What will happen with Ensignbus is the big question? Will it continue as a standalone unit and brand or will the local services be absorbed into First Essex and all receive the new purple livery, leaving Ensignbus as the dealer/private hire brand?

 

[Goldfish62]

Surely the best livery for Kernow would be red.

I'm sure that would be the council's preference, but they'd probably settle for a green version.

What will happen with Ensignbus is the big question? Will it continue as a standalone unit and brand or will the local services be absorbed into First Essex and all receive the new purple livery, leaving Ensignbus as the dealer/private hire brand?

Just a hunch. I'd say it will stay as is. Apart from some ticket acceptance there's been absolutely no integration. Looking at the website you'd have absolutely no idea that Ensign is anything to do with First.

But who knows what the future might hold?

 

[Whiteway215]

The last repaints in Cornwall were a handful of B9s early last year into base Kernow and Lizard liveries. They never received full branding vinyls. Everything else imported since then has remained in whatever livery they turned up in.

As for Bath, I was in the area recently and couldn't make head or tail of what was going on with liveries. It was all over the place.

I’m sorry you couldn’t make head or tail of it, but then neither can the locals!

 

[JumpinTrainz]

A corporate livery really is the best decision. I’m even okay with not having local fleet names on buses. It would allow buses to be cascaded throughout the network effortlessly without the constant need for repaints. It has just got completely out of control since local branding was introduced in 2018. I can’t imagine how much money has been wasted on repaints.

Plus the new livery is very smart and striking. Similar to how the Barbie livery was when first introduced back in the late 90s.

 

[cactustwirly]

What does the new livery look like?

 

[Dfatcontroller]

What does the new livery look like?

67856 - SN13EEX (2024 Corporate) (OS)

The first of the single deckers in the First Glasgow fleet to be repainted into the 2024 Corporate livery is Dumbarton based Alexander Dennis Enviro 300 67856 - SN13EEX.

flic.kr

38480 - LG72EAE (2024 Corporate)

Repainted into the 2024 FirstGroup corporate livery is First Glasgow Alexander Dennis Enviro 400 City EV bodied BYD electric double decker 38480 - LG72EAE.

flic.kr

 

[stevenedin]

A corporate livery really is the best decision. I’m even okay with not having local fleet names on buses. It would allow buses to be cascaded throughout the network effortlessly without the constant need for repaints. It has just got completely out of control since local branding was introduced in 2018. I can’t imagine how much money has been wasted on repaints.

Plus the new livery is very smart and striking. Similar to how the Barbie livery was when first introduced back in the late 90s.

I 100% agree. Also route branding is a waste of time as the buses never stay on the routes they are designated to.

 

[Goldfish62]

I’m even okay with not having local fleet names on buses. It would allow buses to be cascaded throughout the network effortlessly without the constant need for repaints.

You don't need to repaint a bus to change local names!

And repaints will be still be required for transfers involving franchised areas, Leicester and Solent.

Repaints are a very tiny part of the cost of operating a bus and many transfers are in a condition that repainting is due anyway. For example, the paintwork on the recently transferred B9s from Norwich to Cornwall is very scruffy.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You don't need to repaint a bus to change local names!

And repaints will be still be required for transfers involving franchised areas, Leicester and Solent.

Repaints are a very tiny part of the cost of operating a bus and many transfers are in a condition that repainting is due anyway. For example, the paintwork on the recently transferred B9s from Norwich to Cornwall is very scruffy.

Very true though perhaps it's a reflection on the poster being in Scotland (where buses are repainted more often) so the frequency/cost argument is perhaps more of a concern. I'm not certain if those B9s that came from Norwich have seen a paintbrush since delivery in 2011.

I haven't seen any repaints yet, only the new deliveries into York. I quite like the livery; I don't think anyone can deny it will make transferring vehicles between fleets easier though it is a little sad not to see some local reference. However, the fact is that the livery isn't really the point - as Stagecoach has proven, you can have a national livery/image and a standard vehicle spec etc and be successful. It's more about empowering local managers with the ability to influence operations on the ground that dictates the success. For First, the reorganisation has removed chunks of management and it's that which has the biggest negative impact.

 

[cactustwirly]

Very true though perhaps it's a reflection on the poster being in Scotland (where buses are repainted more often) so the frequency/cost argument is perhaps more of a concern. I'm not certain if those B9s that came from Norwich have seen a paintbrush since delivery in 2011.

I haven't seen any repaints yet, only the new deliveries into York. I quite like the livery; I don't think anyone can deny it will make transferring vehicles between fleets easier though it is a little sad not to see some local reference. However, the fact is that the livery isn't really the point - as Stagecoach has proven, you can have a national livery/image and a standard vehicle spec etc and be successful. It's more about empowering local managers with the ability to influence operations on the ground that dictates the success. For First, the reorganisation has removed chunks of management and it's that which has the biggest negative impact.

Bit of a 180 from recent policy of Local liveries, like Sheffield, Bristol, Berkshire etc

 

[Goldfish62]

Very true though perhaps it's a reflection on the poster being in Scotland (where buses are repainted more often) so the frequency/cost argument is perhaps more of a concern. I'm not certain if those B9s that came from Norwich have seen a paintbrush since delivery in 2011.

I haven't seen any repaints yet, only the new deliveries into York. I quite like the livery; I don't think anyone can deny it will make transferring vehicles between fleets easier though it is a little sad not to see some local reference. However, the fact is that the livery isn't really the point - as Stagecoach has proven, you can have a national livery/image and a standard vehicle spec etc and be successful. It's more about empowering local managers with the ability to influence operations on the ground that dictates the success. For First, the reorganisation has removed chunks of management and it's that which has the biggest negative impact.

Can't disagree with any of that.

I see it as the standardisation of livery being a reflection of the new centralised management structure and removal of local autonomy.

Incidentally, the electrics do have local names, which makes the lack of them on diesels to be all the more strange. And of course Stagecoach do still have some targeted local branding in places, eg Coastliner.

On a positive note the new corporate livery is by far the best that First has produced and is also practical. It's certainly much better than the current offerings from Stagecoach and Arriva.

 

[buslad1988]

Incidentally, the electrics do have local names, which makes the lack of them on diesels to be all the more strange.

That’s what I find strange; hence why originally most people thought that the livery was only for electric fleets.

Local branding/liveries clearly worked for them in certain areas. Yes re-introduce a standard national livery but why not add small local fleet names located near the ‘First’ logo - like was originally done in early Barbie days.

Using the word ‘Bus’ after First I also find pointless - everyone knows it’s a bus! In most localities the First name and logo have been around for decades anyway. In fact the First logo itself is almost 30 years old now - hard to believe it’s stood the test of time!

 

[Goldfish62]

That’s what I find strange; hence why originally most people thought that the livery was only for electric fleets.

Local branding/liveries clearly worked for them in certain areas. Yes re-introduce a standard national livery but why not add small local fleet names located near the ‘First’ logo - like was originally done in early Barbie days.

Using the word ‘Bus’ after First I also find pointless - everyone knows it’s a bus! In most localities the First name and logo have been around for decades anyway. In fact the First logo itself is almost 30 years old now - hard to believe it’s stood the test of time!

For me the biggest issue is that First is not a name that is held in high regard yet it's now plastered in the largest ever lettering on the side of buses.

That aside, the grey above the door seems ideal for placement of a local name.

 

[Russel]

Away from the one corporate livery vs local livery debate, I do think the new purple livery looks quite nice, decent colours and it's also smart and simple.

Big turnaround by first, considering they mess they were in, in the early 2010's.

 

[-Colly405-]

Using the word ‘Bus’ after First I also find pointless - everyone knows it’s a bus! In most localities the First name and logo have been around for decades anyway. In fact the First logo itself is almost 30 years old now - hard to believe it’s stood the test of time!

They were trialling an updated logo with the Customer Panel about 6-9 months ago...

 

[sk688]

Without turning this into a political thread it is interesting that Barbie livery overlaps with the last labour government, Olympia with the Tory gov and now the new corporate livery and a new government

 

[Goldfish62]

Potteries haven't yet either - they've been busy repainting for others at their Adderley Green paintshop.

Just seen a photo of the first Potteries bus done. An E200MMC.

 

[DD12]

Yes!

I agree !! (I think the new livery will look appalling by the time it's been on a vehicle for two years, with the gloss gone and ingrained dirt).

 

[JumpinTrainz]

I agree !! (I think the new livery will look appalling by the time it's been on a vehicle for two years, with the gloss gone and ingrained dirt).

Nothing can be worse than the urban livery which is essentially all white with some lilac. In an area like Glasgow that has such harsh winters - perhaps not the best idea of colours.

I think the new livery is smart. Perhaps it’s the element of people not liking change.

 

[Russel]

I agree !! (I think the new livery will look appalling by the time it's been on a vehicle for two years, with the gloss gone and ingrained dirt).

I'd say that's standard for First and until recently it was, but Arriva and Stagecoach have been going for that look too over the last few years.

 

[M0LE]

The new livery is awful. It has nothing on Olympia. It’s a nice two tone but lacks anything at the back. It’s just a way of saving money but at the cost of all the beautiful First liveries they have now.
Shame to lose them and again will cost money to respray them all.
At least it’s not as bad as the atrocious Stagecoach liveries that aren’t even the same in each depot.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The new livery is awful. It has nothing on Olympia. It’s a nice two tone but lacks anything at the back. It’s just a way of saving money but at the cost of all the beautiful First liveries they have now.
Shame to lose them and again will cost money to respray them all.
At least it’s not as bad as the atrocious Stagecoach liveries that aren’t even the same in each depot.

I don't really see how it saves money? The same volume of paint still has to be used to repaint each vehicle...

 

[stevenedin]

I don't really see how it saves money? The same volume of paint still has to be used to repaint each vehicle...

It saves money having to repaint every time the buses move between depots that have a different livery.

 

[Jordan Adam]

It saves money having to repaint every time the buses move between depots that have a different livery.

But the comparison was with Olympia which was the previous corporate livery used group wide.