First Group: General Discussion

[Goldfish62]

The individual First bus companies websites have been updated to the new colour scheme, but they are not using the controversial new logo. The bus that was carrying it for publicity has had it removed.

Buses of Somerset, Kernow among others gone. But the Solent logo has survived, in keeping with the local livery being retained.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Buses of Somerset, Kernow among others gone. But the Solent logo has survived, in keeping with the local livery being retained.

I wonder how Solent has managed to cling on? Has the brand seen a major turn around in usage?

 

[Goldfish62]

I wonder how Solent has managed to cling on? Has the brand seen a major turn around in usage?

I read somewhere that it was a condition of the (award winning) partnership with the council. Same as Leicester EVs being green.

 

[richw]

I wonder how Solent has managed to cling on? Has the brand seen a major turn around in usage?

Local brands will be retained if it’s part of a partnership or franchise

 

[Goldfish62]

Local brands will be retained if it’s part of a partnership or franchise

Looks like the Kernow brand is dropped despite the TfC partnership. Maybe the council wasn't too fussed about retaining it.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Looks like the Kernow brand is dropped despite the TfC partnership. Maybe the council wasn't too fussed about retaining it.

Well, it wasn't their brand and if they wanted anything, you'd think the TfC identity would be preferred.

I'm not certain about the Solent agreement (and perhaps the lack of Stagecoach vehicles in it would be different if they had new electrics?) but Leicester is definitely a pre-requisite for new electric vehicles with First, Arriva, Roberts and Centrebus vehicles all in variations with a common green base.

 

[richw]

Looks like the Kernow brand is dropped despite the TfC partnership. Maybe the council wasn't too fussed about retaining it.

Kernow isn’t the partnerships brand.

Transport for Cornwall is. It’s also why no repaints yet as they decide whether to go TfC red

 

[Goldfish62]

Kernow isn’t the partnerships brand.

Transport for Cornwall is. It’s also why no repaints yet as they decide whether to go TfC red

I'm very aware that TfC is the overall brand.

However, the individual operator names are still sub-brands that appear on publicity and promotional material.

I've assumed that repaints are not taking place because First have given up with Cornwall and are simply not bothering. Apart from Truro P&R of course.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm very aware that TfC is the overall brand.

However, the individual operator names are still sub-brands that appear on publicity and promotional material.

I've assumed that repaints are not taking place because First have given up with Cornwall and are simply not bothering. Apart from Truro P&R of course.

I'd imagine that the sub-brands will be dealt with in due course.

As for repaints not taking place... There's none in West of England (because WestLink green will be adopted), Wales (except for a few that had to be repainted out of Bee Network yellow), Worcester, Berkshire, Wessex.

Even in West Yorkshire, it's patchy with Halifax and Huddersfield repainting but just two done in Leeds. It's really Glasgow and Essex that are the only ones that are really getting through them.

 

[Leyland Bus]

I'd imagine that the sub-brands will be dealt with in due course.

As for repaints not taking place... There's none in West of England (because WestLink green will be adopted), Wales (except for a few that had to be repainted out of Bee Network yellow), Worcester, Berkshire, Wessex.

Even in West Yorkshire, it's patchy with Halifax and Huddersfield repainting but just two done in Leeds. It's really Glasgow and Essex that are the only ones that are really getting through them.

Has Leeds had spray booths fitted yet or are they still brushing?

 

[Sealink]

Here in Dorset we have a lovely fleet of Jurassic Coaster buses, they look really smart. Wonder if they will be repainted?

SN65ZDA

first 33965 at weymouth

flic.kr

No firm does "guff" quite as well as FirstBus

First are the definition of right hand not knowing what left hand is doing. I despair of our local company, First Wessex.

They do things like send an email shot for an event that occurs on a Sunday, encouraging you to use a service which is Monday to Saturday only.
Or an event that starts AFTER their last bus leaves the town and on and on...

 

[Leyland Bus]

Here in Dorset we have a lovely fleet of Jurassic Coaster buses, they look really smart. Wonder if they will be repainted?

SN65ZDA

first 33965 at weymouth

flic.kr

First are the definition of right hand not knowing what left hand is doing. I despair of our local company, First Wessex.

They do things like send an email shot for an event that occurs on a Sunday, encouraging you to use a service which is Monday to Saturday only.
Or an event that starts AFTER their last bus leaves the town and on and on...

I thought things might improve somewhat when they had the board clear out but it seems to be same old, same old on ground level...

 

[Goldfish62]

I'd imagine that the sub-brands will be dealt with in due course.

As for repaints not taking place... There's none in West of England (because WestLink green will be adopted), Wales (except for a few that had to be repainted out of Bee Network yellow), Worcester, Berkshire, Wessex.

Even in West Yorkshire, it's patchy with Halifax and Huddersfield repainting but just two done in Leeds. It's really Glasgow and Essex that are the only ones that are really getting through them.

Indeed, but with Cornwall it's a bit extreme. By early next year there won't have been any repaints for two years, and there's much of the fleet that is well overdue. Not sure why it's taking so long to decide whether to the buses TfC red or not. Perhaps First want to raid the council's BSIP pot to fund repaints and that's the sticking point. That's pure speculation on my part.

Interesting point about Berkshire. I thought Heathrow would insist on retention of the Beeline livery, which incorporates elements of Heathrow branding. The airport does a lot to prop up First's Berkshire operations.

 

[vla50]

Is there any update on when the B7s will finally nod off? Am considering a trip to Essex or Cornwall to sample them, but not sure given they are so small in number now

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is there any update on when the B7s will finally nod off? Am considering a trip to Essex or Cornwall to sample them, but not sure given they are so small in number now

Essex ones are believed to be imminent. Kernow less so.

However, any that have major unit failures won’t be repaired.

 

[vla50]

Essex ones are believed to be imminent. Kernow less so.

However, any that have major unit failures won’t be repaired.

Interesting re Essex ones - saw somewhere that the converted Streetdecks didn’t perform well on the BHX5 (Amazon) and so were considering other options ahead of new year. Regardless, there is one E400 that usually does a few duties on the 14A daily and I believe one of the 5 B7s is covering for one of the B9s on loan to Norwich - so I imagine providing those move to Essex they should be able to see off 2 of the 5 which I believe have MOTs which expire imminently.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Interesting re Essex ones - saw somewhere that the converted Streetdecks didn’t perform well on the BHX5 (Amazon) and so were considering other options ahead of new year. Regardless, there is one E400 that usually does a few duties on the 14A daily and I believe one of the 5 B7s is covering for one of the B9s on loan to Norwich - so I imagine providing those move to Essex they should be able to see off 2 of the 5 which I believe have MOTs which expire imminently.

BHX5 - isn’t that Leicester rather than Essex?

 

[vla50]

BHX5 - isn’t that Leicester rather than Essex?

Yes - that’s where the E400s which are due to replace the remaining Essex B7s are coming from.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes - that’s where the E400s which are due to replace the remaining Essex B7s are coming from.

Sorry - that wasn’t exactly clear as to the connection

I doubt they’ll last much longer in any case in Essex. Kernow - a little longer.

 

[Callum15632]

Interesting re Essex ones - saw somewhere that the converted Streetdecks didn’t perform well on the BHX5 (Amazon) and so were considering other options ahead of new year. Regardless, there is one E400 that usually does a few duties on the 14A daily and I believe one of the 5 B7s is covering for one of the B9s on loan to Norwich - so I imagine providing those move to Essex they should be able to see off 2 of the 5 which I believe have MOTs which expire imminently.

Those B9TL Geminis that are on loan to Norwich will be moving to Cornwall after the loan period ends not Essex.

 

[vla50]

Those B9TL Geminis that are on loan to Norwich will be moving to Cornwall after the loan period ends not Essex.

There's an SN57 in Norwich at the moment. I anticipate that'll move back to see off one of the B7s.
There's only 3 B9TLs in Norwich bound for Cornwall - I do wonder where the rest will come from.

 

[Andyh82]

Anecdotally yes, more so than Stagecoach or Arriva I'd say. And it's not just in respect of buses. Very much rail as well.

I doubt this is the case. Most regular people won’t be using more than one of the big bus groups regularly to have an opinion, especially comparing them fairly (if they use First to go to work in rush hour traffic 5 days a week in the rain and someone else whilst they are on holiday in the summer it wouldn’t be a fair comparison)

Plus pretty much all bus operators have a poor reputation because regardless of any external factors, if a bus is late it’s seen as 100% the fault of the operator

 

[Volvodart]

Agreement to acquire RATP London

Agreement to acquire RATP London

Released : 10.12.2024

FIRSTGROUP PLC
agreement to acquire bus operator RATP London

FirstGroup plc (the `Group') is pleased to announce that it has signed an agreement to acquire RATP Dev Transit London Limited and its subsidiaries (`RATP London') from RATP Développement SA (`RATP Dev') for an enterprise value of £90 million (the `Acquisition').

The Acquisition will see the Group enter the London bus market with a strong position and will further grow and diversify the Group's revenue. RATP London is one of the principal bus operators in the capital, with a c.12% market share, comprising:

• 10 depots across Central and West London (four owned and six leased);
• a fleet of c.1,000 buses of which a third are fully electric;
• c.3,700 employees over 80% of whom are drivers;
• c.90 Transport for London (`TfL') route contracts, typically of seven-year term; (weighted average remaining contract life of 3.3 years)
• revenues of £271m for the year ended 31 December 2023; and
• an experienced management team with a proven track record of developing and implementing a comprehensive turnaround plan that includes enhanced bid discipline and improved operational and cost performance

The enterprise value is underpinned by c.£100m of physical assets including freehold property of c.£50m.
The Acquisition will be financed with £45 million from the Group's existing cash reserves and the assumption of RATP London's asset backed vehicle finances leases (c.£45m).
Following completion of the Acquisition, the Group anticipates:

• the Acquisition will be broadly earnings neutral in FY 2025 and FY 2026; onerous contract provisions totalling c.£40-50m will be utilised over several years;
• as the route contract portfolio evolves over the next five years, annual revenues are expected to grow to £300-350m, with operating margins in line with historical London levels of c.6-7%;
• looking ahead, in addition to the measures included in the current turnaround plan, the Group has identified a number of potential synergies that could further enhance profitability;
• operating cash outflows of c. £30m, after bus operating lease payments and capex, in the first two years of ownership, following which the business is expected to be operating cash positive from FY 2027 onwards;
• RATP London's current management team will transfer with the business and are expected to be retained post-acquisition.

The Acquisition is subject to French government approval (in its capacity as the ultimate owner of the business) and is conditional on TfL consent to the change of control. The Group anticipates completion of the Acquisition in H1 Calendar Year 2025.

Graham Sutherland, FirstGroup Chief Executive Officer said:

"This is a significant acquisition for the Group that will diversify our portfolio and materially grow our earnings in the medium term. It allows us to enter the London bus market at scale and will also bolster our credentials as we participate in future franchising opportunities across the UK.



"We look forward to continuing to build on our relationship with TfL and welcoming RATP London's employees into the Group, to continue the transformation of the business and to capitalise on the growth potential in the London market."

 

[transportphoto]

When I worked at first I was told 97% of complaints were unfounded and/or fictitious when reviewed on cctv and tracking data. They got an average of between 1-2 complaints a day, of which if 97% are unfounded means they’re doing a good job really.

Which OpCo did you work for? I’d suggest there a lot more than one or two complaints per day. Customer Services deal with and file an awful lot without the need to open to depot, that’s excluding those dealt with on the phone/social media which do not get logged in the customer contact system.

 

[Goldfish62]

Agreement to acquire RATP London

Agreement to acquire RATP London

Wow!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

deleted

 

[Bungle965]

Apologies, made a slight hash of it but discussions regarding the takeover of RATP by First can be found here :

FirstGroup Aquire RATP London

There is more information available in the presentation press release https://www.firstgroupplc.com/investors/reports-and-presentations.aspx Operational and financial overview RATP London was formed through the consolidation of London United, London Sovereign and London Transit bus...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[vla50]

Will the E400 City’s be moving from Glasgow to Weymouth?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Will the E400 City’s be moving from Glasgow to Weymouth?

Why? What has been said?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Why? What has been said?

I think this is probably related to the news they are not going to Dublin anymore (that would make far too much sense to send Airport spec vehicles onto an Airport service) and the Jurassic Coaster deckers apparently are.