First Group order AT300 for East Coast open access operation

[Failed Unit]

Depending on whether it’s a last mile battery or a full blown hybrid, Firstgroups thinking is probably that a) the mantaince costs will be significantly reduced or b) these could effectively act as prototypes for modifications to rest of the groups 802 fleet.

If the route via Lincoln is needed for engineering work, I wonder if they could work in multiple with HTs to save paths and the HT unit could drag the east coast one if the battery fails. Put 90 mins on battery on an untaxing route should be possible.

 

[BR67]

https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/1108697463546892288

According to Richard Clinnick on Twitter:


Wonder what the range will be on battery power?

Why do you think the battery will be for traction? No other AT300 has a traction battery, and if this one did, it would be a bi-mode. It hasn't been announced as a bi-mode.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why do you think the battery will be for traction? No other AT300 has a traction battery, and if this one did, it would be a bi-mode. It hasn't been announced as a bi-mode.

The GWML "electric only" 80x were going to have a single power pack for both hotel power in case of disruption but also for "last mile" low-speed moves, e.g. to avoid stranding in case of power failure. While these were converted to "proper" bi-modes (do the ECML ones have it?) this seems to be the same concept. Those too were not sold as "bi-modes".

 

[supervc-10]

Isn't the battery there more as a 'limp home' solution?

 

[broadgage]

But do we know how many batteries are to be fitted ?
Will it be a single battery, somewhat comparable to the single diesel engine to the nominally electric IETs, or will it be three such batteries, a bit like the 5 car bi-mode IETs in use on GWR.

A single battery would only appear suitable for limping to the next station when the wires come down, or for other limited low speed movements. And of course for hotel power when stranded.
3 batteries would give a lot more potential and should permit of line speed operation for significant distances in case of diversions etc.

As the intended route is electrified throughout, I doubt that multiple batteries are going to be fitted.

IMHO, ALL new electric trains should be equipped with either a battery or a diesel engine for when the wires come down.

 

[ainsworth74]

do the ECML ones have it?

LNER have the engine fitted to the EMU versions. But I'm informed that the performance is utterly dreadful as is the range. So it'll be useful to keep hotel services going but you're not moving very far and certainly not very quickly on it...

 

[jimm]

Not a huge number on premium express trains.

Which wasn't what you said, was it?

But if you do want an example of use on premium express trains, then there are the Spanish Talgo 250 Duals, and French Intercites services (ie non-TGV long-distance workings) are being switched to bi-mode operation with the Alstom Coradia Polyvalent

 

[northernbelle]

LNER have the engine fitted to the EMU versions. But I'm informed that the performance is utterly dreadful as is the range. So it'll be useful to keep hotel services going but you're not moving very far and certainly not very quickly on it...

It's not intended to be used to move an 801 except in an emergency - I.e. to the nearest platform to detrain. Also permits shunting on depot and sidings during electrical isolations.

 

[tbtc]

Good to see battery operation take another step forward - whilst I'm no huge fan of this Open Access service (and, in all honesty, not a huge fan of any Open Access service), it's positive to see something new from rolling stock manufacturers. Maybe this small fleet will be a good test bed to assess what's feasible for future orders (e.g. replacing 220/221/222s on other franchises).

One problem with the Voyagers was that they were a big fleet of brand new trains being ordered at once, rather than trains which gradually evolved from previous units (e.g. the 170s should work well because you could see the 168s working) or trains that were ordered after learning from previous mistakes (e.g. the way BR tested the various 82s and 83s before agreeing on a big order of reliable trains like the 86s).

230s should show the feasibility of battery operation at low speeds, but these new trains might be a good test bed for the technology applying in other circumstances (albeit I'm obviously not expecting them all the way from London to Edinburgh at 125mph on batteries!).

It's not often we see IC225 train running via Sunderland, Hartlepool and Northallerton, although this happened over a weekend about 13 months ago - with a Class 67 hauling the electric set. We don't often see a Virgin/LNER HST either, although the LNER 2200 service from Kings Cross is running this route tonight. Mass cancellations and/or buses is the norm.

There hasn't been an 800 or 802 through Hartlepool yet, although I think they've run Newcastle to Sunderland and back. It will be interesting to hear the sound effects on the tight curves.

Whilst I'm all for bi-modes and diversions, if the route through Durham is closed then there's certainly an argument that the line through Sunderland is already fairly busy (five Metros, one Northern Rail service and random freight) each hour to accommodate everything running via Durham (two or three LNERs, two TPEs, two XCs, one Northern service via Stillington) to find room for five coach Open Access services.

By all means build future-proofed trains, and I like the idea of battery/electric hybrid trains, I like the idea of being able to cope with diversions, but I think that, in the event of ECML services diverted through Sunderland then a five coach Open Access train would probably be at the bottom of the queue for which ones I'd try to path on that route (given conflicts with other services etc).

 

[Chris125]

For those saying it looks like a 395, it doesn't... The CGI renders just don't show the normal yellow front, it's one that curves at the top, like on a Javelin. Other than that it's obviously the 80x design.

The promotional images do show a 395-type unit but it seems that's just down to the lazy re-use of old Hitachi renders.

 

[Doomotron]

The promotional images do show a 395-type unit but it seems that's just down to the lazy re-use of old Hitachi renders.

No. The lights are to the side of the yellow, like on an IET. On the Javelins they are inside the yellow, directly underneath the window. However, the front does seem very 395-like after another look. It's probably just a basic render showing *an* AT300.

 

[rdlover777]

The promotional images do show a 395-type unit but it seems that's just down to the lazy re-use of old Hitachi renders.

that might just be because Hitachi seem to love the 395, go on there website and its mostly dedicated to the 395

 

[Chris125]

No. The lights are to the side of the yellow, like on an IET. On the Javelins they are inside the yellow, directly underneath the window. However, the front does seem very 395-like after another look. It's probably just a basic render showing *an* AT300.

That's what I meant by 395-type unit, there's a few detail differences perhaps due to it's age but the overall design is far more 395 than 800.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Has there ever been an "artist's impression" of a new unit that DOES look much like the finished product?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Has there ever been an "artist's impression" of a new unit that DOES look much like the finished product?

Probably not, but typically artist's impressions are created before the unit in question exists. It wouldn't be in any way difficult to have taken a photo of a white-liveried 5-car 800 and put First's colours onto that - done.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Probably not, but typically artist's impressions are created before the unit in question exists. It wouldn't be in any way difficult to have taken a photo of a white-liveried 5-car 800 and put First's colours onto that - done.

That's my point though- there's a lot of discussion about whether these units will be an 800-alike or a 395-alike... but the 395 design is getting on for a decade old, so I'd be surprised if anything being designed now would be based on that template. Especially as the intended route won't need 20m carriages.

 

[Rick1984]

Is a Javelin quite spacious inside (width wise) if they're only 20m carriages?

 

[trebor79]

I thought it felt a little claustrophobic when I travelled on one. It was a very quiet service, just me in the coach but it didn't feel spacious.

 

[Doomotron]

Is a Javelin quite spacious inside (width wise) if they're only 20m carriages?

Yes, mostly, unless you're sitting around the doors where there's no armrests or windows.

 

[bastien]

Not this hoary old myth yet again. SNCF operates hundreds of bi-mode passenger units and there are growing numbers of electric locomotives with last-mile diesel engines or full-blown bi-mode locos operating all over Europe

On the other hand, I've never seen an ICE or TGV being dragged by a diesel loco.

 

[Non Multi]

On the other hand, I've never seen an ICE or TGV being dragged by a diesel loco.

You have now: https://www.flickr.com/photos/cfl1969/30394093318/

 

[hexagon789]

Why do you think the battery will be for traction? No other AT300 has a traction battery, and if this one did, it would be a bi-mode. It hasn't been announced as a bi-mode.

It isn't, purely for hotel supply. Now to try and remember where I read that!

 

[Japan0913]

They will be electric like LNER’s Class801 but unlike them they will be fitted with batteries in case of any failures with the wires.

Since not the IEP of government, It may become a "Class 803"?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Whether it's a Government order or not, the batteries make them technically different so they should, in my opinion, get a new class number and I agree with you that 803 is the logical one. But it wouldn't be the end of the world if they took the next sub class within 801 would it?

 

[Japan0913]

the end of the world if they took the next sub class within 801 would it?

”the end of the world”　？？？　Why?

 

[Japan0913]

It is because the "First Group" is the chose "Class801 system" choosing a Class397 price was cheap?

Maybe, AT-300 is might be cheaper than other companies

 

[43096]

Whether it's a Government order or not, the batteries make them technically different so they should, in my opinion, get a new class number and I agree with you that 803 is the logical one. But it wouldn't be the end of the world if they took the next sub class within 801 would it?

New class numbers for major differences? Like MTU HSTs, 37/9s, 47901, rebuilt 73s....

There is no consistency to numbering.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

”the end of the world”　？？？　Why?

If you are going to quote me, please quote me in a way which doesn't change the meaning of what I said into the opposite of what I said.

But it wouldn't be the end of the world if they took the next sub class within 801 would it?

 

[hexagon789]

They will be electric like LNER’s Class801 but unlike them they will be fitted with batteries in case of any failures with the wires.

But only for hotel power; they cannot provide traction power to move the train.

 

[hexagon789]

Whether it's a Government order or not, the batteries make them technically different so they should, in my opinion, get a new class number and I agree with you that 803 is the logical one. But it wouldn't be the end of the world if they took the next sub class within 801 would it?

I would suggest that makes more sense than a new class altogether.