Do First have a view on these services? It seems to me that in the last few years there has been some investment, but only after the service started screaming out for double decks, particularly on morning and evening services. This was then 'upgraded' using the 'Dynamo' buses that had been with First Leeds for 18/24 months before.The recent investment in the X84, X6, and other such services across the U.K. Leaves me wondering what the difference is between those services and the Wetherby services? Granted, the service runs at less frequent intervals, but the distance and loading are about the same I'd say. I'm certain there are other such services around the U.K., but living close to Wetherby I'm only really able to comment on those 'X' services as opposed to any other.
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First Leeds' view of X98/99 compared to other 'X' services
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NorthernSpirit
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I suppose the X98/X99 could be seen as a basic X service, where as the X6 and the X84 could be seen as premium services - especially the X6 which links Leeds and Bradford.
Stan Drews
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It should do well, as Wetherby isn't on the rail network. The 36 seems to do very well from (similarly well heeled) Harrogate/Ripon, and that has to compete with a rail alternative.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Might it just be next in line for an upgrade. Not everything can be done at once.
Mind you, got to consider that the town itself only has a population of 12k. It ain't large (though I like it)
Mind you, got to consider that the town itself only has a population of 12k. It ain't large (though I like it)
anti-pacer
Established Member
I used to catch this bus to Wetherby when I briefly worked there in 2014. It was always busy leaving Leeds to the point of being full after Oakwood.
Mind you, a third of the passengers got off at N Power in Shadwell, but what surprised me is how many kids from inner-city Leeds travel to Wetherby High School. I believe there are also school buses that serve the school from various parts of Leeds, despite Leeds having lots of high schools.
I can't comment on off-peak loadings on this route, but don't forget there is the 770/771 services also providing a combined half-hourly service between Leeds and Wetherby, albeit a longer route.
I would like to see an express route on the Aire Valley corridor. Yes the 760 has been speeded up between Keighley and Saltaire by using the by-pass before and after its Bingley call, but some faster running between Shipley and Leeds wouldn't go amiss.
How about, in addition to the 760, an hourly limited stop service that follows the same route between Keighley and Rodley roundabout, then via the Ring Road and A647 non-stop to Leeds city centre?
Mind you, a third of the passengers got off at N Power in Shadwell, but what surprised me is how many kids from inner-city Leeds travel to Wetherby High School. I believe there are also school buses that serve the school from various parts of Leeds, despite Leeds having lots of high schools.
I can't comment on off-peak loadings on this route, but don't forget there is the 770/771 services also providing a combined half-hourly service between Leeds and Wetherby, albeit a longer route.
I would like to see an express route on the Aire Valley corridor. Yes the 760 has been speeded up between Keighley and Saltaire by using the by-pass before and after its Bingley call, but some faster running between Shipley and Leeds wouldn't go amiss.
How about, in addition to the 760, an hourly limited stop service that follows the same route between Keighley and Rodley roundabout, then via the Ring Road and A647 non-stop to Leeds city centre?
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I can't see that being much faster. The road from Dawson's Corner to Rodley roundabout is jammed in the peak hour. The area needs a new corridor creating.
First could do with creating more X services in the suburbs. A lot of the buses wander all over the place. The 16 is a classic example of this.
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anti-pacer
Established Member
Would it be faster to route such a proposal down Woodhall Road from Calverley to the A647?
It would still be stuck in the jam leading up to Dawsons Corner and then the smaller leading into the left turn back on to its original route.
anti-pacer
Established Member
Why would it turn left at Dawson's Corner? Under my proposals it would turn right onto the A647 Ring Road/Pudsey By-Pass.
Sorry I missed a few words and it depends which way you are going (I misread your A647 as A657). Heading towards Leeds is probably not too difficult although I do not tend to be heading towards Leeds from Calverley on a regular basis in the peak.
Heading away from Leeds, a bus will hit traffic as it approaches Dawsons Corner turning left. It will also hit a shorter jam coming off Woodhall Road (turning left) with a lot of variability due to the weight of traffic using the A657.
Heading away from Leeds, a bus will hit traffic as it approaches Dawsons Corner turning left. It will also hit a shorter jam coming off Woodhall Road (turning left) with a lot of variability due to the weight of traffic using the A657.
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anti-pacer
Established Member
Buses will always get stuck in peak hour traffic on any main road in Leeds, but I think a bus running non-stop from Leeds city centre to Rodley, whichever way it runs would save a fair bit of time on what is an already long journey.
12k doesn't sound like much but when you consider that the only intensive public transport link the town has is the X98/X99 the service has a very poor journey time to Leeds. Especially as very little else seems to run in Wetherby early mornings, late nights and Sundays. It strikes me that at peak times the bus needs to run with fewer stops. Can First not work with Leeds City Council or WYCA to improve the A58 for the service similarly to what happened with the A65?
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Yes but 12k isn't many people especially when a) Harrogate is also a significant traffic objective and b) there's not so many villages en route. That said, it might be that the X84 or X6 were the priority and this may be next in line?
There are many villages on the way. Collingham, Bardsey, East Keswick, Dcarcroft, Redhall, Roundhay. Not to mention that it's faster from Oakwood Clock than the 12 or 13 into Leeds.
Peak services are still very busy, sometimes standing even on double decks. Throughout the day the number of passengers varies. It it's at least half full each journey to and from.
There is £173.5m available to support schemes such as this.
There is?
Who would use it? Those who want fast (and turn up and go) use the 4-6tph train service between Shipley and Leeds.
Those who want cheaper get the bus. An express would have to attract a lot of new passengers to be worth running.
anti-pacer
Established Member
People who would prefer the bus over the train, but to get them there faster. This has already happened on the 760 route by running fast between Keighley and Crossflatts, and again from Bingley town centre to Nab Wood. These buses seem well loaded and would take pressure off some of the Airedale Line trains if they had more of an express route on one of its journeys each hour (maybe an extra journey).
Not everyone wants to use a train. Don't forget how far the bus and rail stations are in Leeds. What about people connecting to other buses in Leeds, or National Express/Megabus?
Express buses operate to and from Nottingham and Derby from outlying places. I won't include the very successful Red Arrow services as they are inter-city so have a bigger population to serve, and Derby station is not exactly central, but Long Eaton and Bingham have both had express services to Nottingham. Both towns, especially Long Eaton are reasonably well served by rail.
Buses in West Yorkshire are slow on the whole, but look at the X6. A faster bus between Leeds and Bradford, despite 6 trains an hour between the two. Generally well loaded. We need more! Wakefield to Leeds on the 110 is always busy, despite 8 trains an hour taking as little as 13 mins. Wakefield could definitely do with a non-stop bus to Leeds running via the A650/M1/M621. Places like Halifax and Huddersfield could do with similar.
With proper branding and marketing, express services in West Yorkshire could be a commercial success. Like I said, not everyone wants train travel, especially in its current state up here (yes, it will improve). The 36 to Harrogate/Ripon, another success story. I don't think passengers from the far flung corners of West Yorkshire would object to faster bus services.
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backontrack
Established Member
Don't forget that the 770 also runs bi-hourly, connecting Harrogate and Wetherby with Bramham, Thorner and Leeds.
anti-pacer
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I mentioned this earlier on in the thread.
It would be interesting to know how well used this service is for Wetherby to Leeds journeys.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Given that the departure times are relatively similar yet the X98/99 is 15 minutes quicker, most passengers will doubtless not bother with the long route.
There are very few, if any, who travel through on the 770 from Wetherbyto Leeds. When I've met friends in Bramham and Yhorber I've always been pushed to go for the X98/99 by the H&D bus drivers. It's not even that it's a scenic journey, it just feels a lot slower than the service First offers.
tbtc
Veteran Member
One area I thought would have worked for a "fast" bus would have been the Yeadon area (a decent catchment area between the nations at Horsforth and Guiseley) but First withdrew the X33.
With the exception of the Stunningly by-pass, First haven't seemed too bothered about "fast" buses in other areas of Leeds. The 51/52 have always run on a short section of M621 towards Morley but there's never been a proper fast service on that corridor. There's an express up the Scott Hall Road "busway". But they've not offered much "fast", considering that the PTE/ Council want something faster than a "common or garden" bus (whether that be a tram, a trolleybus...).
The M62 from Halifax to Leeds and the White Rose finished many years ago (in the Cursed Folderline days...), the X33 from Bradford to Dewsbury/ Wakefield etc finished too. Bradford is going to get a relatively fast direct train service to Wakefield/ Meadowhall/ Sheffield. I don't know what the biggest unserved market for a fast bus would be (other than one that has already "failed").
First have tried all sorts of fast buses, but rarely with much promotion. The X36/X37 used to run up to 4 times an hour between Halifax and Huddersfield but was withdrawn in favour of more slow buses.
The oddest may have been the 2-hourly extension to the 561 Halifax - Rishworth service that ran all stops on that route then non-stop to the Trafford Centre, being withdrawn just before most people would start Christmas shopping.
The X08 hourly Halifax to Leeds didn't last long and First then slowed the 508 down even more by rerouting it via Kirkstall.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I'm not surprised. As a simple illustration....
You rock on up at 11:00 in the beating heart of Wetherby. Options are:
- 770 11:08 to Leeds arriving 12:15 OR
- X98 11:17 to Leeds arriving 12:02
anti-pacer
Established Member
Seems an odd situation. Nottingham as I mentioned earlier were big on express buses, although some have since stopped operating. Long Eaton Xpress, Bingham Xpress, Red Arrow to name a a few. Derby has a fair few express buses, even from places like Spondon and Borrowash, which aren't far from the city centre. OK, Derby rail station is some distance out compared to its bus station.
Back to this area you're looking at 40 mins from Halifax to Leeds by train, so surely a bus operating via the M62 could be a viable alternative. Or do we just like slow buses up here?
Nottingham City Council have stopped subsidising concessionary travel on the Nottingham to Derby Red Arrow for passengers boarding in Nottingham. They say as it is a limited stop express service it is no longer classed as a local bus service. Interestingly concessionary pass holders can still travel free in the other direction from Derby to Nottingham but Derby Coty Council are now discussing removing the concessionary fares for card holders boarding in Derby too. Derby City Council are also considering doing the same on the X38 between Derby and Burton on Trent. Could this happen in West Yorkshire and other parts of the country on limited stop express services?
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anti-pacer
Established Member
Yes I've heard this, and I think OAP patronage between the two cities has increased on both the 'i4' and 'i5' Trent Barton services, and also Your Bus 'Y5' (I think) as a result.
Considering there is about 15 miles between them, Nottingham and Derby enjoy some very frequent connecting bus services. The flagship Red Arrow service runs every 10 minutes and it's always busy. It's definitely the fastest mode of public transport between the two city centres.
Back to West Yorkshire, I don't see why First don't make the 508 from Halifax to Leeds non-stop via the A647 after Gallows Corner. Does it need to operate via Stanningley given the frequency of the 72?
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