First Potteries cease printing timetables

[Baxenden Bank]

:roll:

Awesome.

First in the Potteries, introducing their second set of widespread timetable changes THIS YEAR, are declining to provide printed timetables this time around. For some routes, they didn't provide any first time around either. Instead the public are to be given an A4 crib sheet, which they can use to hand amend their previous version of the timetable.

Then again, there will be a third set of changes in March and a further revision in April is rumoured.

That's the way to retain existing and attract new customers, constantly change the times and routes so no-one knows when they are coming or going.

Go for it First!

Drive your business into the ground!

 

[THarris123]

:roll:

Awesome.

First in the Potteries, introducing their second set of widespread timetable changes THIS YEAR, are declining to provide printed timetables this time around. For some routes, they didn't provide any first time around either. Instead the public are to be given an A4 crib sheet, which they can use to hand amend their previous version of the timetable.

Then again, there will be a third set of changes in March and a further revision in April is rumoured.

That's the way to retain existing and attract new customers, constantly change the times and routes so no-one knows when they are coming or going.

Go for it First!

Drive your business into the ground!

In all fairness, at least they're looking to improve services and keep up with ongoing issue. It's the same in the west and everywhere else in the country and it's not just First changing Timetables either. But I do agree that not providing printed timetables is a stupid idea - it'll probably cost them more than printing them.

 

[ChrisPJ]

Slow death of a company. Painful to watch.

But what's the endgame? Northampton style close down or transfer of premises and staff to someone who can build the business back up like Plymouth?

Meanwhile the passengers suffer and many will stop using buses for good.

 

[the101]

I have said it before but an outright incompetent middle management and a hardcore of drivers that do exactly as they please with no fear of retribution is the heart of First Potteries' enormous problems. It cannot carry on the way it is. Bad decision after bad decision means that it has a couple of years left at best if current standards are maintained, then shut down/sell what's left and walk away as though nothing ever happened.

 

[overthewater]

Slow death of a company. Painful to watch.

But what's the endgame? Northampton style close down or transfer of premises and staff to someone who can build the business back up like Plymouth?

Meanwhile the passengers suffer and many will stop using buses for good.

Better not speculate

 

[daodao]

Of more significance is that First Potteries are scrapping many of their evening services every day of the week. This will leave much of the Stoke conurbation without any evening buses, as the city council do not provide any funding to support "socially necessary" bus services. Large parts of West Mercia (Cheshire/Shropshire/Staffordshire/Herefordshire) no longer have any evening (and in many areas Sunday) bus services at all. Examples include towns such as Market Drayton and Middlewich, which also don't have any rail services.

First Potteries have also undertaken significant route retrenchment in recent years especially on outer sections of their routes, e.g. they no longer provide the service between Leighton Hospital and Crewe town centre. Some of their latest cuts to evening services are also on the outer sections, e.g. Hanley-Meir retained on service 6/6A, but the extension to Meir Heath and Blythe Bridge withdrawn.

 

[crehld]

I've never understood First Potteries' approach. About a year ago they tried to muscle in on part of a route operated by D&G, the same one I use to work. In response about a month before the new First service was due to start D&G lowered their prices on the route. A single to work cost me £1.70 on D&G (£2.55 return)... or £2.50 (£4 return) on First Potteries. Guess which buses were full and which were empty? Over the nine months that First ran the route they did not alter prices to attract more custom. It's almost as if they went out of their way to make it fail!

The abolition of printed timetables means very little in the grand scheme of things. I've never been on a First Potteries bus that was within ten minutes of its timetabled time... and that says a lot given many of their routes operate a nominal ten minute frequency.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

In all fairness, at least they're looking to improve services and keep up with ongoing issue. It's the same in the west and everywhere else in the country and it's not just First changing Timetables either. But I do agree that not providing printed timetables is a stupid idea - it'll probably cost them more than printing them.

Improving services?

I think not.

Cut, cut and cut again. Down to a single bus, departing from the bus station, running round the block and back into the bus station. Then the question will still be 'what are we doing wrong, why aren't we carrying any passengers?'

Another 3 buses out of the off-peak daytime requirement this month. Evening services slashed, including my own after 1830. Given that two thirds of my travel is on those evening services it'll not help their revenue position!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Slow death of a company. Painful to watch.

But what's the endgame? Northampton style close down or transfer of premises and staff to someone who can build the business back up like Plymouth?

Meanwhile the passengers suffer and many will stop using buses for good.

More painful to suffer in person! At least I don't rely on the bus to get to/from work.

By the time anyone else steps up to the plate - be that a purchase, a distress purchase after administration, or growth through competition it will be too late - the market will have been destroyed. New style D & G are not a force to be reckoned with.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have said it before but an outright incompetent middle management and a hardcore of drivers that do exactly as they please with no fear of retribution is the heart of First Potteries' enormous problems. It cannot carry on the way it is. Bad decision after bad decision means that it has a couple of years left at best if current standards are maintained, then shut down/sell what's left and walk away as though nothing ever happened.

Apparently, we have a new 'wonder boy' in to sort things out!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've never understood First Potteries' approach. About a year ago they tried to muscle in on part of a route operated by D&G, the same one I use to work. In response about a month before the new First service was due to start D&G lowered their prices on the route. A single to work cost me £1.70 on D&G (£2.55 return)... or £2.50 (£4 return) on First Potteries. Guess which buses were full and which were empty? Over the nine months that First ran the route they did not alter prices to attract more custom. It's almost as if they went out of their way to make it fail!

The abolition of printed timetables means very little in the grand scheme of things. I've never been on a First Potteries bus that was within ten minutes of its timetabled time... and that says a lot given many of their routes operate a nominal ten minute frequency.

If you are referring to the D & G 85 / First 3 extension to Madeley. That was a tit-for-tat response to D & G commencing other competitive services. Those were mostly mysteriously sorted last year. A smoking gun of an anti-competition agreement if ever there was one.

I had the pleasure of waiting in Newcastle Bus Shelter (can't call it a bus station as it has no facilities, at all) the other day. The number 2 to Longton didn't turn up. Parallel and competitive D & G 'Orange One' took all the passengers, then the next 2 didn't turn up, D & G took all those passengers too. Boy do I regret buying a First annual pass - regardless of the 50% discount!

 

[overthewater]

Question has to be would needs to be done to turn the company around? Better still who needs to be sent in to overhaul the operations?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Of more significance is that First Potteries are scrapping many of their evening services every day of the week. This will leave much of the Stoke conurbation without any evening buses, as the city council no provide any funding to support "socially necessary" bus services. Large parts of West Mercia (Cheshire/Shropshire/Staffordshire/Herefordshire) no longer have any evening (and in many areas Sunday) bus services at all. Examples include towns such as Market Drayton and Middlewich, which also don't have any rail services.

First Potteries have also undertaken significant route retrenchment in recent years especially on outer sections of their routes, e.g. they no longer provide the service between Leighton Hospital and Crewe town centre. Some of their latest cuts to evening services are also on the outer sections, e.g. Hanley-Meir retained on service 6/6A, but the extension to Meir Heath and Blythe Bridge withdrawn.

Agreed on both points. I live on that outer section. Taking a positive view, I will save a fortune when I can no longer get to the pub!

Then again, many parts of the conurbation now have no daytime service either. Areas recently served every 20 minutes now have just three buses during the day! (Dresden).

It is appalling that the council consider it acceptable to completely disregard their role in supporting socially necessary services, then again it is becoming widespread. Lancashire propose to cease all supported services from April this year, yet will provide no details of what is commercial and what is presently supported to let people know what impact it will have on them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Question has to be would needs to be done to turn the company around? Better still who needs to be sent in to overhaul the operations?

I worry that 'the101' may well be right, although I hope not.

To my mind, we need long term, competent, managers who care about providing a service (I'll not use the phrase public service), who understand that you have to treat customers right in order to retain them and attract new ones, rather than taking them for granted, and who have an eye for detail.

Current example. The 32 service arriving in Uttoxeter am, for which First receive substantial wonga for scholars passes from Staffs CC, retimed to now arrive 15 minutes after school registration. You have to be especially incompetent to manage that, not just ordinarily clueless.

Given the101's name, he must be pleased to see that the route of that number is returning, having been renumbered to 10 only last year! Changes for the sake of appearing to be doing something.

 

[overthewater]

Current example. The 32 service arriving in Uttoxeter am, for which First receive substantial wonga for scholars passes from Staffs CC, retimed to now arrive 15 minutes after school registration. You have to be especially incompetent to manage that, not just ordinarily clueless.

That really is pure incompetent.

The problem is we need anther strong bus company like Stagecoach to keep standards high, but I can't think of any. Go Ahead and Nat Express are two small and Arriva are not the best either.

Why not just say sod it, were losing money lets just go for it, and try and win people back no matter what.

 

[ChrisPJ]

Easier to just wind things down. Requires very little effort and zero investment

 

[Robertj21a]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


To my mind, we need long term, competent, managers who care about providing a service (I'll not use the phrase public service), who understand that you have to treat customers right in order to retain them and attract new ones, rather than taking them for granted, and who have an eye for detail.
.

It's not too long since a new MD was appointed to cover Potteries, Worcester and Leicester. The other two areas seem to be doing ok under his leadership, so what is he missing at Potteries ?

 

[Mugby]

I spent an afternoon in the Potteries today, visiting Longton, Newcastle and Hanley on a Potteries Day Ticket.

As far as First Group are concerned, it seemed to me to be like a half and half operation, some vehicles are very smartly presented whilst others really are shabby in the extreme, dented panels, unwashed and damage bodged with filler.

Is it really desirable to administer First Potteries from Chelmsford? Is there any incentive or motivation for local management to do anything other than the very basic necessities to keep the show on the road?

 

[Camden]

Surely there must be a case here for local authorities to have control of the buses, specifying routes and services a la TFL, given the lack of anything else on offer in the area? Of course the authorities would have to be adequately funded by government to do anything with such powers...

 

[Robertj21a]

I spent an afternoon in the Potteries today, visiting Longton, Newcastle and Hanley on a Potteries Day Ticket.

As far as First Group are concerned, it seemed to me to be like a half and half operation, some vehicles are very smartly presented whilst others really are shabby in the extreme, dented panels, unwashed and damage bodged with filler.

Is it really desirable to administer First Potteries from Chelmsford? Is there any incentive or motivation for local management to do anything other than the very basic necessities to keep the show on the road?

Potteries management is actually in the Midlands. The MD covers Potteries, Worcester and Leicester and is at one or another of these locations most days.

 

[the101]

Surely there must be a case here for local authorities to have control of the buses, specifying routes and services a la TFL, given the lack of anything else on offer in the area? Of course the authorities would have to be adequately funded by government to do anything with such powers...

Possibly, although given that Stoke City Council spends £0.00p per annum subsidising buses I am not sure where the money for re-regulation would come from. The other potential pitfall is that SoT CC's well-publicised level of incompetence and financial ineptitude means that it would probably do a much worse job than even First does.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Apparently, we have a new 'wonder boy' in to sort things out!

The new 'boy wonder' has been in post for about four months. You tell me if you have noticed any signs of improvement...

On the rare occasions I am unfortunate enough to be in Stoke or North Staffordshire, I do not use First buses any more. The never-ending running time extensions, brought in as panic measures to deal with a few journeys that ran late but were applied regardless of whether it was 4.30pm on a Friday or 10.30am on a Tuesday, mean that in some cases it is quicker to walk if you are fit and able to - while at busy times, schedule revisions have had little effect and it is not unusual to see two or three buses on the same route running within a couple of minutes of each other, despite there being supervision at Hanley Bus Station who should be sorting things out.

A completely lax and undisciplined approach to driver changeovers routinely taking place late, drivers dropping mileage at their own decision despite there being no alternative service, and some idiotic allocations (such as the not unusual appearance of Optare Solos in lieu of double-deckers on the trunk route to Keele among many others) have all conspired to make D&G the operator of choice for me. Given that D&G is hardly without its own faults I can hardly believe I am saying that.

 

[Robertj21a]

Possibly, although given that Stoke City Council spends £0.00p per annum subsidising buses I am not sure where the money for re-regulation would come from. The other potential pitfall is that SoT CC's well-publicised level of incompetence and financial ineptitude means that it would probably do a much worse job than even First does.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The new 'boy wonder' has been in post for about four months. You tell me if you have noticed any signs of improvement...

On the rare occasions I am unfortunate enough to be in Stoke or North Staffordshire, I do not use First buses any more. The never-ending running time extensions, brought in as panic measures to deal with a few journeys that ran late but were applied regardless of whether it was 4.30pm on a Friday or 10.30am on a Tuesday, mean that in some cases it is quicker to walk if you are fit and able to - while at busy times, schedule revisions have had little effect and it is not unusual to see two or three buses on the same route running within a couple of minutes of each other, despite there being supervision at Hanley Bus Station who should be sorting things out.

A completely lax and undisciplined approach to driver changeovers routinely taking place late, drivers dropping mileage at their own decision despite there being no alternative service, and some idiotic allocations (such as the not unusual appearance of Optare Solos in lieu of double-deckers on the trunk route to Keele among many others) have all conspired to make D&G the operator of choice for me. Given that D&G is hardly without its own faults I can hardly believe I am saying that.

Of course many people overlook the fact that Londoners contribute a significant amount to keep their public transport as it is today, somehow I don't see the residents of Stoke to cough up anything like a similar figure !

I don't think I know this new 'Boy Wonder' (but may do from other roles. I assume you don't mean SZ) - presumably he's responsible for the day to day running of Potteries ? - and reports direct to the MD ?

 

[radamfi]

Of course many people overlook the fact that Londoners contribute a significant amount to keep their public transport as it is today

Do they? I though the vast majority of TfL funding comes from central government rather than Council Tax.

 

[the101]

Of course many people overlook the fact that Londoners contribute a significant amount to keep their public transport as it is today, somehow I don't see the residents of Stoke to cough up anything like a similar figure !

I don't think I know this new 'Boy Wonder' (but may do from other roles. I assume you don't mean SZ) - presumably he's responsible for the day to day running of Potteries ? - and reports direct to the MD ?

I don't know where TfL's funding comes from, but in Stoke it is more important to spend money on new council buildings that are subsequently unused than it is to support bus services that benefit citizens. The many council-owned buses that were left to rot for two or three years until they were almost worthless, rather than being sold on in roadworthy condition when the work for them dried up, is another example of the local authority's grasp of financial responsibility. They were all early/mid 2000s MPD Darts or Solos with very low mileages, and would have been attractive on the second-hand market.

As for the name you mention, no, it's not him and he remains where he has always been. The newcomer is from another big group active in the Midlands and which displayed a similar inability to get to grips with the Potteries when it was active there. Job title either Staff Manager or General Manager so yes, the reporting route will be as you suggest.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I spent an afternoon in the Potteries today, visiting Longton, Newcastle and Hanley on a Potteries Day Ticket.

As far as First Group are concerned, it seemed to me to be like a half and half operation, some vehicles are very smartly presented whilst others really are shabby in the extreme, dented panels, unwashed and damage bodged with filler.

Is it really desirable to administer First Potteries from Chelmsford? Is there any incentive or motivation for local management to do anything other than the very basic necessities to keep the show on the road?

Well, it could be suggested that the 'legal lettering' on all First in the Potteries buses is incorrect. VOSA website only gives the Adderley Green (i.e. Stoke-on-Trent) address for First Potteries (PD0000003). No reference to Chelmsford, although there was at one time. Perhaps the finances are so bad they cannot afford stickers (or the staff to apply them) to correct things! First Midland Red i.e. Worcester and Hereford operations (yes, Hereford is still on the licence) have the same Adderley Green address.

Customer services are more locally based than Chelmsford - in Norwich!

The new buses (Streetlites, mostly brand new, a few fairly new hand-me-downs) are of poor quality. Suffering from shakes and rattles already. The other day I travelled on one where the brakes appeared to be sticking on whilst the bus was moving, with the attendant brakeblock smell, yet the driver couldn't stop at my stop when required and we cruised to a halt a couple of bus lengths later! Now that should have been faulted out of service.

A number of others in the fleet have been comprehensively refurbished e.g. for the 'Cherry' routes. But, as is always the case, the money ran out before the job was completed fleetwide - alternatively, the interest in doing anymore departed once a single route had been launched and favourable publicity garnered!

 

[Robertj21a]

Do they? I though the vast majority of TfL funding comes from central government rather than Council Tax.

Yes, thinking about it I'm sure you're right. I can't recall if/how the DfT general grant is partly apportioned back to London, but in any case the fact is that London needs a transport system which has to be fairly unique (in the UK).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, it could be suggested that the 'legal lettering' on all First in the Potteries buses is incorrect. VOSA website only gives the Adderley Green (i.e. Stoke-on-Trent) address for First Potteries (PD0000003). No reference to Chelmsford, although there was at one time. Perhaps the finances are so bad they cannot afford stickers (or the staff to apply them) to correct things! First Midland Red i.e. Worcester and Hereford operations (yes, Hereford is still on the licence) have the same Adderley Green address.

Customer services are more locally based than Chelmsford - in Norwich!

The new buses (Streetlites, mostly brand new, a few fairly new hand-me-downs) are of poor quality. Suffering from shakes and rattles already. The other day I travelled on one where the brakes appeared to be sticking on whilst the bus was moving, with the attendant brakeblock smell, yet the driver couldn't stop at my stop when required and we cruised to a halt a couple of bus lengths later! Now that should have been faulted out of service.

A number of others in the fleet have been comprehensively refurbished e.g. for the 'Cherry' routes. But, as is always the case, the money ran out before the job was completed fleetwide - alternatively, the interest in doing anymore departed once a single route had been launched and favourable publicity garnered!

Surely, First just uses Chelmsford as a legal address for admin purposes (and, therefore, the legal ownership panels). It's the Operating Centres that are listed on VOSA at Adderley Green, Worcester, Leicester etc