First Potteries Discussion

[Lewisham2221]

Thanks, must have missed that. So there’s still no obvious replacement for the Omnicities. The Streetlites are not a pleasant ride on express services and the ex Eclipse Enviros don’t have the capacity.

Personally think the Streetlites are  more comfortable at speed in top gear than they are trundling around town in the "wrong" gear to keep the revs down and save fuel.

As for capacity, the former Eclipse vehicles only have 2 or 3 fewer seats than an Omnicity, and a far more practical layout at the front part of the saloon with tip up seats on both sides, as opposed to the pair of single facing seats on the Omnicities.

 

[James101]

Personally think the Streetlites are  more comfortable at speed in top gear than they are trundling around town in the "wrong" gear to keep the revs down and save fuel.

As for capacity, the former Eclipse vehicles only have 2 or 3 fewer seats than an Omnicity, and a far more practical layout at the front part of the saloon with tip up seats on both sides, as opposed to the pair of single facing seats on the Omnicities.

I count 37 ‘proper’ seats on an Omnicity and 32 on an Eclipse E200. I’ve discounted tip-up seats as forcing passengers onto those for inter-urban journeys is not compatible with growing patronage.

Peak journeys already see standees on Omnicities, I’ve thought the Streedecks have been welcome over summer and hope a few and any spare E400s can continue to be allocated.

 

[SeanM1997]

Today was the last day of First Potteries' Route 6 (Crewe - Leighton Hospital)

 

[tram21]

I saw a First Potteries bus (35944) on the Blackpool Promenade today displaying UK Bus Driver of the Year 2023, presumably travelling to the yearly awards ceremony held in Blackpool.

 

[James101]

The first of the 2013 ‘Mainline’ Streetlites have started to be moved back to Manchester (Oldham).

These buses spent 9 months in 2022 in their ‘half dressed’ refurbished but unbranded state and just 11 months in service as branded before withdrawal.

The real winner, as always, is the design and refurbishment companies.

 

[G760XRE]

The first of the 2013 ‘Mainline’ Streetlites have started to be moved back to Manchester (Oldham).

These buses spent 9 months in 2022 in their ‘half dressed’ refurbished but unbranded state and just 11 months in service as branded before withdrawal.

The real winner, as always, is the design and refurbishment companies.

I did find it a little odd that they moved 63100 to Manchester along with 63096/8/9 but kept 63097 (still in generic First 'urban' livery) at Potteries. You'd think that would've gone not recently refurbished/branded 63100.
Your post seems to infer more Mainline branded Steeetlites are due to transfer to Manchester. Is this confirmed and if so, how many are going?

 

[m79900]

Why would the mainline Streetlites move away? They were only recently refurbished into a route branded livery.

 

[cnjb8]

Why would the mainline Streetlites move away? They were only recently refurbished into a route branded livery.

If the rumours about a new national livery are true, then it doesn't really matter as the Mainline livery may become obsolete

 

[mic]

I did find it a little odd that they moved 63100 to Manchester along with 63096/8/9 but kept 63097 (still in generic First 'urban' livery) at Potteries. You'd think that would've gone not recently refurbished/branded 63100.
Your post seems to infer more Mainline branded Steeetlites are due to transfer to Manchester. Is this confirmed and if so, how many are going?

63097 63101 and 63102 are due to move to Oldham this month when some other that are spares for the Leigh guided busway move to Sheffield

 

[stait.john]

Yes Oldham are due to have 7, 63096-63102.

 

[43055]

Looks like a slight positive timetable change for the 25 next Monday.

Weekdays - moves from a 15 min service to a 15 off peak and up to every 10 peak times and last service now 2327 from Hanley and 0013 from Keele.
Saturdays - still every 15 mins generally with some odd 19-20 min gaps in the afternoon. As per weekdays last bus now 2327 from Hanley and 0013 return (90 mins later than the current timetable)
Sundays - still the same.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Looks like a slight positive timetable change for the 25 next Monday.

Weekdays - moves from a 15 min service to a 15 off peak and up to every 10 peak times and last service now 2327 from Hanley and 0013 from Keele.
Saturdays - still every 15 mins generally with some odd 19-20 min gaps in the afternoon. As per weekdays last bus now 2327 from Hanley and 0013 return (90 mins later than the current timetable)
Sundays - still the same.

It's supposed to be every 12 minutes off-peak from today, so actually a reduction in frequency by next Monday. As for the timetable, what a mess. I could ask who on earth is going to understand it, but as First Potteries run at random times anyway, I guess a mix of 9, 10, 11, 12 and 15 minute frequencies will be impossible to spot on the ground. And that snappy 35 minute frequency in the evenings, that'll get the brain cells working trying to remember it.

 

[SeanM1997]

First Potteries have registered to vary routes 6 (6A, 6C), 18 and 101 from 5 November 2023. No further information is online at this stage

https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/search/bus/search/?form-actions%5Bcontinue%5D=&text%5Bsearch%5D=First%20Potteries&filter%5BtrafficArea%5D=&filter%5BbusRegStatus%5D=Variation&search=First%20Potteries&searchBy=&security=eae5dcef09c654f6ed09a57b6ca1e682-4c67d4241e68bc41f34d4447c03faa72

 

[SW Buses]

First Potteries have registered to vary routes 6 (6A, 6C), 18 and 101 from 5 November 2023. No further information is online at this stage

https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/search/bus/search/?form-actions%5Bcontinue%5D=&text%5Bsearch%5D=First%20Potteries&filter%5BtrafficArea%5D=&filter%5BbusRegStatus%5D=Variation&search=First%20Potteries&searchBy=&security=eae5dcef09c654f6ed09a57b6ca1e682-4c67d4241e68bc41f34d4447c03faa72

Assume the timetable is built using Optibus, https://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2022/06-09-2022.aspx, as now deployed in other operating companies. The 1113 and 1213 ex Hanley Bus Station weekdays has 3 min difference in running time, and the 1013 and 1313 is different again.

This has occurred in the latest changes in West of England.

Could this not be ‘harmonised’ for consistency?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Assume the timetable is built using Optibus, https://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2022/06-09-2022.aspx, as now deployed in other operating companies. The 1113 and 1213 ex Hanley Bus Station weekdays has 3 min difference in running time, and the 1013 and 1313 is different again.

This has occurred in the latest changes in West of England.

Could this not be ‘harmonised’ for consistency?

What! Make things more attractive to potential customers. That'll never catch on.

I noticed that, in the 'standard' off-peak pattern, the arrival times were all over the place and wondered whether it was that new fangled AI or 'Artificial Stupidity' at play. At least the departure times do settle into a regular 15 minute pattern! The evening pattern (every 35 minutes, fits where it touches) suggests that it has been determined (by man or machine) that the three buses deployed on the evening services cannot do the round trip and achieve the previous 30 minute more easily remembered pattern. The same occurs all over the country at peak hours. Just when you would think buses should run more frequently as demand is higher they 'stretch' the frequency from, say, 20 to 25 to 30 minutes.

I seem to recall that Stagecoach did the same on the hourly 555 Lancaster to Keswick service a few years back, still sort of hourly but moving a few minutes each way, presumably according to past running data.

These are the 'standard' times:

hanley	0943	0958	1013	1028	1043	1058	1113	1128	1143	1158	1213	1228	1243	1258	1313	1328	1343	1358	1413	1428	1443	1458
keele	1032	1048	1103	1117	1133	1147	1202	1215	1232	1249	1305	1318	1335	1349	1404	1416	1430	1446	1502	1515	1533	1548

This is the frequency ex Hanley:

30

15

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12

8

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[dodecahedron67]

2x Low Height Streetdecks (MF72 WB_ plates) are to transfer from York on Friday

 

[SW Buses]

Do First Potteries issue any timetable leaflets or maps/publicity?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Do First Potteries issue any timetable leaflets or maps/publicity?

Not in paper form as far as I am aware. I asked at Newcastle the other week - a council one-stop shop rather than a First Bus location. There is only one of those - at Hanley. There is a map online.

 

[43055]

2x Low Height Streetdecks (MF72 WB_ plates) are to transfer from York on Friday

bus times is currently showing 35937, MF72 WBU and 35938, MF72 WBV on First Potteries fleet list.

 

[Simon75]

Do First Potteries issue any timetable leaflets or maps/publicity?

Maps and paper copies at Hanley bus station

 

[dodecahedron67]

bus times is currently showing 35937, MF72 WBU and 35938, MF72 WBV on First Potteries fleet list.

Confirmed that these are the correct two

 

[G760XRE]

Confirmed that these are the correct two

bus times is currently showing 35937, MF72 WBU and 35938, MF72 WBV on First Potteries fleet list.

Can confirm these are both now parked up at Adderley Green depot, seen earlier today

 

[Lewisham2221]

What! Make things more attractive to potential customers. That'll never catch on.

I noticed that, in the 'standard' off-peak pattern, the arrival times were all over the place and wondered whether it was that new fangled AI or 'Artificial Stupidity' at play. At least the departure times do settle into a regular 15 minute pattern! The evening pattern (every 35 minutes, fits where it touches) suggests that it has been determined (by man or machine) that the three buses deployed on the evening services cannot do the round trip and achieve the previous 30 minute more easily remembered pattern. The same occurs all over the country at peak hours. Just when you would think buses should run more frequently as demand is higher they 'stretch' the frequency from, say, 20 to 25 to 30 minutes.

I seem to recall that Stagecoach did the same on the hourly 555 Lancaster to Keswick service a few years back, still sort of hourly but moving a few minutes each way, presumably according to past running data.

These are the 'standard' times:

hanley	0943	0958	1013	1028	1043	1058	1113	1128	1143	1158	1213	1228	1243	1258	1313	1328	1343	1358	1413	1428	1443	1458
keele	1032	1048	1103	1117	1133	1147	1202	1215	1232	1249	1305	1318	1335	1349	1404	1416	1430	1446	1502	1515	1533	1548

This is the frequency ex Hanley:

30

15

15

15

15

12

8

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11

10

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Bus companies can't win, can they? Provide a realistic timetable, with timings that actually reflect real world operating conditions - get slated for not having a clock face timetable.

Provide a clockface timetable - get slated for late running and/or having annoyingly slack schedules with long journey times where buses sit off time at intermediate timing points all through the route.

2x Low Height Streetdecks (MF72 WB_ plates) are to transfer from York on Friday

bus times is currently showing 35937, MF72 WBU and 35938, MF72 WBV on First Potteries fleet list.

Can confirm these are both now parked up at Adderley Green depot, seen earlier today

One of these entered service yesterday afternoon, believe they are both out today.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Bus companies can't win, can they? Provide a realistic timetable, with timings that actually reflect real world operating conditions - get slated for not having a clock face timetable.

Provide a clockface timetable - get slated for late running and/or having annoyingly slack schedules with long journey times where buses sit off time at intermediate timing points all through the route.

Yes, they can win.
It's called applying common sense.
The AI software, if that is actually the cause, needs a 'smoothing out function' or the application of a version 1.0 human brain to the draft output. You take the average over (say) the 1000 to 1500 period and that's your time taken. Not the shortest ever journey at 0500 on a Sunday which then leads to every other bus racing to keep to time, nor taking the longest time from the peak period, which then leads to buses sitting off at every lamppost for the reminder of the day. That is why you are allowed '1 minute early or 5 minutes late' and 'timing points every 15 minutes' when setting schedules. Similarly allow realistic layover at terminal points (rather than mid-route) to allow a bus to at least start it's journey on time.

Having a 15 minute frequency off-peak timetable where buses vary by a couple of minutes every trip is, quite simply, daft. It will be interesting to see if they produce a paper printed version of that timetable. As I said, at least the departure times settled down to a regular pattern.

In reality, as also appears to be the case with the railways (timetable of the day published at 2200) operators appear to wish to get away from having a fixed published timetable that they have to commit themselves to providing, just run whatever, whenever. What impact having a random service will have on future passengers numbers one can probably predict and it won't be a growth scenario!

In reality, does it make a difference on the ground? No, because traffic / roadworks / passenger levels mean that buses will be those couple of minutes off-time anyway.

Performance yesterday seems to have been particularly bad, assuming bustimes.org is accurate:
No bus from Keele between 0612 and 0742 or between 0855 and 0955. Two departures from Hanley between the 1526 and 1702. That is not a 10 minute frequency and something of a stretch to claim it as an 'up to every 10 minutes'!

 

[Simon75]

Do Keele university have any say in the running of the 25 ?

 

[G760XRE]

Bus companies can't win, can they? Provide a realistic timetable, with timings that actually reflect real world operating conditions - get slated for not having a clock face timetable.

Provide a clockface timetable - get slated for late running and/or having annoyingly slack schedules with long journey times where buses sit off time at intermediate timing points all through the route.




One of these entered service yesterday afternoon, believe they are both out today.

Have they been out on public routes yet? Saw one yesterday morning about to start service on one of the Cheadle school services (didn't see which one it was), but not observed either in normal service yet.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Have they been out on public routes yet? Saw one yesterday morning about to start service on one of the Cheadle school services (didn't see which one it was), but not observed either in normal service yet.

Only been on schools yet AFAIK. I'm led to believe that more are due, both to replace the Enviro400s and to accommodate the PVR increase associated with the new Keele timetable. Probably most likely to find them on schools/football but I can't imagine it will be long before one shows up on regular service work - 8, 25 or 101 being the most likely routes.

Performance yesterday seems to have been particularly bad, assuming bustimes.org is accurate:
No bus from Keele between 0612 and 0742 or between 0855 and 0955. Two departures from Hanley between the 1526 and 1702. That is not a 10 minute frequency and something of a stretch to claim it as an 'up to every 10 minutes'!

Bustimes.org -

• Vehicles don’t always track all the time. If a journey isn’t listed, it doesn’t necessarily mean it didn’t operate.

I'm told that a recent Ticketer update of some sort has caused several issues, including tracking problems.

 

[G760XRE]

Only been on schools yet AFAIK. I'm led to believe that more are due, both to replace the Enviro400s and to accommodate the PVR increase associated with the new Keele timetable. Probably most likely to find them on schools/football but I can't imagine it will be long before one shows up on regular service work - 8, 25 or 101 being the most likely routes.




I'm told that a recent Ticketer update of some sort has caused several issues, including tracking problems.

I can attest to that, experienced buses physically there that weren't tracking recently. Hence why I asked if the ex York Street decks had been in service and didn't just rely on bustimes.

Also surprised the E400's are going. Thought these would stay for the Cheadle School services. Any idea where they're heading off to?

 

[Lewisham2221]

I can attest to that, experienced buses physically there that weren't tracking recently. Hence why I asked if the ex York Street decks had been in service and didn't just rely on bustimes.

According to bus times, 35938 is out on 25s today.

Also surprised the E400's are going. Thought these would stay for the Cheadle School services. Any idea where they're heading off to?

The E400s aren't popular among the drivers. Their height also reduces their usefulness. At least one of the school runs requires a lower height decker anyway, so I suppose just having an identical fleet of one type makes sense and makes it easier to switch vehicles around during the day. No idea where the E400s are destined I'm afraid.

 

[G760XRE]

According to bus times, 35938 is out on 25s today.


The E400s aren't popular among the drivers. Their height also reduces their usefulness. At least one of the school runs requires a lower height decker anyway, so I suppose just having an identical fleet of one type makes sense and makes it easier to switch vehicles around during the day. No idea where the E400s are destined I'm afraid.

Yes that'll be the Stone to Cheadle one. Probably due to the overhanging trees on the A520 coming out of Stone towards Meir Heath. Also 1 of the services has started using single deckers too. Makes sense shipping them out then. Just surprising to have relatively new dockers on school services. These were operated by the KP51 Alx400s and KP54 B7s not that long ago. I expected when the new street decks came some B7s would've been retained for the school services, fair play to First for not putting life expired stock on these.