First Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and West Lothian operations)

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

They will continue on this path I’m afraid, there won’t be any improvements.

 

[CN04NRJ]

It's Drivers they need not buses. Has more staff left or is covid just getting worse at certain depots?

Quite a few Livingston leavers moving on to "another" company, especially BBT drivers.

 

[PaulMc7]

They're as good as done in the area IMO but obviously won't just give it up to Lothian that easily just to drain another few quid from them. Stirling etc too heading the same way it seems but god knows who would be interested in buying it off of them as it's woeful bus territory

 

[JumpinTrainz]

With a refurb the E400s would be a good addition to FSE. They are nice buses. They could have replaced the Scania’s with E400s.

 

[overthewater]

They're as good as done in the area IMO but obviously won't just give it up to Lothian that easily just to drain another few quid from them. Stirling etc too heading the same way it seems but god knows who would be interested in buying it off of them as it's woeful bus territory

Stirling still has a few attractive features to itself. If someone went in with a little bit of TLC, they could easily turn it around. Maybe they should come to some sort deal in West Lothian.

 

[PaulMc7]

Stirling still has a few attractive features to itself. If someone went in with a little bit of TLC, they could easily turn it around. Maybe they should come to some sort deal in West Lothian.

Stirling/Falkirk is more salvageable than West Lothian so best case scenario is they get a good deal for West Lothian and take whatever they can over there. I've never really used the bus in West Lothian but from what I've seen in Livingston pre Covid even then buses in Falkirk and Stirling were busier.

 

[156478]

Stirling/Falkirk is more salvageable than West Lothian so best case scenario is they get a good deal for West Lothian and take whatever they can over there. I've never really used the bus in West Lothian but from what I've seen in Livingston pre Covid even then buses in Falkirk and Stirling were busier.

Stirling has been left to stagnate- but thats mainly because its not brilliant bus operating territory, so not all the blame lies at the door with First on this one.

Fallkirk - bus services are all things to all people and the network is very unweidly and the current form it is in - and today it is actually the most simple it has been! The prime example are the 6/6A, 7 and 8 which are shown as one service on the map which north of Falkirk is just crazy and the 3 and 4 to Grangemouth which are just big circuitous tours of the town. Anyone remember the 6/7 and the 67/78 fiasco?

Before the Green and Cream went into West Lothian, the network was constantly being tinkered with as First tried to make the services pay, I would hazard a guess that services were just about profitable. Like all new towns- Irvine, East Kilbride, Glenrothes and to some extent Erskine the road network is unashamedly designed for cars and bus services are forced to take long circuitous tedious tours of all the schemes and again the services try to be all things to all people- the bus to Livingston town centre to do their shopping is also their very slow bus to Edinburgh, again that isnt a knock to First- its the way you are forced to operate services in Livingston.

The whole old SMT, Eastern, Lowland and Midland Scottish network that became First Edinburgh which then became First Scotland East was never going to make tremendous amount of money. At some point the towel will need to be thrown in at West Lothian and it is of genuine suprise to me and probably everyone else on here that First have stuck it out for so long and not given up. Bright Bus Tours is keeping the Livingston depot afloat.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

I’ve always said this and people may disagree but I truly think First are better cutting their loses with FSE. The fleet has got better over the years but let’s be real - they have been dumped with Streetlites because no other operator really wants them. They don’t generate enough money to justify new stock. It always seems really half hearted. I feel like most services carry fresh air. It just doesn’t seem very practical for them to have kept it running for so long.

 

[PaulMc7]

I’ve always said this and people may disagree but I truly think First are better cutting their loses with FSE. The fleet has got better over the years but let’s be real - they have been dumped with Streetlites because no other operator really wants them. They don’t generate enough money to justify new stock. It always seems really half hearted. I feel like most services carry fresh air. It just doesn’t seem very practical for them to have kept it running for so long.

I reckon they could ditch FSE but keep the services that link to Glasgow and just run them from Caledonia depot. It's manageable with the X10/X10A and X36/X37. The 35 is a whole other issue but I don't expect that to ever go back to the X35 route.

Hopefully the Streetlites would end up down south because they're just very poor in general even when brand new.

 

[overthewater]

Stirling has been left to stagnate- but thats mainly because its not brilliant bus operating territory, so not all the blame lies at the door with First on this one.

Fallkirk - bus services are all things to all people and the network is very unweidly and the current form it is in - and today it is actually the most simple it has been! The prime example are the 6/6A, 7 and 8 which are shown as one service on the map which north of Falkirk is just crazy and the 3 and 4 to Grangemouth which are just big circuitous tours of the town. Anyone remember the 6/7 and the 67/78 fiasco?

Before the Green and Cream went into West Lothian, the network was constantly being tinkered with as First tried to make the services pay, I would hazard a guess that services were just about profitable. Like all new towns- Irvine, East Kilbride, Glenrothes and to some extent Erskine the road network is unashamedly designed for cars and bus services are forced to take long circuitous tedious tours of all the schemes and again the services try to be all things to all people- the bus to Livingston town centre to do their shopping is also their very slow bus to Edinburgh, again that isnt a knock to First- its the way you are forced to operate services in Livingston.

The whole old SMT, Eastern, Lowland and Midland Scottish network that became First Edinburgh which then became First Scotland East was never going to make tremendous amount of money. At some point the towel will need to be thrown in at West Lothian and it is of genuine suprise to me and probably everyone else on here that First have stuck it out for so long and not given up. Bright Bus Tours is keeping the Livingston depot afloat.

First has at last given West Lothian a network it can be proud off, its faster and more streamlined. Cream and green routes just reminds me of the bad old days, especial X27/X28. Midland Bluebird was I'm lead to believe one of the more profitable companies in the Scottish bus group, however your right the Falkirk network has also been extremely complicated over the years, during the 80s and 90s there were many areas with up to 3 routes serving places like Hallglen or Bo'ness. By the late 90 it was simplified and in 2001 it was renumbered 1 -13.

I do still think Stirling isn't as bad as its made out to be, and could if some worked was done make it a good bus operating territory. You have a uni, good shops and Clackmannanshire.

 

[156478]

I reckon they could ditch FSE but keep the services that link to Glasgow and just run them from Caledonia depot. It's manageable with the X10/X10A and X36/X37. The 35 is a whole other issue but I don't expect that to ever go back to the X35 route.

X10 and X10A barely scrapes by. How that route managed to get some relatively new Enviro 400 Deckers and not some displaced manky clapped out Geminis from Glasgow is actually quite impressive.

 

[PaulMc7]

X10 and X10A barely scrapes by. How that route managed to get some relatively new Enviro 400 Deckers and not some displaced manky clapped out Geminis from Glasgow is actually quite impressive.

The Bearsden to Glasgow section probably keeps it more afloat than people think to be honest. I've seen some rather busy journeys on that section which in itself is impressive because there's plenty of buses around even with reduced frequencies on the 60/60A and 61.

 

[CN04NRJ]

First has at last given West Lothian a network it can be proud off

Really? Customers, the DVSA and former staff say otherwise..

 

[156478]

Really? Customers, the DVSA and former staff say otherwise..

My memory tells me there was some kind of awkward maintenance disaster/fiasco at Livingston depot a few years ago wasn't there?

Im sure the proverbial also hit the fan at Larbert Depot also.

 

[overthewater]

Really? Customers, the DVSA and former staff say otherwise..

YES! First West Lothian, IE the one from 2019 has been it's best ever network. Why would DVSA give too monkeys about bus routes I will never know.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

X10 and X10A barely scrapes by. How that route managed to get some relatively new Enviro 400 Deckers and not some displaced manky clapped out Geminis from Glasgow is actually quite impressive.

All thanks to the Glasgow CAZ (Clean Air Zone) coming in.

 

[Jordan Adam]

With a refurb the E400s would be a good addition to FSE.

They're needed in Glasgow for the 6. I am surprised they haven't ben refurbished and branded like the Geminis on the 61 were.

 

[stevenedin]

If I’m honest, the First services seem decent enough in West Lothian when I’ve used them recently. The only thing I’d say about Lothian country is that the buses are filthy inside. It’s like they don’t get cleaned as often.

 

[adrock1976]

I reckon they could ditch FSE but keep the services that link to Glasgow and just run them from Caledonia depot. It's manageable with the X10/X10A and X36/X37. The 35 is a whole other issue but I don't expect that to ever go back to the X35 route.

Hopefully the Streetlites would end up down south because they're just very poor in general even when brand new.

The section of the 35 between Falkirk - Kilsyth could be combined with the 89 and run to Glasgow via the A803.

This was formerly the 24/27, which ran to both Stirling and Falkirk and can remember them being operated with the cream double deckers. When these got revised a while ago, there is nothing from Kilsyth to Stirling anymore, which seems odd as the A803 north of Kilsyth is Stirling Road and before the days of Strathclyde Regional Council which came into being back in 1975, Kilsyth was in Stirlingshire back then.

 

[freddiem]

From my point of view, the current network first bus offer in West Lothian is quite good, the X22 is certainly a time saver over LC X27/28 from Edinburgh and the 26/26A seems to be reasonably popular (when it actually runs). However, the thing that puts me off using them is the tombola cancellations each day. I think if first have any future in Livingston, they need to get real with the public and create timetables that they can actually run reliably or give up and go.

 

[Busman757]

If I’m honest, the First services seem decent enough in West Lothian when I’ve used them recently. The only thing I’d say about Lothian country is that the buses are filthy inside. It’s like they don’t get cleaned as often.

Cleaned and disinfected every night. It’s the passengers during the day that leave it like that.

 

[mb88]

From my point of view, the current network first bus offer in West Lothian is quite good, the X22 is certainly a time saver over LC X27/28 from Edinburgh and the 26/26A seems to be reasonably popular (when it actually runs). However, the thing that puts me off using them is the tombola cancellations each day. I think if first have any future in Livingston, they need to get real with the public and create timetables that they can actually run reliably or give up and go.

Exactly right. They need to come up with schedules that they can actually run with the staff they have not attempt to run a ‘full service’ but cancel journeys sometimes very last minute.

 

[PaulMc7]

From my point of view, the current network first bus offer in West Lothian is quite good, the X22 is certainly a time saver over LC X27/28 from Edinburgh and the 26/26A seems to be reasonably popular (when it actually runs). However, the thing that puts me off using them is the tombola cancellations each day. I think if first have any future in Livingston, they need to get real with the public and create timetables that they can actually run reliably or give up and go.

I think there's 4 issues with First in that sense:

1) Having 1 communication point instead of all depots doing it on their own just doesn't work.

2) Their app isn't that reliable a lot of the time.

3) If they were realistic how many people would actually be interested in using services that are always say one an hour? It seems that bad from the cancellation lists even in Stirling and Falkirk sometimes

4) Even though it's not the only factor, all it takes is one Covid outbreak to flip everything on a day to day basis.

 

[UK Bus Spotter]

Which buses are on loan from Glasgow and midland bluebird to Livingston? I was looking to find them but not sure where the best place would be to catch them thanks

 

[stevenedin]

I’m not sure if the fleet numbers but they seem to be on the X22 and X24

 

[scosutsut]

Not sure if it's been said already but I suspect the bus loans, when the main problem seems to be a driver shortage could possibly be an engineer shortage - so they've got enough vehicles, but too many VOR due to a maintenance backlog?

Now the cause for any shortage could be the ongoing pressures of getting employees for the industry, losing them to competition, COVID, or a combination thereof - all of which are cited for driver losses, so it stands to reason that engineering staff are equally at risk on all of the same points.

 

[Volvodart]

Not sure if it is the same there, Aberdeen has had a backlog of buses needing to have MOTs which led to buses being off service as well as the normal number of buses requiring repairs and maintenance.

 

[PaulMc7]

What would be a realistic timetable for services in West Lothian currently? The fact the cancellations don't lessen much on weekends either is very concerning but I'd love to know what people who know more about the operations in West Lothian think is realistic in terms of providing a service

 

[freddiem]

From living in Livingston and seeing loadings at various times of day, i would say the following would be more appropriate:

21 - Every 60mins as just now
X22 - Every 30 mins as just now between Shotts and Livingston centre, with one bus per hour continuing to Edinburgh
X24/X25 - Run X25 every 20/30 mins across whole route (Blackridge - Edinburgh) and divert via Pumpherston to cover X24 links there. WITHDRAW X24
26/26A - Run 20/30 mins across 26 route (Livingston North - Bathgate). Withdraw 26A
600 - Every 60mins is adequate - always seem to see it carrying vast amounts of Fresh air.

The wider problem is passenger loadings in Livingston are difficult to cater for - the new town design is very car orientated and as such bus loadings can be low. Also the bus using demographic in Livingston is largely free pass holders (now including under 22s).

The network must surround Livingston Centre as this is the main destination for passengers and as such all routes that enter the town must pass by it. This puts people off using the bus as they take long circuitous routes through the various areas to visit the centre, and fare paying passengers feel that sitting on a bus to Edinburgh that is going to take them on the Grand Tour of Livingston is not attractive when they can either A) Drive into the city/ Park and Ride sites or B) take what could be quite a pleasant walk to one of the train stations, much more favourable.

 

[adrock1976]

From living in Livingston and seeing loadings at various times of day, i would say the following would be more appropriate:

21 - Every 60mins as just now
X22 - Every 30 mins as just now between Shotts and Livingston centre, with one bus per hour continuing to Edinburgh
X24/X25 - Run X25 every 20/30 mins across whole route (Blackridge - Edinburgh) and divert via Pumpherston to cover X24 links there. WITHDRAW X24
26/26A - Run 20/30 mins across 26 route (Livingston North - Bathgate). Withdraw 26A
600 - Every 60mins is adequate - always seem to see it carrying vast amounts of Fresh air.

The wider problem is passenger loadings in Livingston are difficult to cater for - the new town design is very car orientated and as such bus loadings can be low. Also the bus using demographic in Livingston is largely free pass holders (now including under 22s).

The network must surround Livingston Centre as this is the main destination for passengers and as such all routes that enter the town must pass by it. This puts people off using the bus as they take long circuitous routes through the various areas to visit the centre, and fare paying passengers feel that sitting on a bus to Edinburgh that is going to take them on the Grand Tour of Livingston is not attractive when they can either A) Drive into the city/ Park and Ride sites or B) take what could be quite a pleasant walk to one of the train stations, much more favourable.

Is the X22 the route that is jointly supported by SPT and the councils in Lothian Region, or am I thinking of another bus service?

Also, I did some work to support my studies years ago at Almondvale Stadium on event days (a group of myself and others had a shuttle bus from Glasgow, and I recall exiting the M8 at the junction for St John's Hospital and a couple of the A roads that has a cloverleaf interchange with the road above/below that croses perpendicular to it), and from what I remember, there is a retail park next door that has a Lidl store. Do any normal buses serve the stadium/retail park (or as close as possible)?