First Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and West Lothian operations)

[CN04NRJ]

Just seen this near Newbridge, the new Patron Saint of buses?

 

[overthewater]

Well the way the operations have been going recently, they need all the help they can get!

 

[stevenedin]

All West Lothian routes don’t appear to be tracking on the app today but they are running.

 

[PaulMc7]

All West Lothian routes don’t appear to be tracking on the app today but they are running.

I've noticed this happen on quite a few occasions to be fair but it's weird how Stirling and Falkirk etc are always fine when West Lothian isn't so it's not like it's an operation specific thing

 

[overthewater]

Has First lost these two Stirling council contracts? I take it they have also failed to win Stirling Park n ride contacts .


PM0000003/650 Cancelled (Short notice)
MIDLAND BLUEBIRD LTD
Route: Stirling, Craigmill or Bus Station to Stirling Bus Station via Riverside, Causewayhead
Service number: C30
Service type: Hail & Ride, Normal Stopping
Effective date: 14 May 2022

PM0000003/649 Cancelled (Short notice)
MIDLAND BLUEBIRD LTD
Route: Bannockburn, Forthview to Cromlix Road End via Braehead, Stirling, Cornton, Bridge of Allan, Dunblane
Service number: C48
Service type: Hail & Ride, Normal Stopping
Effective date: 14 May 2022

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I've noticed this happen on quite a few occasions to be fair but it's weird how Stirling and Falkirk etc are always fine when West Lothian isn't so it's not like it's an operation specific thing

the tracker not showing is the least of the problems.

Has First Lost these two Stirling council contracts? I take it, there have also failed to win Stirling Park n ride contacts .


PM0000003/650 Cancelled (Short notice)
MIDLAND BLUEBIRD LTD
Route: Stirling, Craigmill or Bus Station to Stirling Bus Station via Riverside, Causewayhead
Service number: C30
Service type: Hail & Ride, Normal Stopping
Effective date: 14 May 2022

PM0000003/649 Cancelled (Short notice)
MIDLAND BLUEBIRD LTD
Route: Bannockburn, Forthview to Cromlix Road End via Braehead, Stirling, Cornton, Bridge of Allan, Dunblane
Service number: C48
Service type: Hail & Ride, Normal Stopping
Effective date: 14 May 2022

I’m assuming the park & ride services your referring to are the P1 & P2?

And also, are the C30 & C48 really necessary routes?

 

[Volvodart]

This may be relevant for the P1 and P2 award to Hunters, although there are electric single deckers coming for it now:-

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/councillors-no-choice-approving-13million-26245490

Councillors had ‘no choice’ in approving £1.3million bus contract

ByChris Marzella
11:54, 16 FEB 2022
NEWS


Councillors had “no choice” but to approve a bus contract valued at more than £1.3million despite the vehicles being less green than they would have liked.

Stirling Council’s environment and housing committee had to decide on the Park and Ride contract last week, just four days before it was due to run out.

Only one bid was submitted - with the least environmentally friendly of the vehicle options the only one within budget and therefore put before committee members.

The contract - which had a budget allocation of up to £1,365,000 - kicked in on Monday, February 14, but only came before the committee on Thursday. last week It will run until February 16, 2025 as an 18 -month contract with three optional six-month extensions.

Stirling Council operates two Park and Ride services from the outskirts of the city centre at Castleview and Springkerse.

The P1 bus service operates from Springkerse and the P2 operates from Castleview.

They are seen as a major part of the Local Transport Strategy and the Climate and Nature Emergency Plan to reduce the number of cars travelling within the city centre thereby reducing congestion and emissions.

The committee was told that suppliers were asked to tender prices for three lots for different vehicle types: Lot 1 electric/hydrogen; Lot 2 - Euro 6; Lot 3 - Euro 5.

The Euro 6 standard imposes a further, significant reduction in NOx (Nitrogen Oxide) emissions from diesel engines (a 67 per cent reduction compared to Euro 5) and establishes similar standards for petrol and diesel.

Submissions were only received in respect to Lot 2 and 3, with Lot 3 - the least green of the three options - being the only submission within budget.

Tory councillor Martin Earl said this was particularly concerning given members had been talking about the council’s Alive With Nature programme and the council had passed its own climate emergency plans

 

[Observer]

Not sure who won them, but Hunters (who operated the C30/C48 before First) retained the park and ride contract and bought two 17 plate E200MMCs from Whitelaws to replace the existing stock on the P1 service.

https://www.facebook.com/hunterscoaches/posts/5152093494848630

We welcome our 2 x Euro 6 Low Carbon Emission Buses (LCEB) to the fleet on our Stirling Springkerse Park & Ride Service.

As you will have seen in the press recently we were awarded the contract based on euro 5 however Hunters made the decision to purchase more environmentally friendly vehicles for the contract.

We hope you have an enjoyable journey onboard especially in the comfortable seat belted leather seats.

This may be relevant for the P1 and P2 award to Hunters, although there are electric single deckers coming for it now:-

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/councillors-no-choice-approving-13million-26245490

Where does it mention about electric deckers? Is it Stirling Council buying them?

 

[Volvodart]

Where does it mention about electric deckers? Is it Stirling Council buying them?

From pdf within this link:-

https://www.stirling.gov.uk/roads-t...d associated electric charging infrastructure.

ZEBs will operate on Stirling Council's Park and Ride services around the city of Stirling (P1 (Springkerse) and P2 (Castleview) services)

 

[stevenedin]

I was on 33444 on the X24 today and the engine sounds very bad. It’s a loud rumbling noise with a lot of vibrating. Has anyone experienced this with these E400MMCs before?

It almost sounds like a vintage bus out of the bus museum.

 

[Jordan Adam]

First Scotland East have acquired six Enviro400s (Ex-Abellio London) and one Enviro200 (Ex-Kings Ferry), the Enviro400s are for Livingston so presumably for Bright Bus Tours while the Enviro200 is for Larbert. The E200 is part of a batch of 10 (44641-50) that have been bought by FirstBus.

The fleet numbers and registrations for these are as follows:
32731 | LJ09 CAX
32732 | LJ09 CBF
32733 | LJ09 CBU
32734 | LJ09 CBX
32735 | LJ09 CCE
32736 | LJ09 CAO
44641 | SN15 LKC

Source: https://wmbusphotos.com/Fleetchanges/First.html

 

[PaulMc7]

So the driver shortage is getting worse I see just from the Twitter account. 3 X24s in a row missing at one point and so much more on top of that. Stirling to Alloa with the 51/52 looks more than troubled too.

 

[Mickcloud9]

Yet they have enough drivers to put extra X25’s between Armadale and Livingston to hammer Lothian Country, hilariously most of the x25’s are empty because the demand isn’t there for a service of that frequency. They should maybe cover the shifts they should have out before trying to cut the throat of a rival. The irony is they are slowly cutting their own throats…

 

[stevenedin]

Also I don’t get how some nights the X25 runs around 11pm from Edinburgh but others the last bus is an X24 at around 9:30pm. It’s confusing and it seems to change every week.

 

[JurassicMan]

Also I don’t get how some nights the X25 runs around 11pm from Edinburgh but others the last bus is an X24 at around 9:30pm. It’s confusing and it seems to change every week.

It doesn't "change every week"

Yet they have enough drivers to put extra X25’s between Armadale and Livingston to hammer Lothian Country, hilariously most of the x25’s are empty because the demand isn’t there for a service of that frequency. They should maybe cover the shifts they should have out before trying to cut the throat of a rival. The irony is they are slowly cutting their own throats…

There are no "EXTRA X25s" thats the first nonsense. I'm not sure what "hammer Lothian Country" is alluding to considering Lothian came into West Lothian with 1 goal. Hilariously they've found out it's not been quite as they thought it would be and you have to wonder at the thought process behind removing 275 and sending 276 round so may areas on route to Livingston Centre.

Not sure about "cutting own throats" considering drivers in Livingston have just had a wage increase of £1 an hour that takes them to £12.10 per hour with an added incentive of £25 bonus for working a rest day plus paid right through at weekends. It seems like First have decided to see it through and try address the nationwide driver shortage, certainly anyone leaving now won't be doing it based on financial concerns.

And of course BrightBus has basically shored up the loss of revenue incurred within that depot felt by Lothian Buses presence in West Lothian.

Certainly an interesting few months ahead when new government scheme is rolled out.

 

[Mickcloud9]

It doesn't "change every week"


There are no "EXTRA X25s" thats the first nonsense. I'm not sure what "hammer Lothian Country" is alluding to considering Lothian came into West Lothian with 1 goal. Hilariously they've found out it's not been quite as they thought it would be and you have to wonder at the thought process behind removing 275 and sending 276 round so may areas on route to Livingston Centre.

Not sure about "cutting own throats" considering drivers in Livingston have just had a wage increase of £1 an hour that takes them to £12.10 per hour with an added incentive of £25 bonus for working a rest day plus paid right through at weekends. It seems like First have decided to see it through and try address the nationwide driver shortage, certainly anyone leaving now won't be doing it based on financial concerns.

And of course BrightBus has basically shored up the loss of revenue incurred within that depot felt by Lothian Buses presence in West Lothian.

Certainly an interesting few months ahead when new government scheme is rolled out.

Should be, Lothian Country wage negotiations are ongoing, Plus they receive an advanced rate for working rest days and also I’m pretty sure First are no longer being funded by the government scheme, hence why they can increase or decrease fares… also they are well renowned for the bully boy tactics they employ against competitors, given the experience I have encountered at ‘FIRST’ hand in Lanarkshire, pardon the pun, they flood routes to intimidate other operators into pulling services and then they cut the service when they are left to their own device… they are charlatans. No one and nothing will convince me otherwise.

Also it does change every week, they can’t decide what goes to Armadale and what goes to Blackridge, never mind every week, it changes everyday

And as for the wage rise, that was forced given they are paying agency drivers a lot more than their own drivers.

 

[GusB]

May I remind everyone of the requirement to be respectful of other posters, even if you disagree with what is being said.

Also, please use the "reply" or "quote" options when responding to another post so that it's clear who you are replying to.

Thank you

 

[PaulMc7]

Should be, Lothian Country wage negotiations are ongoing, Plus they receive an advanced rate for working rest days and also I’m pretty sure First are no longer being funded by the government scheme, hence why they can increase or decrease fares… also they are well renowned for the bully boy tactics they employ against competitors, given the experience I have encountered at ‘FIRST’ hand in Lanarkshire, pardon the pun, they flood routes to intimidate other operators into pulling services and then they cut the service when they are left to their own device… they are charlatans. No one and nothing will convince me otherwise.

Also it does change every week, they can’t decide what goes to Armadale and what goes to Blackridge, never mind every week, it changes everyday

And as for the wage rise, that was forced given they are paying agency drivers a lot more than their own drivers.

I agree with a lot of what you've said but I will point out 2 things regarding wages and services:

Agency workers get higher pay in most jobs than normal workers. From my own experience anyway and it usually isn't small differences. Regarding "intimidating" other companies that's just how business works. First don't really lie down to other operators and it's pretty evident with Lothian Country too in the area. First may be a mess from a driver shortage point of view in West Lothian but they've handled the emergence of Lothian Country far better than anyone predicted.

 

[Mickcloud9]

I agree with a lot of what you've said but I will point out 2 things regarding wages and services:

Agency workers get higher pay in most jobs than normal workers. From my own experience anyway and it usually isn't small differences. Regarding "intimidating" other companies that's just how business works. First don't really lie down to other operators and it's pretty evident with Lothian Country too in the area. First may be a mess from a driver shortage point of view in West Lothian but they've handled the emergence of Lothian Country far better than anyone predicted.

I agree that from a business point of view they are both trying to compete, however some tactics are dangerous and ultimately should something go wrong, it’s the driver who will get hammered. From a personal perspective, I worked with and against First out in Lanarkshire, I have been cut up, pulled out on, hung back on, drivers going at 10mph in front of u to attempt to antagonise, I’ve been verbally abused and had rude gestures made towards me, all at the hands of First and the bully tactics they employ to intimidate competitors.

As I see it we are all in the same job, earning enough to keep our heads above water, I have never taken a bus fare from a bus driver of any company as I view them as part of the brotherhood or the family, life’s hard enough without having to deal with this kind of appalling behaviour from your ‘fellow driver’ and on occasions, former colleagues… In the end, come hell or high tide, any company out there will replace you tomorrow if the need arises. You are only an employee, there are very few companies who actually value and attempt to retain their staff.

 

[CraigLockhart]

It would surely make more financial sense to bin West Lothian (it must be losing a lot of money) and just do the Bright Bus Tours. Find a site near Edinburgh to store and fuel the buses and any maintenance could be done at another depot.

 

[stevenedin]

Everytime I’ve been in First buses in West Lothian recently they have had decent loads on them so I don’t think that it should be binned. They just need to work on the reliability.

 

[Jordan Adam]

It would surely make more financial sense to bin West Lothian (it must be losing a lot of money) and just do the Bright Bus Tours. Find a site near Edinburgh to store and fuel the buses and any maintenance could be done at another depot.

Consider this... In 2017/18 West Lothian was the most profitable area in First Bus and was seeing significant passenger increases with of 21% growth recorded on the Service 21 (Edinburgh - Fauldhouse) and a 7% growth on the 27/28. They then followed this up with a network review in 2018 that significantly simplified the network, improved journey times, increased frequencies to those areas where they were seeing growth and generally made far better use of resources. So it's understandable why it's a region First would want to hold on to and they've generally done a pretty good job at that. It's unfortunate that they're having such severe driver issues at the moment but with the recent pay increases and recruitment stepping up it will hopefully improve.

 

[PaulMc7]

Everytime I’ve been in First buses in West Lothian recently they have had decent loads on them so I don’t think that it should be binned. They just need to work on the reliability.

The problem is if they work on reliability will people still use the services? Even the 21 that's 1 an hour has had buses missing an awful lot. It might be a case where to survive in the area they focus on specific areas and give up others. West Lothian isn't somewhere I know particularly well but I do know from a couple of trips to Livingston in recent times buses were missing all over the place.

What level of service is realistic right now? Honestly not much of one

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Everytime I’ve been in First buses in West Lothian recently they have had decent loads on them so I don’t think that it should be binned. They just need to work on the reliability.

What confuses me with FSE is why buses go there to die. Why isn’t there the same level of investment as there is with other companies like Glasgow. Even Aberdeen is getting new hydrogen Streetdecks and new singles are due while FSE is getting cast offs from Glasgow.

I used the X38 for a time last year and it seen very good loading. Most buses heading to Edinburgh were very busy with another bus behind carrying similar busy loads. Is that enough though? I see other services carrying fresh air. I’m not sure with FSE what the solution is. I sometimes wonder if Lothian would be better just occupying the Lothian area and First concentrate of Glasgow and Aberdeen.

 

[stevenedin]

First West Lothian got new Enviro400MMCs in 2016 and new StreetLites in 2014/2015 time. I do agree that they possibly need some new buses but most of the buses they currently have aren’t too old.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

First West Lothian got new Enviro400MMCs in 2016 and new StreetLites in 2014/2015 time. I do agree that they possibly need some new buses but most of the buses they currently have aren’t too old.

I agree the age profile has improved in recent years but FSE seems to be the graveyard for buses. A lot of the Streetlites weren’t bought new and were actually cast offs from down South also. Not old but equally not new. It seems they don’t bring in the revenue to justify new buses.

FSE also lost a fair number of their E400MMCs to Glasgow not to mention they also did see a number of 16 year old B7RLEs from Glasgow. They are never the pioneer for new vehicles. You’ve still got 54 plate solars going about versus what Lothian can provide. It seems it would be better to just cut their loses.

 

[stevenedin]

Why does the age of a bus matter as long as it’s in good working order and the service can still be provided?

 

[PaulMc7]

Why does the age of a bus matter as long as it’s in good working order and the service can still be provided?

That's why it matters IMO. A lot of First's older buses are miles off the quality they need to be. Old tat doesn't entice people to ditch cars and use buses. It's not just exclusive to West Lothian with First mind you.

First could do miles better if they done 3 things:

1) Better maintenance
2) Ran what they have the drivers to run
3) Better customer service through a quality app that worked properly and showed cancellations and their social media feeds

 

[stevenedin]

I agree that there needs to be an improvement but having a bus service is better than none at all. If First were to withdraw from West Lothian I can’t see other operators taking on the routes which they provide. Maybe in some places but there would be a decrease in services run which would provide less choice for passengers.

 

[PaulMc7]

I agree that there needs to be an improvement but having a bus service is better than none at all. If First were to withdraw from West Lothian I can’t see other operators taking on the routes which they provide. Maybe in some places but there would be a decrease in services run which would provide less choice for passengers.

I agree that they should stay but there needs to be realistic timetables and soon.