First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[dodecahedron67]

A policy I believe they have already broken.

Indeed, for the Bee Network

 

[Goldfish62]

Indeed, for the Bee Network

That's different. That's a specific contractual requirement for TfGM and ownership of the vehicles will pass between whoever operates the franchise at the time.

First's commitment is for their commercial local bus services.

Not sure but both routes (with the new extensions to tinners) exceed 50km in one direction.

I was thinking in terms of actual bus mileage. Route length isn't the issue, it's how many miles the buses typically do in a day.

ADL claims its new E400EV can do up to 260 miles a day. Take that with a pinch of salt for a number of reasons (battery degradation, driving style, climate, route topography, average speeds) and assume realistically it'll be more like 180-200 miles (290-320).

 

[richw]

Don't forget that in order to get new buses now even if it was feasible,they would need to be electric, which isnt really about to happen anytime soon on such long routes

We’ve been told at stagecoach in Plymouth by our MD most of our routes are too long or too rural to suit any current electric offering whilst at the same time being viable, so will receive newer diesels released by EVs being introduced elsewhere.

I imagine the same challenges would apply to operators in Cornwall .

A policy I believe they have already broken.

Not broken.

The policy permits new diesel vehicles where contract specification requires it.

 

[Goldfish62]

We’ve been told at stagecoach in Plymouth by our MD most of our routes are too long or too rural to suit any current electric offering whilst at the same time being viable, so will receive newer diesels released by EVs being introduced elsewhere.

I imagine the same challenges would apply to operators in Cornwall .

The whole purpose of ZEBRA 2 is to move away from funding urban routes, which are proven for EVs (1500 and counting currently in service in London alone) and to instead provide funding for operation on more challenging longer and rural routes.

Stagecoach have already listed the routes that the EVs will be going on and one is the 21 Ilfracombe - Westward Ho! which is the same length as the T1 Penzance - Truro.

It's odd that the MD mentions viability, because the grant makes up the bulk of the capital cost difference between new diesel and electric and EV running costs are cheaper than diesel. Maybe he means that the routes wouldn't be viable for new diesels either.

 

[richw]

The whole purpose of ZEBRA 2 is to move away from funding urban routes, which are proven for EVs (1500 and counting currently in service in London alone) and to instead provide funding for operation on more challenging longer and rural routes.

Stagecoach have already listed the routes that the EVs will be going on and one is the 21 Ilfracombe - Westward Ho! which is the same length as the T1 Penzance - Truro.

It's odd that the MD mentions viability, because the grant makes up the bulk of the capital cost difference between new diesel and electric and EV running costs are cheaper than diesel. Maybe he means that the routes wouldn't be viable for new diesels either.

It’s not just down to individual trip length, but daily mileage of each vehicle diagram. The vehicle workings in a Plymouth are high mileage and intense compared to elsewhere.
15802 for example which was recently transferred to Plymouth has half the mileage compared to newer buses that have been in Plymouth since stagecoach took over.

 

[Goldfish62]

It’s not just down to individual trip length, but daily mileage of each vehicle diagram. The vehicle workings in a Plymouth are high mileage and intense compared to elsewhere.
15802 for example which was recently transferred to Plymouth has half the mileage compared to newer buses that have been in Plymouth since stagecoach took over.

I couldn't agree more. Trip length is largely irrelevant (unless it's long distance express work, or opp charging with small batteries) hence my questions to another poster above.

 

[JKP]

No mention has to my knowledge so far been mentioned about infrastructure costs. You cannot have EVs without this which can be substantial. For rural routes the addition of such costs would likely make them unviable.

 

[Goldfish62]

No mention has to my knowledge so far been mentioned about infrastructure costs. You cannot have EVs without this which can be substantial. For rural routes the addition of such costs would likely make them unviable.

Under ZEBRA 2 the DfT provides 75% of the capital cost of the infrastructure, with the rest made up by local authority or operator contributions. I'll say again, ZEBRA 2 is specifically targeted at rural routes, and there are plenty of rural routes in this round which have received funding.

The biggest headache with the infrastructure is often the DNO (Distribution Network Operator) connection, ie connections to the mains with any beefing up of supply. But it's a one-off. Once it's done, it's done. it doesn't need repeating when the fleet is updated.

Overall, it's certainly all interesting stuff, and with considerable challenges, but the industry has always been up for major challenges.

 

[vla50]

How much will the PVR drop by after the changes?

 

[83G/84D]

I was just wondering when the revised T2A timetable starts which is the replacement for the Sunseeker? There are no specific dates of operation in the online timetable book and it is not showing on bustimes.
One would presume it would be certain dates during the summer rather than April through to September.

 

[Goldfish62]

I was just wondering when the revised T2A timetable starts which is the replacement for the Sunseeker? There are no specific dates of operation in the online timetable book and it is not showing on bustimes.
One would presume it would be certain dates during the summer rather than April through to September.

According to the timetable book it's currently operating and runs daily inc bank holidays!

 

[83G/84D]

According to the timetable book it's currently operating and runs daily inc bank holidays!

Online timetable says excluding bank holidays. I went out yesterday afternoon to see it but it didn’t appear.

Sorry my error does run on bank holidays.

 

[robbob700]

According to the Go Cornwall website this starts on 26th May.
https://www.gocornwallbus.co.uk/tfc-update-31st-march

New Service operating between St Ives and Hayle. This will replace the Sunseeker service that operated in summer 2023. Note the start date will be Sunday 26th May.

 

[83G/84D]

According to the Go Cornwall website this starts on 26th May.
https://www.gocornwallbus.co.uk/tfc-update-31st-march

Thanks, explains why I didn’t see it yesterday.

 

[Goldfish62]

As previously mentioned on this thread there is now a combined leaflet for the Lands End Coaster and Atlantic Coaster usefully (not) without timetables. To get to the timetables you're supposed to scan the relevant QR code. I've scanned the Lands End one expecting the current timetable to be displayed. Instead it took me to the Lands End Coaster section of the ABB website. I then clicked on "maps and timetables" - which took me back to the PDF of the leaflet I started with! It's almost as if FSW don't want people knowing when these important tourist services run.

 

[Snozzel]

As previously mentioned on this thread there is now a combined leaflet for the Lands End Coaster and Atlantic Coaster usefully (not) without timetables. To get to the timetables you're supposed to scan the relevant QR code. I've scanned the Lands End one expecting the current timetable to be displayed. Instead it took me to the Lands End Coaster section of the ABB website. I then clicked on "maps and timetables" - which took me back to the PDF of the leaflet I started with! It's almost as if FSW don't want people knowing when these important tourist services run.

I dont think with the changes implemented across cornwall or the horror story of trying to read the timetables ,especially the tinners, they want people knowing any bus times on any route.

 

[83G/84D]

Did anyone observe the Lands End Coaster over the recent school holidays to see how many people were using it? Granted the weather wasn’t great however it would be interesting to have some sort of idea of how loadings were.

 

[MarkC]

I dont think with the changes implemented across cornwall or the horror story of trying to read the timetables ,especially the tinners, they want people knowing any bus times on any route.

It is like the Dartmoor Explorer. That service had great potential if only First actually told people about it!

 

[richw]

It is like the Dartmoor Explorer. That service had great potential if only First actually told people about it!

And when drivers tried to shout about Dartmoor we could got called in and told not to. Between the lines I got the impression it was making the marketing team look bad. I was booked to drive on the Saturday, I shouted about the route on local Facebook community groups on a Thursday and Friday in February and then that Saturday I carried 45 passengers!
It was soul destroying driving around empty. The whole part of the job enjoyment is talking and engaging with people for me.

 

[Andyh82]

I dont think with the changes implemented across cornwall or the horror story of trying to read the timetables ,especially the tinners, they want people knowing any bus times on any route.

The bus times for all services will all be in the TfC complete book?

 

[Goldfish62]

And when drivers tried to shout about Dartmoor we could got called in and told not to. Between the lines I got the impression it was making the marketing team look bad. I was booked to drive on the Saturday, I shouted about the route on local Facebook community groups on a Thursday and Friday in February and then that Saturday I carried 45 passengers!
It was soul destroying driving around empty. The whole part of the job enjoyment is talking and engaging with people for me.

I really could not understand how lacklustre the whole operation was. As you say it had great potential. In reality even knowing about it it just wasn't worth making a long journey to ride on it because it was often a lottery as to whether it was actually going to turn up. Then there were the vehicles. 4 Geminis in a bright, smart livery allocated for the route, but more often than not a hotchpotch of vehicles, sometimes without the appropriate blind display, were used.

It's almost as if at least one of the teams involved (commercial, operations, engineering) didn't want it to succeed.

But at least it was never as farcical as Hulley's of Baslow's Peak Explorer.

The bus times for all services will all be in the TfC complete book?

That'll be the book that FSW are pressing the council to stop producing due to cost.

 

[Snozzel]

The bus times for all services will all be in the TfC complete book?

They are indeed all in the new book, with lots of errors and omissions and a timing that looks like it was devised by letting headless chickens decide which minutes a bus departs at. What is wrong with a regular set of departure times on a route. Sometimes the bus will be late and sometimes it will be early and have to wait time, but lots of the current timetables are just bizarre even as a driver.

 

[Goldfish62]

They are indeed all in the new book, with lots of errors and omissions and a timing that looks like it was devised by letting headless chickens decide which minutes a bus departs at. What is wrong with a regular set of departure times on a route. Sometimes the bus will be late and sometimes it will be early and have to wait time, but lots of the current timetables are just bizarre even as a driver.

Just you wait until First bring their AI timetables to Cornwall...

 

[richw]

It's almost as if at least one of the teams involved (commercial, operations, engineering) didn't want it to succeed.

The lack was in the middle layer, in particular the traffic office. The commercial director and most of the drivers had great passion and enthusiasm. The bits in the middle layer didnt seem to support.
We always felt an inconvenience as drivers being outstationed so far from the rest of the operation.

I had a former Dartmoor regular on my bus at my new employer a few days ago, we were reminiscing and he named 3 drivers on top of myself that he felt made the service. I let him know Countrybus are launching a service shortly covering much of the route. He isn’t an enthusiast but someone who enjoys walking and wild camping on the moors. By the end of the journey he’d found all the countrybus information that will get him up to the moors again so was pleased I let him know.

 

[Busaholic]

Just you wait until First bring their AI timetables to Cornwall...

They'll probably call them 'smart' timetables to add to the ever-growing list of things so branded which are anything but e.g. electricity meters and, in particular, motorways. Seriously, I don't understand why they are tacking that way when the considerable drawbacks already encountered, not least by themselves, don't appear to have been solved. I'm beginning to think First's bus operations have been subsumed by a crack Japanese kamikaze operation.

 

[farwest]

They'll probably call them 'smart' timetables to add to the ever-growing list of things so branded which are anything but e.g. electricity meters and, in particular, motorways. Seriously, I don't understand why they are tacking that way when the considerable drawbacks already encountered, not least by themselves, don't appear to have been solved. I'm beginning to think First's bus operations have been subsumed by a crack Japanese kamikaze operation.

The latest timetables for the U1 and U4 are a complete mess. They used to be reasonably clock face but not any more. You need to be carrying a timetable with you to be sure when the next bus is due. Just need First Kernow to bring in another awful corporate livery and we will know he dark ages have returned to Cornwall.

 

[Snozzel]

I was told by the boss of south that another countrywide livery is due to be introduced at the end of the year.

 

[Busaholic]

I was told by the boss of south that another countrywide livery is due to be introduced at the end of the year.

I shall now be able to sleep easy in my bed (not)

 

[Mollman]

I was told by the boss of south that another countrywide livery is due to be introduced at the end of the year.

I guess Buses of Somerset branding would be diluted by the generic Electrics livery anyway once ZEBRA2 vehicles are delivered, in the same way Leeds City, York and Network Norwich brands are at the moment.

 

[Goldfish62]

I guess Buses of Somerset branding would be diluted by the generic Electrics livery anyway once ZEBRA2 vehicles are delivered, in the same way Leeds City, York and Network Norwich brands are at the moment.

Although the Portsmouth ones are in a version of Solent livery.