First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[M803UYA]

I didn't want to say. But yes, I understood that at least one other large group bid for the contract, despite assertions otherwise on this thread.

Sale of the whole BoS operation to Stagecoach pending?

Note that the FSW/South Head of Ops is moving to Stagecoach early next year.

More observational knowledge of the area really. First do the bus work and the likes of Berrys stick firmly to coach work. Since their early 1990s adventures onto Taunton town services they've not gone into scheduled bus operation in a big way. There's been the odd route here/there tying up a vehicle or two but they're school contract/private hire/express coach focused. Ridlers and Redwoods do the same type of work - Ridlers do local bus work in Minehead but it ties up a single vehicle.

Interesting this other group, Dartline does come into Taunton on the 20, and drivers on those terms and conditions wouldn't earn as much as Plymouth Citybus drivers.

Going back to Cawlett days, Taunton was the strongest of the Southern National depots with its compliment of work. The only three decent commercial corridors emanated from there. The 21 kept Bridgwater going, but that's now under Taunton and many of the transferred drivers have departed elsewhere. Ridlers has been a beneficiary according to former colleagues who've also started there.

In a sale situation - with Bridgwater's unique work and Yeovil's work, there'd be around 10 buses chopped off the current vehicle requirement which would want someone else to replace. All the rest could feasibly run from Taunton. With the 54 it's been tried before and they reverted to some Yeovil based workings.

Guess we shall find out in due course.

 

[Paperyostrich]

I didn't want to say. But yes, I understood that at least one other large group bid for the contract, despite assertions otherwise on this thread.

Sale of the whole BoS operation to Stagecoach pending?

Note that the FSW/South Head of Ops is moving to Stagecoach early next year.

More observational knowledge of the area really. First do the bus work and the likes of Berrys stick firmly to coach work. Since their early 1990s adventures onto Taunton town services they've not gone into scheduled bus operation in a big way. There's been the odd route here/there tying up a vehicle or two but they're school contract/private hire/express coach focused. Ridlers and Redwoods do the same type of work - Ridlers do local bus work in Minehead but it ties up a single vehicle.

Interesting this other group, Dartline does come into Taunton on the 20, and drivers on those terms and conditions wouldn't earn as much as Plymouth Citybus drivers.

Going back to Cawlett days, Taunton was the strongest of the Southern National depots with its compliment of work. The only three decent commercial corridors emanated from there. The 21 kept Bridgwater going, but that's now under Taunton and many of the transferred drivers have departed elsewhere. Ridlers has been a beneficiary according to former colleagues who've also started there.

In a sale situation - with Bridgwater's unique work and Yeovil's work, there'd be around 10 buses chopped off the current vehicle requirement which would want someone else to replace. All the rest could feasibly run from Taunton. With the 54 it's been tried before and they reverted to some Yeovil based workings.

Guess we shall find out in due course.

Buses of Somerset isn't going anywhere. They are introducing 'Tap on Tap Off' next year and the council and First have put in a bid for Zebra 2 funding from the government for electrification in Somerset (I belive this will be Taunton, Yeovil and Minehead)

First obviously see a long term future in Somerset (even Yeovil was mentioned as being a key market for First and is here to stay!) I just don't understand their strategy in the county.

Of course, I have no source for this, so apologies if I am not supposed to post, but I do know First is in advanced discussions with Somerset Council for expanding work in Yeovil so we will see what happens there. (I believe there is a lot of interest in the 68 and a new town route)

 

[M803UYA]

Buses of Somerset isn't going anywhere. They are introducing 'Tap on Tap Off' next year and the council and First have put in a bid for Zebra 2 funding from the government for electrification in Somerset (I belive this will be Taunton, Yeovil and Minehead)

First obviously see a long term future in Somerset (even Yeovil was mentioned as being a key market for First and is here to stay!) I just don't understand their strategy in the county.

Of course, I have no source for this, so apologies if I am not supposed to post, but I do know First is in advanced discussions with Somerset Council for expanding work in Yeovil so we will see what happens there. (I believe there is a lot of interest in the 68 and a new town route)

This optimism isn't matched by the on ground reality. The company has been poorly managed for some time now, and there seems to be little to no strategy for development besides continual hacking away at the vehicle requirements. If they have their way, there won't even be a proper site for Yeovil - that'll worsen reliability with the elderly fleet they're operating as it'll take 90 minutes for a replacement vehicle to arrive (assuming there is one available)

There's frequent non arrival on service 21 as my partner will attest to. She travels the route to Taunton once/twice a month and each time she goes for a bus, it's never the bus she's waiting for. We have had an entire summer of 28's being pulled just so the company can play open toppers along the Bristol channel.

The fleet is an absolute joke. In their almost 25 years of stewardship they've bought less than 10 brand new buses (two batches of short Enviro 200s). They spent a lot of time and money eliminating competition, only to cut the frequencies and jack up the fares again. Bus users and stakeholders are utterly sick of the company - and they refused to meet stakeholders in Bridgwater when the depot was being shut. Granted, those stakeholders don't pay money but they represent people who do. Electric buses are very nice, but some functioning diesel ones which aren't two years from the scrapheap might be a priority.

Having enough buses and drivers with which to maintain the timetables they've registered with the traffic commissioner would be an excellent starting point. Those stationary buses will be able to go somewhere, then.

 

[Paperyostrich]

This optimism isn't matched by the on ground reality. The company has been poorly managed for some time now, and there seems to be little to no strategy for development besides continual hacking away at the vehicle requirements. If they have their way, there won't even be a proper site for Yeovil - that'll worsen reliability with the elderly fleet they're operating as it'll take 90 minutes for a replacement vehicle to arrive (assuming there is one available)

There's frequent non arrival on service 21 as my partner will attest to. She travels the route to Taunton once/twice a month and each time she goes for a bus, it's never the bus she's waiting for. We have had an entire summer of 28's being pulled just so the company can play open toppers along the Bristol channel.

The fleet is an absolute joke. In their almost 25 years of stewardship they've bought less than 10 brand new buses (two batches of short Enviro 200s). They spent a lot of time and money eliminating competition, only to cut the frequencies and jack up the fares again. Bus users and stakeholders are utterly sick of the company - and they refused to meet stakeholders in Bridgwater when the depot was being shut. Granted, those stakeholders don't pay money but they represent people who do. Electric buses are very nice, but some functioning diesel ones which aren't two years from the scrapheap might be a priority.

Having enough buses and drivers with which to maintain the timetables they've registered with the traffic commissioner would be an excellent starting point. Those stationary buses will be able to go somewhere, then.

In defence of Buses of Somerset, lost milage is well down, they are now fully staffed and they are also at break even/small profit financially, hence the tap on tap off, and Zebra 2 bid and the looking for extra work. If the Zebra 2 funding does happen then that will pave the way for new electric buses across the county and there has been talk of fleet replacement in Somerset for a while. The new electric buses around First South and the wider empire coming in will free up a lot of mid life vehicles for other op-co's and the better financial position at BoS will probably make better quality buses more attractive acquisition in First's view.

Problem is, for over a decade now, Somerset has been the problem child of First and last year racked up a £9 Million loss. Hence the lack of investment. First won't invest if it won't get its moneys worth. The tide is turning now and First seem to be keen so we will have to wait and see.

As I said, First say they have a long term future in Somerset and that includes Yeovil so they must see some promise!

 

[B7RLE]

The council and First have put in a bid for Zebra 2 funding from the government for electrification in Somerset .

This is true as the MD stated this in are a recent Company Video update !

 

[M803UYA]

In defence of Buses of Somerset, lost milage is well down, they are now fully staffed and they are also at break even/small profit financially, hence the tap on tap off, and Zebra 2 bid and the looking for extra work. If the Zebra 2 funding does happen then that will pave the way for new electric buses across the county and there has been talk of fleet replacement in Somerset for a while. The new electric buses around First South and the wider empire coming in will free up a lot of mid life vehicles for other op-co's and the better financial position at BoS will probably make better quality buses more attractive acquisition in First's view.

Problem is, for over a decade now, Somerset has been the problem child of First and last year racked up a £9 Million loss. Hence the lack of investment. First won't invest if it won't get its moneys worth. The tide is turning now and First seem to be keen so we will have to wait and see.

As I said, First say they have a long term future in Somerset and that includes Yeovil so they must see some promise!

I hope I'm wrong. It would be great for things to improve and for the company to achieve what it should. Recall all the excitement when Buses of Somerset launched and for a long time it seemed like they were doing great things and looking to develop the operation.

 

[Goldfish62]

In defence of Buses of Somerset, lost milage is well down, they are now fully staffed and they are also at break even/small profit financially, hence the tap on tap off, and Zebra 2 bid and the looking for extra work. If the Zebra 2 funding does happen then that will pave the way for new electric buses across the county and there has been talk of fleet replacement in Somerset for a while. The new electric buses around First South and the wider empire coming in will free up a lot of mid life vehicles for other op-co's and the better financial position at BoS will probably make better quality buses more attractive acquisition in First's view.

Problem is, for over a decade now, Somerset has been the problem child of First and last year racked up a £9 Million loss. Hence the lack of investment. First won't invest if it won't get its moneys worth. The tide is turning now and First seem to be keen so we will have to wait and see.

As I said, First say they have a long term future in Somerset and that includes Yeovil so they must see some promise!

Tap on Tap off is First group policy - all bus OpCos are to have it rolled out.

I'm not convinced about the current financial state of the operation given that the council is using temporary emergency funding through BSIP+ to prop up several routes including the busy route 28.

Good news about the ZEBRA2 bid of course, but of course as we have seen in both Milton Keynes and Stevenage with Arriva, being awarded the funding is not a commitment to using it. Also, electrification was a council BSIP commitment, so it makes sense to partner with the largest operator, whoever they happen to be.

 

[randyrippley]

As I said, First say they have a long term future in Somerset and that includes Yeovil so they must see some promise!

With a PVR of just seven vehicles in Yeovil (as quoted in the recent reports about the garage demolition)?
It's not worth them even thinking about, too small to be significant.
Best thing that could happen would be for SouthWest Coaches to take over Yeovil, and possibly Taunton. Would fit nicely with what they already have

 

[CD]

With a PVR of just seven vehicles in Yeovil (as quoted in the recent reports about the garage demolition)?
It's not worth them even thinking about, too small to be significant.
Best thing that could happen would be for SouthWest Coaches to take over Yeovil, and possibly Taunton. Would fit nicely with what they already have

PVR 4 on a Saturday. It has got that bad.

 

[Paperyostrich]

With a PVR of just seven vehicles in Yeovil (as quoted in the recent reports about the garage demolition)?
It's not worth them even thinking about, too small to be significant.
Best thing that could happen would be for SouthWest Coaches to take over Yeovil, and possibly Taunton. Would fit nicely with what they already

The comment about Yeovil was quoted directly by the MD himself, who said in his own words it is a key market for First and they are committed. I know it could be just talk but we'll see

The 28 funding is more for less well used journeys. First wanted to put it back to hourly like it used to be, but the council are not keen

 

[Goldfish62]

The 28 funding is more for less well used journeys. First wanted to put it back to hourly like it used to be, but the council are not keen

Wanting to slash the frequency by 50% and therefore initiating a spiral of decline suggests it's more than just less well used journeys that are the issue. It suggests the whole service is running at a significant loss.

 

[M803UYA]

The comment about Yeovil was quoted directly by the MD himself, who said in his own words it is a key market for First and they are committed. I know it could be just talk but we'll see

The 28 funding is more for less well used journeys. First wanted to put it back to hourly like it used to be, but the council are not keen

It's good that it's been said, but it isn't matched by their actions to date. It depends how much you believe in what people say. Other times, high up people in a company will say the opposite of what's happening either to deflect attention or because they're not allowed to say things.

Take the former former Prime Minister for instance. His lips are moving so that's how I know he's lying!

The 28 is a service that should be half hourly, at least in the summer months. Every single time competition has arrived drivers and vehicles are mobilised to defend the corridor and it is always doubled in frequency and fares pulled down. The last competition to arrive was in 2009, when Webberbus began to cater for the left behind passengers along the route with an hourly timetable slotted to the alternate hour to the 28. If the company pulled off the corridor another operation might well move in to fill that breach.

Wanting to slash the frequency by 50% and therefore initiating a spiral of decline suggests it's more than just less well used journeys that are the issue. It suggests the whole service is running at a significant loss.

no different to what company has done in the last few years. It's cynical profiteering. Given that it's a rail less connection and given there is a large holiday camp at one end of the route, I fail to see how it doesn't carry passengers. I can see why it might not in the winter months, but for more than half of the year there is plenty of people in Minehead to make use of the service on top of the local traffic.

All their cutbacks ensure is further decline, then further changes/cutbacks next time around and eventually the total closure of the operation.

 

[randyrippley]

The comment about Yeovil was quoted directly by the MD himself, who said in his own words it is a key market for First and they are committed. I know it could be just talk but we'll see

This also was said by the MD himself

Simon Goff, managing director at First Bus South, said: "Following the transfer of some Yeovil routes to First Bus' neighbouring West and Wales business, Buses of Somerset's Yeovil operations have reduced significantly from 43 buses to nine,

from https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/historic-yeovil-bus-depot-building-8769158

Nine buses (sorry the seven I quoted earlier was bad memory) reduced from 43 clearly cannot by any sense of reality be described as a "key market". Along with the garage demolition attempt it sounds just like classic asset stripping: run down and liquidate.

 

[M803UYA]

This also was said by the MD himself

from https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/historic-yeovil-bus-depot-building-8769158

Nine buses (sorry the seven I quoted earlier was bad memory) reduced from 43 clearly cannot by any sense of reality be described as a "key market". Along with the garage demolition attempt it sounds just like classic asset stripping: run down and liquidate.

Was a higher figure in 1999 when they took over - 63 on allocation. By 2001 they'd discarded 10 of those but 13 of the allocation was outstationed each night. Nothing's outstationed now. The work is mostly still there, but First aren't doing it. The depot was very heavy on contracted work but it ran it reliably and it must have made some sort of return and covered the general overheads. The current situation nothing is covered and it shows.

As an aside my profile pic details one such instance of this lost work - today the route is the 5/CR5 but then was known as the 216.

 

[richw]

This is true as the MD stated this in are a recent Company Video update !

Must be true then, but the companies actions don’t match his words.

Best thing that could happen would be for SouthWest Coaches to take over Yeovil, and possibly Taunton. Would fit nicely with what they already have

Let’s see who gets the park and ride contract. Whoever it is might see an opportunity to expand further into the town.

As I said, First say they have a long term future in Somerset and that includes Yeovil so they must see some promise!

As above, their actions don’t match their words.

 

[M803UYA]

Let’s see who gets the park and ride contract. Whoever it is might see an opportunity to expand further into the town.

If this new operator wanted to target the three best commercial corridors then a fleet of 13 buses would be sufficient. A 20 vehicle depot (to allow some spares) in Taunton to handle those three routes and the Park & Ride would take some shifting - exiting the town would be the more likely outcome for First in that scenario.

 

[richw]

A 20 vehicle depot (to allow some spares) in Taunton to handle those three routes and the Park & Ride would take some shifting

There’s a nice ready to go purpose built depot sitting empty not far up the road in Bridgwater. Somebody with backing could potentially come in and lease/ buy that depot

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There’s a nice ready to go purpose built depot sitting empty not far up the road in Bridgwater. Somebody with backing could potentially come in and lease/ buy that depot

I thought I'd heard that SPS were using that depot?

 

[M803UYA]

I thought I'd heard that SPS were using that depot?

I've been told the same but haven't been around to investigate on one of my visits to the town! This could be possible very soon. It wouldn't come as a surprise, as there is a post construction phase to Hinkley C in which the current park and ride sites become permanent sites for moving people to/from the power station. So after they've built the green nuclear power station a residual fleet of buses and drivers will stay on. They'd want a depot for that, and the First site would be the right size for such an operation. All other SPS drivers have the option to relocate to Suffolk once they've built the power station.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I've been told the same but haven't been around to investigate on one of my visits to the town! This could be possible very soon. It wouldn't come as a surprise, as there is a post construction phase to Hinkley C in which the current park and ride sites become permanent sites for moving people to/from the power station. So after they've built the green nuclear power station a residual fleet of buses and drivers will stay on. They'd want a depot for that, and the First site would be the right size for such an operation. All other SPS drivers have the option to relocate to Suffolk once they've built the power station.

Thats an interesting promise given that no contract has yet been awarded for Sizewell, so there’s no guarantee SPS will win it!

 

[henairs]

This also was said by the MD himself

from https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/historic-yeovil-bus-depot-building-8769158

Nine buses (sorry the seven I quoted earlier was bad memory) reduced from 43 clearly cannot by any sense of reality be described as a "key market". Along with the garage demolition attempt it sounds just like classic asset stripping: run down and liquidate.

Seems odd Mr Goff states several Yeovil services have passed to WOE operation as its just the 1 which is the 77.
So not sure who to believe ? Sounds rather political which does not bode well.

 

[M803UYA]

Thats an interesting promise given that no contract has yet been awarded for Sizewell, so there’s no guarantee SPS will win it!

4 year old information - semi-reliable provided internally by management to their staff.

But thanks for the correction, wasn't aware there wasn't a contract!

 

[Callum15632]

Seems odd Mr Goff states several Yeovil services have passed to WOE operation as its just the 1 which is the 77.
So not sure who to believe ? Sounds rather political which does not bode well.

And the 77A so 2 services passed to West of England Operation.

 

[Goldfish62]

Seems odd Mr Goff states several Yeovil services have passed to WOE operation as its just the 1 which is the 77.
So not sure who to believe ? Sounds rather political which does not bode well.

If you're an MD of a large company "politics" is always going to loom large in everything you say in public.

 

[Peter Philips]

And the 77A so 2 services passed to WOE Operation.

And the Buses of Somerset Wrantage-Strode College 55 - which Yeovil operated the afternoon journey on (think Taunton may have run the morning one?) often using a bus that has earlier been on what is now the Dorset CR4 - also transferred to West of England so technically three services.

 

[henairs]

And the 77A so 2 services passed to WOE Operation.

As their’s only a single 77A service each day which is largely covering the 77 route bar using Ilchester road in Yeovil and omitting sleepy Kingsdon it barely registers as a separate service being only a slight variation on the usual transit.
The route I forgot and is more worth mentioning is the 55 which Wells now operate which in turn becomes part of the 77 service and finishes up as the vehicle for 77A returning to Street to form I believe a 29 service so kind of two as you state.
Not sure who operates the Wrantage college run late afternoon now though.

 

[CD]

As their’s only a single 77A service each day which is largely covering the 77 route bar using Ilchester road in Yeovil and omitting sleepy Kingsdon it barely registers as a separate service being only a slight variation on the usual transit.
The route I forgot and is more worth mentioning is the 55 which Wells now operate which in turn becomes part of the 77 service and finishes up as the vehicle for 77A returning to Street to form I believe a 29 service so kind of two as you state.
Not sure who operates the Wrantage college run late afternoon now though.

The 1705 55 is worked by the vehicle off the 1610 77a.

 

[JKP]

Free bus travel day on the 28 Taunton to Minehead next Tuesday 19th December.

 

[Ryan H]

Free bus travel day on the 28 Taunton to Minehead next Tuesday 19th December.

and 25, 58/58A

and 25, 54,58/58A

 

[markymark2000]

They are introducing 'Tap on Tap Off' next year

That's not bad considering First said that the rollout was completed back in April 2023!

First Bus completes UK wide rollout of Tap On, Tap Off ticketing technology across entire fleet

First Bus completes UK wide

www.firstgroupplc.com

First Bus completes UK wide rollout of Tap On, Tap Off ticketing technology across entire fleet

That was just one big, fat lie wasn't it! I'm sure the shareholders love being lied to like that.