At least these pictures don't have the file names under them like the Exmoor ones which included 'cropped' under one pic! It's like the work experience kids have been put in charge of the rebrand! The website is just awful. Never thought we'd be saying that the Stagecoach website is not the worst out there!Looks like the X52 is confirmed for a 25 May start this year with the former Lands End half tops.
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Continuing with Weymouth, I was talking to one of the drivers the other day and supposedly there is a want to get rid if all the single deckers (so all the Streetlite's) and become an all decker depot. What deckers we would get is unknown, although they'd need to be able to handle the X53/51, something the E400MMC'S have the power for just supposedly their small radiators let them down and can overheat.
Also electric vehicles would be nice but naturally weymouth depot is too small for the switch to electric, there's barely enough space for what they have got at the moment if you've ever been past the depot the lack of space is clearly visible.
As for weymouth getting a new depot you'd need to find some land to build it on in Weymouth, and I can't see many sites that would be big enough in the area.
Lastly another difference in service levels this year is the 12 to Littlesea Holiday Park, not only does the last service to the park now go back in service rather than straight to the depot (handy for people who finish at 6:00 PM), but also peak season service enhancements (a bus every 30 mins, doubling the frequency) applies to the current Easter holidays and half-term/Whitsun as well. Though that will be more Haven's decision than anything as they pay for the service.
Also electric vehicles would be nice but naturally weymouth depot is too small for the switch to electric, there's barely enough space for what they have got at the moment if you've ever been past the depot the lack of space is clearly visible.
As for weymouth getting a new depot you'd need to find some land to build it on in Weymouth, and I can't see many sites that would be big enough in the area.
Lastly another difference in service levels this year is the 12 to Littlesea Holiday Park, not only does the last service to the park now go back in service rather than straight to the depot (handy for people who finish at 6:00 PM), but also peak season service enhancements (a bus every 30 mins, doubling the frequency) applies to the current Easter holidays and half-term/Whitsun as well. Though that will be more Haven's decision than anything as they pay for the service.
Callum15632
Member
I think the double deckers would be ex Glasgow Airport Enviro 400 Cities 33101-33107. 33108/9/10 might go down after their stint in Bristol.
Going by bustimes if they want to do a direct Streetlite/single decker swap they'd need 19 double deckers, and I would assume that unless they stop doing some services they'll have to have at least a 1:1 swap.
More buses with USB charging, especially on the longer coaster routes, would certainly be an advantage.
Local Bus drivers and long distance coach drivers are two different roles that might not attract the same people
Also the schools end in July don’t they?
Snozzel
Member
They do end in july, end of summer term. It is every school route. Nobody wants the hassle of nights and weekends on the m5 et al for the same low wage as far as my conversations with other staff have ascertained.
OptareOlympus
Member
The EX1 timetable is now on the First Somerset website. Quite simply, the worst laid out and presented timetable for a tourist product I've ever seen.
buscoaster
Member
I have just had a look at it and I can't understand it...how are the public meant to?
OptareOlympus
Member
That's probably the idea.
Why release a timetable valid from 20 April that doesn't actually have any buses that run until the end of May. Also that represents a significant service cull. The 0935 is going to massively overloaded and no bus back between 1515 and 1720 from Lynmouth is not great. Also annoyingly, it no longer connects with the 0830 28 from Taunton on Saturday.
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That is utterly appalling. Incredibly confused presentation and not as good a service. Just two buses in service off peak, just four journeys each way off peak and just three journeys to Ilfracombe.
Odd that there is an earlier journey into Minehead and a later journey to Lynmouth in off peak times - surely they aren’t basing one there?
How to get rid of those annoying people called passengers- lesson 39!
Oh the absolute irony if you type Exmoor Explorer timetable into Google, and it presents you with a link to the now dead Adventures by Bus page!
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And yes, I agree. A cheap, appalling and poorly presented timetable page with an equally appalling timetable to match. First really doesn’t have any interest in running much outside of its core areas unless it has to. This is I’d have to argue, worse than the First Devon and Cornwall dumping ground days of old. At least they ran Open Toppers.
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Oh my lord - that's up there with Arriva's rubbish ones for the Middlesbrough to Scarborough service.
I don't know the finances of that route in recent years. However, the timetable and promotional approach is akin to vandalism.
Why the complaints?
First timetables using the automated website data presentations can often be a mess like many others.
The timetable will be presented properly in the pdf book, the bus stop display and probably a printed leaflet.
How will Google, Traveline, etc present it? Things that Holiday makers actually use.
The timetable is designed to suit local holiday makers and is similar to how it has always been, except it is now through to Ilfracombe and not a connection at Lynmouth to a Filers service. It is a 5 hour round trip + 1 hour break at Minehead, thus running every 3 hours off peak. Providing something suitable is not easy from one end and what times are important like Butlins meal times, drivers meals, 09:30 ENTCS start, ...
Off Peak Service Mon - Fri.
The Adventures by Bus website now gives links to the 3 remaining open top services:
Minehead EX1, Weymouth 11, Weston super Mare 1.
These things are not designed for bus enthusiasts. Real publicity will be done in season.
First timetables using the automated website data presentations can often be a mess like many others.
The timetable will be presented properly in the pdf book, the bus stop display and probably a printed leaflet.
How will Google, Traveline, etc present it? Things that Holiday makers actually use.
The timetable is designed to suit local holiday makers and is similar to how it has always been, except it is now through to Ilfracombe and not a connection at Lynmouth to a Filers service. It is a 5 hour round trip + 1 hour break at Minehead, thus running every 3 hours off peak. Providing something suitable is not easy from one end and what times are important like Butlins meal times, drivers meals, 09:30 ENTCS start, ...
Off Peak Service Mon - Fri.
| Butlins | Empty | 08:35 | 11:30 | 14:30 | 17:20 |
| Lynmouth | Empty | 09:40 | 12:40 | 15:40 | 18:23 |
| Ilfracombe | - | 10:48 | 13:48 | 16:48 | - |
| Ilfracombe | - | 11:00 | 14:00 | 17:00 | - |
| Lynmouth | 09:27 | 12:15 | 15:15 | 18:15 | Empty |
| Butlins | 10:30 | 13:20 | 16:17 | 19:12 | Empty |
The Adventures by Bus website now gives links to the 3 remaining open top services:
Minehead EX1, Weymouth 11, Weston super Mare 1.
These things are not designed for bus enthusiasts. Real publicity will be done in season.
JKP
Member
It is the presentation on First’s own timetable website that is very poor. I assume that the registration is split at Lynmouth which might account for it.
By the way, Filer’s no longer run bus services. These passed to Stagecoach last year.
Please tell me you are joking that you think the timetable presentation is acceptable. How difficult is it to show Minehead to Ilfracombe as one journey not as Minehead to Lynmouth on one page and Lynmouth-Ilfracombe at the bottom of the second page, not linked to the first one in any way and so you have no clue it's a through service. The bus is a through service, why not show it as such, like Stagecoach and all operators bar Arriva do with their timetables. I get that many won't use their website (as its so utterly unusable) but what company spends money making such an usable website...its advertising after all. Also, you seem to think it ok that it says the EX1 timetable is forthcoming on 20/04/2025 for weekdays when it isn't 26/04/2025 for Saturdays when it isn't and is Sunday really starting on 20/04/2025 as the timetable shows (it has no offpk notes on it) as the website article says the whole service doesn't start until Sunday 25 May. Really great if you turn up on Sunday week following the 'amazing' timetable. Devon should withdraw BSIP funding as this is shocking use of it.
As for Adventures by Bus, my point was that the pictures are not of the routes you now have (i.e. Lizard and Atlantic Coaster) and how difficult was it to change that. They are promoting pictures of services that they don't even run...they may as well have put a picture of the Lowestoft coastal bus given it's all fiction. That is a traveller not enthusiast here too...
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This.
Whilst the MMW & AC era may be known for over branding, the use of Best Impression's for its website and publicity made things simple, smart and easy to understand for everyone. The new standards set by First seem to be how to make everything utterly unreadable. The website is a mess, the timetables appear to be a mess, and what little branding there is also appears to be a mess. I’ve just showed the timetable to my 78 year old dad who is not an “enthusiast” and he found it confusing. He used the service last year when it was the Coaster and was surprised at the changes. The printed timetables may look better when they are eventually released, but as it stands at the moment, they aren’t.
It’s frustrating to see the good things left by the previous management seemingly swept away by this one.
I note the revised EX1 service is still omitting to serve one of the larger settlements en route - Lynton.
Upon inauguration, Lynton was timetabled to be served, but after the first fortnight or so, the route was changed to go direct from Lynmouth to Barbrook. Was this change of heart because of timetable restraints, or difficulties in driving through Lynton, which I would have thought is no more difficult a place to manoeuvre a double-deck bus than Porlock.
I realise the sharp right turn from Lynmouth Hill to Castle Hill, Lynton, which the smaller buses on the Barnstable route use, would be difficult for a dd.bus, but there is the easier turn a little further along Lynbridge Rd on to Station Hill.
If the Lynton deviation took too much time, I would have thought it could have been reintroduced now the latest timetable is more infrequent. It does seem a pity to omit an attractive little town, but then, as some have said, First Bus seems no longer interested in promoting the route.
Upon inauguration, Lynton was timetabled to be served, but after the first fortnight or so, the route was changed to go direct from Lynmouth to Barbrook. Was this change of heart because of timetable restraints, or difficulties in driving through Lynton, which I would have thought is no more difficult a place to manoeuvre a double-deck bus than Porlock.
I realise the sharp right turn from Lynmouth Hill to Castle Hill, Lynton, which the smaller buses on the Barnstable route use, would be difficult for a dd.bus, but there is the easier turn a little further along Lynbridge Rd on to Station Hill.
If the Lynton deviation took too much time, I would have thought it could have been reintroduced now the latest timetable is more infrequent. It does seem a pity to omit an attractive little town, but then, as some have said, First Bus seems no longer interested in promoting the route.
What route are you suggesting this Lynton diversion should take?
A Quick Look on Google Maps and attempting to make sharp dog leg turns, in busy summer traffic, in a double decker doesn’t look practical
Lynton and Lynmouth are basically the same resort, with nice walks and the cliff lift between them, they don’t need to serve both.
You can slam First for some things, but I don’t think this is one of them
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Also back to Weymouth, again talking to a driver on my way home from work, they currently seem to be short of buses, you've got the Littlesea uplift and two buses for the Lyme Regis park and ride, and as we passed the depot he was saying only one bus was spare, all the others were in service.
If they have any breakdowns they are in trouble!
If they have any breakdowns they are in trouble!
OptareOlympus
Member
Tourists primarily use printed leaflets and publicity. Most have no idea these open top routes exist until they see a leaflet in a rack, or the bus itself on the road. No holidaymaker is going to navigate Traveline to plan an open top or scenic bus ride. I've spent the last 11 years on one of Britain's most high profile open top tourist routes so I know from several years experience.
The Exmoor Coaster ran through to Ilfracombe in 2023 and 2024, so why the attempt to spin it as new this year? For the last 4 years, it has been a developing and growing commercial tourist product and now all of a sudden, for reasons unknown, because the 'heroes' at the local authorities have decided to use tax payers money to fund it this year, we are being spun a line that it's a new route all thanks to them.
That timetable, both off peak and on peak (both completely the wrong terms for tourist routes - it's low and high season) has local authority finger prints all over it.
With regards to being 'aimed at enthusiasts', the point is, if even some enthusiasts can't understand it, then what hope have Darren and Sharon from Blue Anchor got in August?
As divisive as Best impressions work is amongst the industry, the fact is their tourist branding (liveries, maps, leaflet, copy, destination promotion etc) is top drawer, pulls the numbers in and does 'create desire' for the products. EX1 Exmoor Explorer and the new First Somerset website does none of that.
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Firstbus corporate website is what it is - the local company inputs the base data and it puts it out the way it does. There is nothing locally you can do about it. Minehead to Taunton 28 is similarly split at Bishop's Lydeard.
I use a variety of apps to display timetables. At least we know the EX1 is running this year and between what dates.
Each local First company does local publicity in it own way. First Bristol does pdf leaflets for every route with timetable and map filed under route maps. They used to be printed, but the pdfs are great. First Wessex and First Somerset will print leaflets, booklets, etc and put them in accommodation like Butlin's reception as well as tourist places.
The Minehead to Lynmouth, Lyndale car park, section of route has been running with struggles for a long time.
The Somerset CC timetable that comes to hand is for 2012.
It was then Quantock Motor Services route 300 leaving Minehead at 10:00, 12:00, 14:00 and 16:00 Mon-Sat, 10:00, 13:30 and 16:05 on Sun. It was financially supported by Exmoor National Park and Somerset Council.
Thus this year is not that different except it has to do the longer route.
Some journeys would connect with Filers travel route 300 from Ilfracombe, but that didn't run every year and Filers run no buses now and Stagecoach have not picked it up. In fact Stagecoach have cut back on their Barnstaple 21C open top to just hourly as per winter.
First have only run west of Minehead in the last few years and like the other areas tried to expand it to a profitable tourist route. Unfortunately long open top routes are not a big enough attraction and add in the weather, short season, etc, they just loose money. They also run them as local routes and not tourist routes with premium fares and no ENCTS passes.
Try Weymouth, Bournemouth, Brighton where the numbers work.
I use a variety of apps to display timetables. At least we know the EX1 is running this year and between what dates.
Each local First company does local publicity in it own way. First Bristol does pdf leaflets for every route with timetable and map filed under route maps. They used to be printed, but the pdfs are great. First Wessex and First Somerset will print leaflets, booklets, etc and put them in accommodation like Butlin's reception as well as tourist places.
The Minehead to Lynmouth, Lyndale car park, section of route has been running with struggles for a long time.
The Somerset CC timetable that comes to hand is for 2012.
It was then Quantock Motor Services route 300 leaving Minehead at 10:00, 12:00, 14:00 and 16:00 Mon-Sat, 10:00, 13:30 and 16:05 on Sun. It was financially supported by Exmoor National Park and Somerset Council.
Thus this year is not that different except it has to do the longer route.
Some journeys would connect with Filers travel route 300 from Ilfracombe, but that didn't run every year and Filers run no buses now and Stagecoach have not picked it up. In fact Stagecoach have cut back on their Barnstaple 21C open top to just hourly as per winter.
First have only run west of Minehead in the last few years and like the other areas tried to expand it to a profitable tourist route. Unfortunately long open top routes are not a big enough attraction and add in the weather, short season, etc, they just loose money. They also run them as local routes and not tourist routes with premium fares and no ENCTS passes.
Try Weymouth, Bournemouth, Brighton where the numbers work.
OptareOlympus
Member
Has Exmoor Coaster been another victim of the £2 face cap? If we look back, Marc Morgan Huws tweeted that the success of the 2022 season gave FSW the confidence to commission the conversion of the E400s to increase the fleet to 9 open tops for 2023 running through to Ilfracombe. At that point, it was priced at £12 for a day ticket which was obviously hitting the sweet spot. If the fare cap when introduced in 2023 and remained in place through 2024 with insufficient reimbursement then subsequently destroyed the viability of the route as looks the case in Penzance, then it's a real shame that all that good work of 2021/2022 has gone to waste.
Not it isn't as long routes outside of BoS display just fine and not in the same awful format as BoS...X51 and X54 for example. If the splitting of journeys based on DfT rules causes such issues, then surely even OpCo should have fed that back to the website team to get it resolved by now, and not just accepted the awful mess.
No we don't as the awful timetable says that the Sunday service starts on April 20 but the promo news item says end of May. Also, the amount of dead mileage this year is ludicrous and smacks of poor council timetable specification (though the council doesn't specify how First should display the timetable). The new timetable gives people little alternative on which trips to take and so will lead to big loadings on a couple of trips only and that means most will either have to sit downstairs or stand, which is not conducive to them returning to use the service again (the choice of trips is one reason the 50 to Swanage works so well). I imagine in Summer the morning service from Holcombe will have no seats left upstairs upstairs before it gets to Premier Inn and definitely not by Butlins as it barely did last year, despite there being services either side people could and did use.
On the 300, the first and last journeys regularly struggled to cope with loads.
Also, Stagecoach haven't cut the open top bus back to hourly on the 21C, they've removed all open tops from it completely.
Goldfish62
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 14 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 11,661
What's it got to do with the council? The councils provided top-up BSIP funding to allow the service to operate commercially. It's not a fully-fledged supported service, surely.
There are basic problems with all these open top services.
As with all services doubling the frequency or halving the fare requires more than double the passengers to work. Often it has a significant effect, but not enough. There is a sweet spot somewhere hopefully.
Since Covid the tourist numbers and type have changed year by year. Devon has recently noticed more couples and less families staying. However local families are staying home and visiting attractions nearby. Thus what looks promising one year may not work the following year.
The Exmoor Explorer is a great idea, run over many years, but making it pay has never happened - close probably, but not good enough. It has been run combined with the Minehead - Porlock local or school service, but it hasn't helped. For a suitable timetable it needs significant empty running, in or out of service.
I have never actually used it as normally working with my children who have been walking it - start of SW Coast path. They did Minehead - Lynmouth straight through once as a 2 day, plus overnight camp, carrying the tent, food etc. One then walked on to Falmouth.
With the continuing reductions of buses in Cornwall, the Truro office may well be struggling for enthusiasm. If Taunton depot goes back to Bristol control, as it used to be, it may be different.
- There is no base local demand - no winter service.
- There is little tourist demand along the route - very rural
- There aren't many tourist attractions associated with the routes
- The season is short
- The weather is unpredictable
As with all services doubling the frequency or halving the fare requires more than double the passengers to work. Often it has a significant effect, but not enough. There is a sweet spot somewhere hopefully.
Since Covid the tourist numbers and type have changed year by year. Devon has recently noticed more couples and less families staying. However local families are staying home and visiting attractions nearby. Thus what looks promising one year may not work the following year.
The Exmoor Explorer is a great idea, run over many years, but making it pay has never happened - close probably, but not good enough. It has been run combined with the Minehead - Porlock local or school service, but it hasn't helped. For a suitable timetable it needs significant empty running, in or out of service.
I have never actually used it as normally working with my children who have been walking it - start of SW Coast path. They did Minehead - Lynmouth straight through once as a 2 day, plus overnight camp, carrying the tent, food etc. One then walked on to Falmouth.
With the continuing reductions of buses in Cornwall, the Truro office may well be struggling for enthusiasm. If Taunton depot goes back to Bristol control, as it used to be, it may be different.
Flange Squeal
Established Member
- Joined
- 17 Jul 2012
- Messages
- 1,512
I attempted to on a rather chilled and dull weekday last year. First one I tried to catch at Minehead had such a queue already at the stop that both decks were full so we were denied. Went for a round of crazy golf and wondered back to the stop for the next one, only to find the bus so full only six people could board leaving around 25 of us at the stop (annoyingly we were about 8/9 in queue having got to stop 20 mins before bus due). With the new timetable, I doubt I’ll bother going back to try again this year.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I've used the Exmoor Explorer twice. First time was in 2021 when it was the inaugural season. I got the Saturday 0930 from Minehead about a week before the season finished. The top deck was very nearly full. Then in 2023, I did the full Minehead to Ilfracombe run leaving about 1100. I posted on the Trips thread at the time - full bus leaving Minehead with 5 standing passengers. Whilst there were a few leaving in Porlock, the bus was full until it reached Lynmouth where most got off. The bus then reloaded (I stayed on) and there were probably 30 on the top deck and 15 on the bottom.
I'd also say that whilst there is some lighter loaded journeys, even those passing in the opposite direction seemed to have decent loads. There may be little tourist potential on the route - a few in Porlock and some at Combe Martin - but the point is that people were travelling to/from the main tourist spots i.e. Lynmouth, Ilfracombe and Minehead and there seemed plenty of them.
I appreciate that I had a snapshot on two days but it seems like the entrepreneurial flair and freedom that typified First under the Giles reign is now being removed.
I'd also say that whilst there is some lighter loaded journeys, even those passing in the opposite direction seemed to have decent loads. There may be little tourist potential on the route - a few in Porlock and some at Combe Martin - but the point is that people were travelling to/from the main tourist spots i.e. Lynmouth, Ilfracombe and Minehead and there seemed plenty of them.
I appreciate that I had a snapshot on two days but it seems like the entrepreneurial flair and freedom that typified First under the Giles reign is now being removed.
Your observations match my experience of using it numerous times last year. We left people behind at Minehead at 10am every time and the first one from Ilfracombe to Lynmouth always passed us full upstairs. Every time I've used the bus you get a couple on or off at Porlock, a few walkers get off at County Gate and most get off at Lynmouth with around a dozen going through to Ilfracombe. At Lynmouth around 10 to 20 get on and then you run non-stop to Combe Martin (sometimes a few alight at Woody Bay but rarely) where you get a few locals who happen across the bus or they have kids who wanted to use the service as it was open top vs the 301. So there is very minimal short trips (except Holcombe-Minehead).
If they are already struggling to carry everyone outbound in the morning from Minehead, the new timetable will make that much worse. Also, removing the open tops out of season will hurt loadings too but I can understand the move. Given Minehead to Lynmouth is the main usage, surely it would make sense to just revert back to serving that bit more frequently again by cutting Ilfracombe?