First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[Goldfish62]

I've used the Exmoor Explorer twice. First time was in 2021 when it was the inaugural season. I got the Saturday 0930 from Minehead about a week before the season finished. The top deck was very nearly full. Then in 2023, I did the full Minehead to Ilfracombe run leaving about 1100. I posted on the Trips thread at the time - full bus leaving Minehead with 5 standing passengers. Whilst there were a few leaving in Porlock, the bus was full until it reached Lynmouth where most got off. The bus then reloaded (I stayed on) and there were probably 30 on the top deck and 15 on the bottom.

I'd also say that whilst there is some lighter loaded journeys, even those passing in the opposite direction seemed to have decent loads. There may be little tourist potential on the route - a few in Porlock and some at Combe Martin - but the point is that people were travelling to/from the main tourist spots i.e. Lynmouth, Ilfracombe and Minehead and there seemed plenty of them.

I appreciate that I had a snapshot on two days but it seems like the entrepreneurial flair and freedom that typified First under the Giles reign is now being removed.

Completely agree. I did Minehead to Lynmouth and return in June 2022, mid week during school term in June. Bus rammed in both directions, with passengers universally on it for the open top experience surrounded by stunning scenery. As you say, there was little intermediate traffic, with passengers staying on for the whole trip.

Yesterday I drove my car from Lands End to St Ives and despite doing the route many, many times, still marvelled at the magical scenery, while also marvelling at the stupidity of First pulling out of such a stunning route that they've operated seasonally for over half a century.

Even the Lockhead era wasn't as bad as this.

 

[richard13]

I guess that £3 or ENCTS pass renumeration per journey is insufficient revenue even if every seat is taken on every journey over the short season. A day network ticket is £13.

Holiday entertainment is normally much more expensive than that.
The steam railway at Minehead charges £33/£36 per adult per day.

Run as a summer excursion service with premium fares and it might work.

 

[OptareOlympus]

I guess that £3 or ENCTS pass renumeration per journey is insufficient revenue even if every seat is taken on every journey over the short season. A day network ticket is £13.

Holiday entertainment is normally much more expensive than that.
The steam railway at Minehead charges £33/£36 per adult per day.

Run as a summer excursion service with premium fares and it might work.

Exactly this. Nobody should be travelling on seasonal premium tourist products for free or as part of tax payer funded schemes. By all means offer ENCTS holders a discount if they wish to enjoy the experience as they would on the heritage railway, but absolutely they should not be joy riding for free on such routes.

In Dorset, on the 50, you repeatedly see a gran and grandad travel for free and with both being allowed 2 under 7s with them for free also, there's 6 seats gone straight away that should have sold for around £60 and instead are reimbursed at around £1.33 for each ENCTS tap with nothing in the fare box for the grand children.

 

[Goldfish62]

I guess that £3 or ENCTS pass renumeration per journey is insufficient revenue even if every seat is taken on every journey over the short season. A day network ticket is £13.

Well, as I very much doubt there'll be any sort of continuation of a fare cap after the end of this year that element will no longer be a problem.

And of course no one has forced First to include the service in the scheme or even ENCTS anyway (it's wholeheartedly a tourist service like Stagecoach's Peak Sightseer). If First really wanted to save the route, which I doubt is the case, they could have introduced premium fares on it.

 

[Andyh82]

People keep saying stuff like ‘First don’t want the route, they want to kill it off’ etc etc

Why don’t they just withdraw it entirely then? They aren’t contracted to provide a compulsory service. People seem obsessed across multiple threads that to axe a service you need to gradually run it down first?

Same with the wider Cornwall business, they could close it down at any time (with notice), they don’t have to gradually run it down. It’s losing money, so let’s deliberately lose even more money for a year?

 

[Goldfish62]

People keep saying stuff like ‘First don’t want the route, they want to kill it off’ etc etc

Why don’t they just withdraw it entirely then? They aren’t contracted to provide a compulsory service. People seem obsessed across multiple threads that to axe a service you need to gradually run it down first?

Same with the wider Cornwall business, they could close it down at any time (with notice), they don’t have to gradually run it down. It’s losing money, so let’s deliberately lose even more money for a year?

I disagree because you're assuming all operators are the same and if one can't make money in an area none can.

There are examples around the country where operators have run down operations, constantly cutting back and eventually pulling out altogether claiming they can't make any money. Replacement operator moves in, shows commercial accumen and determination to make things works, and as if by magic manages to run a good network that makes money. Arriva pulling out of Crawley and being replaced by GoAhead is a particularly shining example.

In respect of Cornwall I think it's probably very likely they'd be on the way out by now if it were not for the fact that all supported services are being retendered in a couple of years time.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I disagree because you're assuming all operators are the same and if one can't make money in an area none can.

There are examples around the country where operators have run down operations, constantly cutting back and eventually pulling out altogether claiming they can't make any money. Replacement operator moves in, shows commercial accumen and determination to make things works, and as if by magic manages to run a good network that makes money. Arriva pulling out of Crawley and being replaced by GoAhead is a particularly shining example.

In respect of Cornwall I think it's probably very likely they'd be on the way out by now if it were not for the fact that all supported services are being retendered in a couple of years time.

I tend to agree with you on this point. @Andyh82 is right in suggesting that the idea that this being a deliberate ploy to run down the operations is bunkum, as First could simply cut their losses straight away.

However, the reality seems to be more that they are so absolutely battening down the hatches, the impact will be counterproductive. Operators can't run too many routes at a loss and there was certainly a whirling around of new initiatives in the Carter/Huws era of which many were somewhat optimistic. However, Exmoor Coaster seemed to be one of the actual success stories.

Fast forward a couple of years and the moves in terms of marketing and the timetable seem to be at odds to running that type of service. Certainly, the mess of the timetable layout on the website doesn't help anyone.

I'm also of the view that perhaps First are waiting for the retender process to commence. The current deal with Go Ahead runs until April 2028 so reckon the tender exercise will commence mid 2026 in earnest (though they may start pre-tender engagement before that).

 

[Fletcj10]

Just out of curiosity would anyone know how easy it is to make a convertible like more buses MCV's would such buses work on what was their open top routes? i'm not talking new builds i'm talking conversions such as 400 & G2 buses for example, as id believe this would be harder as i think that concept would have worked better then the route they have gone down?

 

[OptareOlympus]

Just out of curiosity would anyone know how easy it is to make a convertible like more buses MCV's would such buses work on what was their open top routes? i'm not talking new builds i'm talking conversions such as 400 & G2 buses for example, as id believe this would be harder as i think that concept would have worked better then the route they have gone down?

H&D Trim converted two Go Ahead London Geminis to convertibles around ten years ago (WVL 83/93) and were to be tasked with converting the brand new Wright Electroliners for Swanage if the Zebra 2 bid had been successful last year. Wright offer a factory build half top but couldn't offer a convertible, so the new buses were to be delivered to Eastleigh and be converted in house.

It's not a simple solution anymore. The costs of crane hire and the man power to safely convert them at the start and end of season aren't cheap, and that's if you can source a competent crane hire supplier who is prepared to undertake the work. Morebus are fortunate that the local operator they use has been doing it for decades for them but it still takes a good 2 weeks of work to convert all the Breezers and New Forest Tour buses each time, and back again. That's also 5 or 6 fitters that are redeployed from routine engineering work during these periods and all the additional depot moves for crane days incur overtime cost for the shunters carrying out the movements. It's not really a cost effective solution going forward. If an operator has the luxury of spare yard space, its a better option just to store half tops off season. Morebus doesn't have that luxury.

 

[Andyh82]

H&D Trim converted two Go Ahead London Geminis to convertibles around ten years ago (WVL 83/93) and were to be tasked with converting the brand new Wright Electroliners for Swanage if the Zebra 2 bid had been successful last year. Wright offer a factory build half top but couldn't offer a convertible, so the new buses were to be delivered to Eastleigh and be converted in house.

It's not a simple solution anymore. The costs of crane hire and the man power to safely convert them at the start and end of season aren't cheap, and that's if you can source a competent crane hire supplier who is prepared to undertake the work. Morebus are fortunate that the local operator they use has been doing it for decades for them but it still takes a good 2 weeks of work to convert all the Breezers and New Forest Tour buses each time, and back again. That's also 5 or 6 fitters that are redeployed from routine engineering work during these periods and all the additional depot moves for crane days incur overtime cost for the shunters carrying out the movements. It's not really a cost effective solution going forward. If an operator has the luxury of spare yard space, its a better option just to store half tops off season. Morebus doesn't have that luxury.

The fact that they use the same vehicles 52 weeks a year must offset some of that cost

The New Forest Tour has a short season but charges a premium price and uses depreciated vehicles that are used elsewhere the rest of the year. The 60/70 in Poole won’t be as busy as the main Swanage 50 service but will have a much quicker turn over of passengers than the routes First SW run which are mostly end to end, so the same seat could be being sold multiple times an hour

 

[OptareOlympus]

The fact that they use the same vehicles 52 weeks a year must offset some of that cost

The New Forest Tour has a short season but charges a premium price and uses depreciated vehicles that are used elsewhere the rest of the year. The 60/70 in Poole won’t be as busy as the main Swanage 50 service but will have a much quicker turn over of passengers than the routes First SW run which are mostly end to end, so the same seat could be being sold multiple times an hour

There are higher pax turnovers but generally the 50 carries around 80% of passengers between Bournemouth and Studland or Swanage. On good weather days, it's standing loads from Bournemouth (Station even) right to Swanage seafront (meaning the same load, not a turnover).

Swanage is propped up by the Purbeck School runs which use 3 closed tops daily.

 

[richard13]

For interest on Cornwall's tourist economy

I have just booked 1 week in self catering accommodation near Falmouth. Same place as last year, but earlier at mid Sept rather than mid Oct.
More or less expensive?
This year it is 25% cheaper!

The Covid boom has warn off.
Last year was over priced in general, so tourists went elsewhere. Will they be back this year?

 

[MarkC]

Saw a First decker on route assessment on Exeter Street in Plymouth this morning on its way towards city centre.

 

[Goldfish62]

For interest on Cornwall's tourist economy

I have just booked 1 week in self catering accommodation near Falmouth. Same place as last year, but earlier at mid Sept rather than mid Oct.
More or less expensive?
This year it is 25% cheaper!

The Covid boom has warn off.
Last year was over priced in general, so tourists went elsewhere. Will they be back this year?

The unusually awful weather also had an impact.

 

[JKP]

Saw a First decker on route assessment on Exeter Street in Plymouth this morning on its way towards city centre.

Could you explain further please? Exeter Street has seen a lot of dd over the years operated by First and its predecessors.

 

[MarkC]

Could you explain further please? Exeter Street has seen a lot of dd over the years operated by First and its predecessors.

What I meant is First don't operate services in Plymouth (since 2015) other than some college runs . So unusual to see First on route assessment in Plymouth at all

 

[Snozzel]

What I meant is First don't operate services in Plymouth (since 2015) other than some college runs . So unusual to see First on route assessment in Plymouth at all

Could it be flixbus route learning? I presume it would call there on its way to and from london. ( sorry i dont know plymouth street names to know if the location is relevant.)

 

[Goldfish62]

Could it be flixbus route learning? I presume it would call there on its way to and from london. ( sorry i dont know plymouth street names to know if the location is relevant.)

Doing a booking search for late May the Penzance/Newquay services do indeed call at Plymouth.

 

[nanstallon]

The sooner that First get out of Cornwall and make way for a company prepared to run the services properly, the better. I am fed up with buses that don't turn up.

 

[henryb]

Doing a booking search for late May the Penzance/Newquay services do indeed call at Plymouth.

Could indeed be flixbus route learning - 10th May I believe is start date. Some terminate still in Plymouth as well

 

[KendalKing]

The sooner that First get out of Cornwall and make way for a company prepared to run the services properly, the better. I am fed up with buses that don't turn up.

I feel the same, about Stagecoach in North Lancashire.

 

[baza585]

The sooner that First get out of Cornwall and make way for a company prepared to run the services properly, the better. I am fed up with buses that don't turn up.

That would lead to a Go Ahead monopoly.

In my experience, for all First's faults, in Cornwall they are better than Go, who are pretty dire.

 

[Goldfish62]

That would lead to a Go Ahead monopoly.

In my experience, for all First's faults, in Cornwall they are better than Go, who are pretty dire.

Not borne out by the latest Transport Focus passenger survey. GoCornwall are streets ahead of First.

It's very clear which operator passengers prefer.

Your Bus Journey - the independent bus user survey - 2024 results - Transport Focus

The Your Bus Journey survey provides independent insight on 48,000 journeys in England, Scotland and for the first time, Wales. It builds understanding across the three nations for benchmarking and comparison. These results inform the decisions made by governments, local transport authorities...

www.transportfocus.org.uk

 

[Callum15632]

Does anyone know if Taunton's electric buses are entering service on Monday or Tuesday?

 

[kegdr]

That would lead to a Go Ahead monopoly.

Not much more than there already is. There is a relatively small amount of route duplication between the two operators, the few cases where identical routes were run have mostly been scrapped as Transport for Cornwall becomes more joined together. As long as those routes provided exclusively by First (U1/2/4, T1/2 etc) were replaced either by GCB or an alternative operator (there are other TfC partners), most consumers would notice little difference.