First time contactless payment in London

[MikeWh]

Has that always been the case - I'm sure when CPC was first rolled out, all the card processing was done centrally for buses too? (Then again, I could be wrong :P )

Originally each bus entry was a single transaction and it was possible for cards to fail if a pin was required. Now the transit mode of contactless transactions is used all the usual charges are handled centrally. However, inspectors can still download all the card details for that bus journey because everything has gone through the local bus computer. This is not possible when entries are at various stations or tram stops.

 

[maniacmartin]

I would suggest to wait until 2018 (this is what I am doing!), as hopefully TfL will have a plan of action for people who need new cards.

Will the replacements be free? In theory they ought to be, after all people were cajoled into buying Oyster cards on the basis of them being able to be kept and reused 'forever'. In some places (eg: Hong Kong) replacements are free, but in Holland they charge Euro 7.50 when cards need replacing.

Simon

You don't 'buy' an Oyster card (except Visitor Oyster cards). You pay a deposit to get the card, which is refunded if you surrender the card

 

[infobleep]

Not quite.

On trains the device will confirm if the card is a working and non-blacklisted CPC. Later on the central system will confirm whether you were touched in to the system at the time. If not you get a maximum charge and yes, do it three times and the card is blacklisted.

On buses the device is loaded with a list of CPCs from the bus machine when the inspector boards. If you're not on that list then it's a penalty fare at the time.


No no no.

So with contactless one has more chance of being penalty fared on a bus than other transport options. Of course that is resolved by tapping in and paying the fare.

A friend had his card blacklisted. He claimed he was absent minded and bad to keep competing his journey online. Absent minded or not, as you say, they do blacklistel cards. He got his unblacklisted.

 

[paddington]

You don't 'buy' an Oyster card (except Visitor Oyster cards). You pay a deposit to get the card, which is refunded if you surrender the card

Yes.

For those who have Oysters which are more than 10 years old, there may not be any deposit at all - no deposit was paid on Oysters that were loaded with a travelcard at the time of purchase, until around 2009.

Nowadays, it is simple and trivial to refund Oysters with a balance of £10 or less at most TfL ticket machines (ones which accept banknotes). It is also simple to check whether there is a deposit on the card (and the amount of the deposit, which may be £3 or £5) by beginning the refund process.

For anyone who is worried about needing to replace an Oyster, just use it until the balance is less than £10, refund it, and buy a new one at the same machine (all TfL machines now sell new Oysters). However, you will have to pay the £5 deposit even if your old card didn't have any deposit.

After refunding an Oyster, it is disabled. However, Oysters without a deposit can be reloaded and reused several times after refunding the balance. As an experiment, I attempted to refund the same Oyster (purchased in 2003), reload it and then pay for journeys, then refund it again multiple times. After the 20th refund, the card stopped working.


London is one of the rare cities which doesn't actually charge for its public transport card and allows cash refunds in full (although refunds of a balance greater than £10 require a UK bank account). The Netherlands example given is not really a fee to replace the card, it is a fee that must be paid every 5 years in order to use the card, and this is by design.

 

[simple simon]

Mike,

My information comes from discussions which include ticketing on District Dave and at a Yahoo group which includes some TfL people and former TfL people as its members. This yahoo group is restricted and only logged in members can see the messages.

I will seek more information and come back.

Simon

I asked, and was told that based upon what is known so far, since the plan is to allow weekly fares capping on Oyster and this requires that transactions are resolved at the back office (rather than on the cards, as at present) then the new system can be expected to have been implemented by early 2018. This was in District Dave in a thread about future ticketing.

In the meantime however, TfL are trialling a smartphone app.

https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/oyster-and-contactless-app-pilot

Simon

 

[philthetube]

I'd be very interested in that as well. Living in Durham, I only use my Oyster card 2-3 times a year and wouldn't want to roll up at Kings Cross in April 2018 on a delayed train and find I couldn't get across to Paddington in time for my connection as my Oyster card was no longer working(1).

1. I think I'm signed up to a TfL newsletter so may get some warning.

I wouldn't bother with oyster once your credit is done, just use contactles, one less card to carry.

 

[ashworth]

Perhaps I'm just getting old, live in a rural area and I'm not used to modern city life! I just wouldn't feel happy about using my debit card as I travel around London entering and exiting stations and getting on buses, especially on night buses. To me, my bank card has always been something where the security of it is of upmost importance, and I would be worried about loosing it or of it getting stolen. Perhaps I'm just paranoid about such things but on the few occasions each year when I'm travelling around London, I keep my wallet and debit card very securely tucked away and would not like to have to keep getting out my debit card, in busy crowded places or in dodgy inner city areas, to use it like I do my Oyster card.

 

[Hadders]

Perhaps I'm just getting old, live in a rural area and I'm not used to modern city life! I just wouldn't feel happy about using my debit card as I travel around London entering and exiting stations and getting on buses, especially on night buses. To me, my bank card has always been something where the security of it is of upmost importance, and I would be worried about loosing it or of it getting stolen. Perhaps I'm just paranoid about such things but on the few occasions each year when I'm travelling around London, I keep my wallet and debit card very securely tucked away and would not like to have to keep getting out my debit card, in busy crowded places or in dodgy inner city areas, to use it like I do my Oyster card.

Millions of people use contactless daily. It really isn't an issue. I agree that security of a bank card should be taken seriously however if it does get lost, while it is inconvenient the likelihood of actual loss is very low.

 

[les.]

Just another question to add to this thread.

I have a CPC but have never used it as a CPC in any capacity and I was told that the very first time you use it, you have to enter your pin.

Is this correct or have I been given duff information as I want to use it on the underground.

 

[Hadders]

Just another question to add to this thread.

I have a CPC but have never used it as a CPC in any capacity and I was told that the very first time you use it, you have to enter your pin.

Is this correct or have I been given duff information as I want to use it on the underground.

The very first transaction you make with a new card cannot be a contactless one, ie. it has to be a transaction where a PIN is required (either at an ATM or a chip and pin transaction in a shop).

As long as you've made a transaction with a PIN at some point since you've had it then you'll be fine.

If you make a number of consecutive contactless transactions then you are usually asked to enter your PIN (I think it's 6 transactions). This is a security feature so that if your card is lost the maximum exposure (of the bank as long as you report the loss promptly and haven't been negligent etc) is £180. Ordinarily this doesn't usually cause an issue as most people wouldn't make 6 consecutive contactless transactions, they'd be a PIN validated one which would reset the count to zero. Note that use on Transport for London operates differently and although you use a contactless card it only makes one charge per day and you won't be asked to enter your PIN at any point.

 

[les.]

The very first transaction you make with a new card cannot be a contactless one, ie. it has to be a transaction where a PIN is required (either at an ATM or a chip and pin transaction in a shop).

As long as you've made a transaction with a PIN at some point since you've had it then you'll be fine.

If you make a number of consecutive contactless transactions then you are usually asked to enter your PIN (I think it's 6 transactions). This is a security feature so that if your card is lost the maximum exposure (of the bank as long as you report the loss promptly and haven't been negligent etc) is £180. Ordinarily this doesn't usually cause an issue as most people wouldn't make 6 consecutive contactless transactions, they'd be a PIN validated one which would reset the count to zero. Note that use on Transport for London operates differently and although you use a contactless card it only makes one charge per day and you won't be asked to enter your PIN at any point.

Thanks, I'll have to make sure I buy something with it then before I attempt to use it on the Underground as I haven't used it as a contactless card in any way shape or form yet.

 

[Romilly]

You don't have to have used the card contactlessly before using it on London Transport, you just have to have used it in a chip & pin transaction.

 

[les.]

You don't have to have used the card contactlessly before using it on London Transport, you just have to have used it in a chip & pin transaction.

Oh, that okay then as I always use it chip and pin. I just didn't want to try and use it at a busy underground station and for it not to work.

 

[najaB]

Oh, that okay then as I always use it chip and pin.

OT, I know, but "Why?!" - contactless is soooo much easier.

 

[les.]

OT, I know, but "Why?!" - contactless is soooo much easier.

I never make small purchases with my card, I usually use cash to pay for stuff under a certain amount.

 

[simple simon]

Perhaps I'm just getting old, live in a rural area and I'm not used to modern city life! I just wouldn't feel happy about using my debit card as I travel around London entering and exiting stations and getting on buses, especially on night buses. To me, my bank card has always been something where the security of it is of upmost importance, and I would be worried about loosing it or of it getting stolen. Perhaps I'm just paranoid about such things but on the few occasions each year when I'm travelling around London, I keep my wallet and debit card very securely tucked away and would not like to have to keep getting out my debit card, in busy crowded places or in dodgy inner city areas, to use it like I do my Oyster card.

For the record, although I also have contactless enabled bank cards I only use Oyster when travelling.

Whats more as an added safety measure I keep my contactless bank cards in RFID blocking sleeves. This is not so much as a result of concerns about card clash as about concerns about fellow humans who may be trying to read contactless cards which are near to them with an aim to cloning these cards and then going shopping - with someone else picking up the tab. Note however that this can occur anywhere (cafe, busy footpath, etc.,) and not just on a crowded train or bus.

Many people have multiple contactless banking cards from several bank accounts plus several credit cards and they dedicate just one of these for use on the transport. This is a very wise way of doing things because it ensures that you benefit from fares capping and never start a journey with one card and end it with another card (this being something that will see both cards being charged default 'maximum fares'. Ouch!)

It may be that the Oyster helpline will be able to help resolve the issue but its still a hassle which with forethought is easily avoided.

Simon

 

[simple simon]

Just another question to add to this thread.

I have a CPC but have never used it as a CPC in any capacity and I was told that the very first time you use it, you have to enter your pin.

Is this correct or have I been given duff information as I want to use it on the underground.

Les, other people have already answered your question so I wont repeat their comments but I'd like to add that when using contactless cards to pay transport fares all that happens at the time of travelling is that the card and journey details are noted by the TfL computers. No actual transaction is charged to the card - although the card's identity will likely be checked to ensure that it has not been blocked / not reported stolen, etc. Financial transactions are conducted just the once at the end of the day.

This is how TfL get around the issue of sometimes needing a pin. Otherwise the use of contactless bank cards would have been unworkable.

Of course there are alternatives to banking cards - RFID wristbands, RFID watches, smartphone with Apple pay and more. Some people might even have subdermal RFID chips, which means embedded under their skin / in their hand.

Simon

 

[jon0844]

Nowadays, it is simple and trivial to refund Oysters with a balance of £10 or less at most TfL ticket machines (ones which accept banknotes). It is also simple to check whether there is a deposit on the card (and the amount of the deposit, which may be £3 or £5) by beginning the refund process.

I couldn't do that for one of the old (unsecure) cards and had to go to a visitor centre, but I believe this is true for the newer cards.

 

[paddington]

I couldn't do that for one of the old (unsecure) cards and had to go to a visitor centre, but I believe this is true for the newer cards.

OK, but as I said in that post, I have been able to self-service refund an Oyster which had been purchased at the time Oyster first came in. Anyway, you can always refund it to a bank account if you have a UK bank account.