Fixed Penalty Notice

[Goldiegoldfish]

Hi

My son has received a Fixed Penalty Notice for £100 plus cost of ticket £3.70. (Northern Trains)

Background is:

My son is 19 and at college, no income. He is on a bursary from college which includes a bus pass. Unfortunately the buses are not convenient so he uses the train when he cannot be taken/picked up. I am a single parent, working but entitled to and claim UC. He uses the train to mainly come home from college once/twice a week where I am not able to pick him up.

A few weeks ago the member of staff checking the tickets questioned him about his ticket. It turns out that when he booked his ticket online the fare was more than the money he had in his bank and he knew I didn't have any money to transfer him that day so he bought a child ticket instead in order to get home. It turns out that his app was on open return fares (from a journey he had made a few weeks prior to Manchester) which he didn't realise and he had been buying return tickets for his journeys rather than singles for weeks and that is why the fare seemed so much. His ticket for this particular journey cost him £2.05 which was the child open return. An adult single should have been £1.80. So of course he realises his mistake and that he had been caught and the member of staff asked him his name, address etc which he gave. He wasn't given a penalty fare notice at the time but then received a letter saying there was an alleged contravention of Railway Regulations (it didn't specify) and that an evidential report had been prepared but they were giving him the opportunity to put his side forward. Which we did and they have taken no notice of course and he has now received the Fixed Penalty Notice giving him 14 days to pay the £103.70 or they will take him to court.

I know he travelled on a child ticket when he shouldn't have but in fact he paid more than what the correct ticket should have cost and has also paid much more for his tickets than he should have for weeks so this is frustrating. They haven't offered him the option of paying £50 in 21 days which is stated on nationalrail.co.uk and they are wanting £3.70 for the ticket when it was only £1.80 and in fact he had already paid £2.05 return (so about £1.10 for single) so why do they want £3.70?

Additional background:

Back in October he was meeting a friend in the city centre for a meal. Two of their close friends had died in an awful car crash a few weeks earlier and another left in intensive care (also a relative of my son's friend - now recovering well thank goodness) so they were both in a state and needed to meet up. My son had already missed a train and we were short on time for him to catch the next one (the trains run about every half an hour), he didn't want to keep his friend waiting any longer than he already had by missing the next train as well. At the station the ticket machine is in the car park, not on the platform so if the train was pulling in you would miss it, rather than the driver/guard being able to see you at the ticket machine on the platform and - hopefully - waiting for you). So he ran to the platform and attempted to buy a ticket online instead of at the machine so he didn't miss that train as well. However, the app would not let him buy the ticket as it was too close to the train time and he rang me in a panic. I said don't worry just buy a ticket on the train or at the station when you arrive (there are barriers so you can't get out without a ticket anyway) as this is always what you have been able to do and I have done numerous times myself in the past. However, not any more. A ticket inspector came round and would not let him buy a ticket on the train, instead gave him a penalty fare ticket to pay online. We appealed but didn't get anywhere and had to pay £55. So of course his name is in their 'system' and the member of staff for the one the other week when checking my son's name saw this and made some comment about 'being caught before'. Which I really object to given the circumstances, he wasn't fare dodging at all.

Anyway, just wanted some advice to see if there was any way I can argue against this recent one or at least why can't we pay £50 and the correct fare difference?
TIA

 

[spag23]

They haven't offered him the option of paying £50 in 21 days which is stated on nationalrail.co.uk

I believe the £50 the OP quotes is the Penalty Fare (halved from £100 for early payment) that some companies can issue on the spot for the more innocent fare mistakes or irregularities. The sum can be paid later, but a PF itself cannot be issued at a later date. In this case, it seems the inspector determined (especially with the name already "in the system"), that the evasion was deliberate, making a PF inappropriate.
Boarding a train without a ticket is in breach of the Railway laws (unless there were no suitable sales facilities at the starting station, or staff permission was sought first); so advising your son to do this at the first episode was, unfortunately, bad advice.

 

[gray1404]

You're bang to rights here and have offered nothing in mitigation that will get him out of paying. Best paying up to avoid court and travelling with a valid ticket and to have that ticket before he gets on the train.

 

[antharro]

The black and white of it is that he didn't have a correct ticket for the journey he was making. The finances of it are irrelevant. There's no mitigation for that, and unfortunately none of the circumstances you've explained would make any difference in court. I suspect it's £100 because they already have him on file. They could take this to court and they would win, so I would strongly suggest that you or he pays up in the time allocated. And for the future, absolutely make sure he has the correct ticket for his journey as I suspect if this happens again they are more likely to proceed to court.

 

[John R]

I’m afraid the previous two posters are correct. Nothing you’ve put is any mitigation for the fact that your son knowingly bought a child ticket when he was not entitled to, and had previously been caught without a valid ticket.

The only advice can be to pay up. The useful part of the story about the unwittingly purchasing more expensive tickets is that it highlights that your son needs to pay more attention in future. He needs to ensure he has the correct ticket in future (including being on the correct train if it is an advance ticket) as a third strike will almost certainly result in prosecution. If he’s not sure, check with someone.

 

[fandroid]

Sadly, the railways take even tiny (in money terms) breaches of the rules very seriously and don't really seem be proportionate in their reactions to them. This is understandable as they get a lot of real fare dodgers and can't tell if an individual is just someone who occasionally is desperate or who deliberately does it on a daily basis.

If it's possible to afford one, your son should get a 16-25 Railcard. That will knock 30% off the fares, especially as he seems to mainly travel in the afternoons. In the morning peak times there's a minimum fare of £12 when using those Railcards.

As ever it's complicated. That minimum fare can be avoided. He would be well advised to come on here and ask for help in how to minimise his fares for the journeys he wishes to take. There's a lot of expertise here and plenty are very happy to help.

 

[ikcdab]

If he has been truly buying return tickets and only using the outward portion, then can he claim a refund on the unused portions?

 

[AlterEgo]

If he has been truly buying return tickets and only using the outward portion, then can he claim a refund on the unused portions?

Any administration fee would likely render any refund moot.

 

[Goldiegoldfish]

I believe the £50 the OP quotes is the Penalty Fare (halved from £100 for early payment) that some companies can issue on the spot for the more innocent fare mistakes or irregularities. The sum can be paid later, but a PF itself cannot be issued at a later date. In this case, it seems the inspector determined (especially with the name already "in the system"), that the evasion was deliberate, making a PF inappropriate.
Boarding a train without a ticket is in breach of the Railway laws (unless there were no suitable sales facilities at the starting station, or staff permission was sought first); so advising your son to do this at the first episode was, unfortunately, bad advice.

I agree it was bad advice but I wasn't aware of the fact at the time that they consider if a working ticket machine is available then it's an offence to get on the train without buying a ticket from the machine or at least getting a promise to pay (which I had never heard of before). I don't often travel on the train these days but when I did you could always buy a ticket on the train. Well, I know now.

A Penalty Fare has been issued on this recent occasion but was issued later, by letter, not by the member of staff on the train (like the first time).

I’m afraid the previous two posters are correct. Nothing you’ve put is any mitigation for the fact that your son knowingly bought a child ticket when he was not entitled to, and had previously been caught without a valid ticket.

The only advice can be to pay up. The useful part of the story about the unwittingly purchasing more expensive tickets is that it highlights that your son needs to pay more attention in future. He needs to ensure he has the correct ticket in future (including being on the correct train if it is an advance ticket) as a third strike will almost certainly result in prosecution. If he’s not sure, check with someone.

I agree he does need to pay more attention and have told him so, however he has dyslexia, which sometimes affects things like this. I also wish he had checked with me but he didn't unfortunately. I will worry every time he gets the train now!

If he has been truly buying return tickets and only using the outward portion, then can he claim a refund on the unused portions?

Unfortunately for local daily journeys like this I think they are non-refundable tickets but thank you for being kind to suggest.

 

[John R]

I agree he does need to pay more attention and have told him so, however he has dyslexia, which sometimes affects things like this. I also wish he had checked with me but he didn't unfortunately. I will worry every time he gets the train now!

Just to add to my point about advance tickets then. Northern sell this type of ticket on the day online, for relatively local journeys, at a considerable discount to the usual fare.

We’ve seen several cases where people simply chose the cheapest fare, and didn’t realise it was only valid on a specific train. And thus have been caught out, and ended up paying a large fine.

You should make your son aware of this given his dyslexia, as I suspect it’s a trap he could easily fall into.

 

[Goldiegoldfish]

Sadly, the railways take even tiny (in money terms) breaches of the rules very seriously and don't really seem be proportionate in their reactions to them. This is understandable as they get a lot of real fare dodgers and can't tell if an individual is just someone who occasionally is desperate or who deliberately does it on a daily basis.

If it's possible to afford one, your son should get a 16-25 Railcard. That will knock 30% off the fares, especially as he seems to mainly travel in the afternoons. In the morning peak times there's a minimum fare of £12 when using those Railcards.

As ever it's complicated. That minimum fare can be avoided. He would be well advised to come on here and ask for help in how to minimise his fares for the journeys he wishes to take. There's a lot of expertise here and plenty are very happy to help.

Thank you. I totally understand about the real fare dodgers. He wouldn't have been able to fare dodge though, even if he was intending to, as you can't get in/out Leeds station without a valid ticket due to the barriers. The whole thing is very frustrating and an expensive lesson learned.

I'm not sure if a railcard would be worthwhile but will look into it. It's also a shame the college travel pass isn't for trains as well as buses, I did ask at student services and was told it was but it isn't.

Just to add to my point about advance tickets then. Northern sell this type of ticket on the day online, for relatively local journeys, at a considerable discount to the usual fare.

We’ve seen several cases where people simply chose the cheapest fare, and didn’t realise it was only valid on a specific train. And thus have been caught out, and ended up paying a large fine.

You should make your son aware of this given his dyslexia, as I suspect it’s a trap he could easily fall into.

Thank you. I will go through that with him. Also because when he couldn't buy the ticket online (the first instance) due to it being too close to the train time, afterwards we had thought that if this happened again he could just buy a ticket for the next train instead as I thought it was only advance tickets for journeys such as Leeds to London which have the specific train restriction. I didn't know this could also be the case here. Northern seem to go out of their way to try and catch people out and then are very keen to give penalty fares/prosecute. It almost makes me feel like I never want to use the trains again.

The black and white of it is that he didn't have a correct ticket for the journey he was making. The finances of it are irrelevant. There's no mitigation for that, and unfortunately none of the circumstances you've explained would make any difference in court. I suspect it's £100 because they already have him on file. They could take this to court and they would win, so I would strongly suggest that you or he pays up in the time allocated. And for the future, absolutely make sure he has the correct ticket for his journey as I suspect if this happens again they are more likely to proceed to court.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Penalty Fare has been issued on this recent occasion but was issued later, by letter, not by the member of staff on the train (like the first time)

I think your son has been issued a ‘Fixed Penalty Notice’ which is not the same as a penalty fare. It is essentially an offer of settlement to avoid prosecution and there is no discount if paid early, right of appeal or other legal safeguards which Penalty Fares have. Penalty Fares were introduced by legislation in 2018 and cannot be issued after the fact.

I agree that Northern are very heavy handed with some of their enforcement policies but they hold most of the cards and your son would almost certainly be found guilty if it was taken to court.

 

[spag23]

He wouldn't have been able to fare dodge though, even if he was intending to, as you can't get in/out Leeds station without a valid ticket due to the barriers.

We accept he wasn't intending to fare dodge. But - as we've learned on this forum - many people do get through barriers without a valid ticket. eg ticket to/from the nearest station, Railcard discounted ticket with no current Railcard, or a Child ticket.

 

[Goldiegoldfish]

I think your son has been issued a ‘Fixed Penalty Notice’ which is not the same as a penalty fare. It is essentially an offer of settlement to avoid prosecution and there is no discount if paid early, right of appeal or other legal safeguards which Penalty Fares have. Penalty Fares were introduced by legislation in 2018 and cannot be issued after the fact.

I agree that Northern are very heavy handed with some of their enforcement policies but they hold most of the cards and your son would almost certainly be found guilty if it was taken to court.

Yes upon checking the letter it is a fixed penalty notice. I plan on paying it, just needed to understand a little more. Thank you

We accept he wasn't intending to fare dodge. But - as we've learned on this forum - many people do get through barriers without a valid ticket. eg ticket to/from the nearest station, Railcard discounted ticket with no current Railcard, or a Child ticket.

When thinking about fare dodging my mind assumes not buying a ticket at all and that’s what I meant by not being able to get through the barrier. I realise I said valid ticket which of course alters it.