Flexible Rail Season Tickets - 2/3 days per week to be introduced by June 2021

[Bletchleyite]

This rather assumes that there are some reasonable cost savings to be had in the near future. I'm of the view that such cost savings are absolutely paramount, but the industry doesn't appear to have made much of a start in the 15 or so months we've already had and they will probably practically be very challenging to realise.

There are - less stock on lease and a simpler, all day timetable. But as stock can't be unscrapped and it can be hard to get staff back if they were made redundant, it is prudent to wait until the situation settles down post COVID before making those decisions.

That said, those are more South East things, much of the rest of the network operates near enough the same timetable all day anyway.

 

[Starmill]

I actually can’t believe how they managed to mess this up.
The new ticket works out worse value and less flexible than the existing carnets they have on TL/GN, and way way worse value if someone travelled off peak in one direction cos they chose to get rid of the peak time carnets. Smh

To be fair I don't think that's a mess up in the traditional sense, I think they intended for the new flexi season to cost more.

There are - less stock on lease and a simpler, all day timetable. But as stock can't be unscrapped and it can be hard to get staff back if they were made redundant, it is prudent to wait until the situation settles down post COVID before making those decisions.

That said, those are more South East things, much of the rest of the network operates near enough the same timetable all day anyway.

Indeed. So in other words savings that won't show on the balance sheet for years, and which may never show up at all. Where the cash crisis is this financial year.

 

[Haywain]

Or rather how cheap in relative terms to other types of tickets for the same journey.

No 'or' about it, that is exactly what I meant.

 

[Meerkat]

You can’t really please commuters - they are never going to be happy about paying to get to work and it’s never going to be cheap.
Probably good politics getting this done very early in the electoral cycle, and early enough that the anger is spread out - many won’t even look at it until they have to go back to the office

It is a different type of buying in bulk, but it is still buying in bulk

It’s a lot less bulk, and a lot more flexibility (ie tricky to plan capacity for)

 

[Alex C.]

You can’t really please commuters - they are never going to be happy about paying to get to work and it’s never going to be cheap.
Probably good politics getting this done very early in the electoral cycle, and early enough that the anger is spread out - many won’t even look at it until they have to go back to the office

It’s a lot less bulk, and a lot more flexibility (ie tricky to plan capacity for)

Which is fine but they've pitched the marketing completely wrong. Many websites are saying that the price will work out between an Anytime Daily ticket and a Weekly Ticket (which is technically true but very misleading), and they're still saying that for 2-3 days a week you'll make a saving when that's not true for a lot of flows.

Two changes which would have made it much more worthwhile would be to have extended it to 56 days of validity and to have provided a limited amount of free off peak travel (be that free weekends or a certain number of free off peak journeys). That would have differentiated it enough from the Carnet products which appear to have been better in many respects.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I am rather surprised that so many people expected the flexi ticket to be cheap

I expected it to be cheaper than actually buying individual tickets on the day. Clearly that was an unreasonable assumption. My bad.

 

[sammyg901]

Damp squib for me (and probably most people in the network railcard area) - any time single out and discounted off peak single back works out 84p more per trip without the risk of "wasting" any of the 8 tickets and being out of pocket

 

[JonathanH]

To some extent, this is a short term pre-cursor to PAYG-type single pricing that will have winners and losers and substantial fare simplification. The problem is that it is being introduced at the same time as other flexibilities continue to exist. There must be some sizable regret at both RDG and DfT that they weren't able to remove the anomalies (at considerable cost to users) ahead of introducing this product (which just serves to make train fares even more complicated in the eyes of 'normal' users).

 

[Watershed]

From the RDG staff brief, answers to a couple of points raised:

"Flexi Season tickets are not available for journeys entirely within the London Fare Zones Area"

"Flexi Season tickets are also not available on rail journeys entirely within the Scotrail network, the Transport for Wales network and the MerseyRail travel area."

"Not available on journeys entirely within the Merseyrail travel area" is rather different to "not valid on Merseyrail".

Clearly there is a degree of confusion amongst the industry. I only hope the correct message filters through to the frontline.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I am rather surprised that so many people expected the flexi ticket to be cheap, and that people try to work out what the price will be by what is ‘good value’.
How much subsidy do commuters want?! It seems they want the full bulk discount without buying in bulk.

I don't think its that odd or absurd! Most regular people aren't aware of the amount of subsidy season tickets get, so all they see is "I pay £200 a week for 5 days travel, I should be paying ~£120 a week for 3 days travel, and tbh I don't disagree with the, on that!

 

[Haywain]

I don't think its that odd or absurd! Most regular people aren't aware of the amount of subsidy season tickets get, so all they see is "I pay £200 a week for 5 days travel, I should be paying ~£120 a week for 3 days travel, and tbh I don't disagree with the, on that!

But they know full well that they wouldn't be paying £40 for one day, so there's no reason to think that it should be proportionate to the season price.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s a lot less bulk, and a lot more flexibility (ie tricky to plan capacity for)

I suspect capacity planning will be fairly easy. Fridays will be really quiet (as they long have been) and the other travellers will average between the days, as I can come up with good reasons to prefer any other pair.

 

[Meerkat]

I suspect capacity planning will be fairly easy. Fridays will be really quiet (as they long have been) and the other travellers will average between the days, as I can come up with good reasons to prefer any other pair.

Fair point, and helped if my assumption on rotas is correct. I think a lot of folk will be disappointed to find they don’t get to pick their WFH days as employers rota them to get whole teams in (otherwise the networking gains can be losses!) and be efficient on office space use.

 

[JonathanH]

I've found a flexible season ticket but the price must be a mistake. Not saying which two stations out in public in case it gets corrected

£142 compared to £77 for an anytime day return. Weekly is £138

Looking at other fares, I suspect that £142 is a mis-key for £412.

 

[Ken H]

Fair point, and helped if my assumption on rotas is correct. I think a lot of folk will be disappointed to find they don’t get to pick their WFH days as employers rota them to get whole teams in (otherwise the networking gains can be losses!) and be efficient on office space use.

I think you will have to book a hot desk for the day. 50 staff, expected in 3 days a week. so 30 desks.

 

[JonathanH]

But they know full well that they wouldn't be paying £40 for one day, so there's no reason to think that it should be proportionate to the season price.

On the other hand, TfL managed it for in-boundary travelcards (although they had somewhat more scope to do so).

 

[Meerkat]

I think you will have to book a hot desk for the day. 50 staff, expected in 3 days a week. so 30 desks.

Depends on the business but I would expect many to have rotas by team, particularly below 3 days a week. Not much point getting people in for synergy benefits if the colleagues they need to network with aren’t there and/or are spread all over a building.
Anyway this is probably going into a topic being done elsewhere - the uncertainty over this stuff is the point - how long will it take for the railway to be confident on demand level and spread, which impacts their costs and therefore their pricing (for subsidised trips)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

how long will it take for the railway to be confident on demand level and spread, which impacts their costs and therefore their pricing (for subsidised trips)?

I reckon about a year after all restrictions are lifted for things to settle down properly.

 

[Meerkat]

I reckon about a year after all restrictions are lifted for things to settle down properly.

Depends - largely settle down maybe, but the impacts of more WFH won’t really work through until more staff turnover and a couple of year ends have gone through??

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends - largely settle down maybe, but the impacts of more WFH won’t really work through until more staff turnover and a couple of year ends have gone through??

I think that'll be more slow evolution over time, just as train service provision evolves. The "big jump" will I reckon be possible to judge within a year or so (but certainly not less than 6 months) after the complete end to restrictions, whenever that happens to be.

 

[8rwg]

Something I’ve just found. East Croydon to Brighton, Anytime, Any Route is £27.60

27.60x8=220.80

and the flexi ticket is £242.40

 

[Meerkat]

Something I’ve just found. East Croydon to Brighton, Anytime, Any Route is £27.60

27.60x8=220.80

and the flexi ticket is £242.40

Don’t fret, they will soon notice and raise the anytime fare!

 

[Haywain]

Something I’ve just found. East Croydon to Brighton, Anytime, Any Route is £27.60

27.60x8=220.80

and the flexi ticket is £242.40

I'm guessing Brighton to East Croydon is a higher price for the Anytime ticket? Indeed it is, at £42.90. Any journey where peak fares against the main flow are cheaper is likely to have this happen.

 

[david1212]

To me the basic principle of a discount of x for a ticket allowing n journeys within d days is sound. What is critical is ensuring that 99% of journeys are checked / counted by either barriers, platform staff or on train staff.

The problem is applying it to a system that needs totally reforming to be much more consistent.

Take Winchester - Waterloo as a bad example. The distance is around 68 miles.

The anytime open return is £80.40 and the day return £76.80.
The off peak return is £40.90 and super off peak day return is £37.20
Then a super off peak weekend day return at £34.80.

The former is an expensive ~60p/mile while even the latter is ~25p/mile.

The annual season ticket is £5580.
For 200 days that is £27.90 per day - yes £6.90 less than even the super off peak weekend day return.
Cut the 200 days to 100 days then £55.80 per day.

8 days @ £76.80 in 28 with even 20% discount is £61.44 per day ..........

The core issue that all the one journey tickets need to be if not 50% 40% cheaper.
Using 40% 8 days in 28 with 20% discount would then be £36.87 per day, which is ~33% more than the £27.90 per day for 200 days on an annual season ticket.

Yes, you aren't limited to getting one per 28 days.

Conversely, if you end up not using your 8 tickets within the 28 days (or indeed even before the 28 days are up) you can get a refund. You'll be refunded the difference between the cost of the "Flexi Season" and the relevant number of Anytime (Day) Returns, less a £10 admin fee.

With the admin fee once 6 of the 8 journeys are used for the some refund will be zilch or so small not to be worth the hassle.

 

[Haywain]

if you end up not using your 8 tickets within the 28 days (or indeed even before the 28 days are up) you can get a refund.

Refunds are only available within the 28 days of validity.

The core issue that all the one journey tickets need to be if not 50% 40% cheaper.

Why? It looks to me that the season ticket really should cost more.

 

[Kite159]

Looking at other fares, I suspect that £142 is a mis-key for £412.

Or it was meant to be £442 based on the price of another flex season ticket to the station group before

 

[Starmill]

Why? It looks to me that the season ticket really should cost more.

Maybe it should, but presumably if the season ticket were notably more expensive it would start to be genuinely too expensive for people to actually buy it. I think a lot of annual season rates were already close to their practical limits after the recent super-inflationary rise.

 

[mmh]

Seems the thing to do for most 2 day a week people is to see if they can travel Thursday and Friday one week, and Monday and Tuesday the next. Bingo, two weekly seasons required per 28 days. (This sort of thing is why two-week working rosters are far better than single week. Doesn't matter if most people do the same each week and those who don't are the exception, you can accomodate both)

 

[Wolfie]

HMT?


Flexi seasons are specifically NOT available for child fares.

Sorry, Her Majesty's Treasury.

Indeed, but friends have made relying on AP tickets work for 2-3 day/week commuting.

The point is both the general caveat emptor that applies to these tickets, and that on some flows, sensible use of point to point tickets can provide better value than season tickets.

Re your second para, absolutely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems the thing to do for most 2 day a week people is to see if they can travel Thursday and Friday one week, and Monday and Tuesday the next. Bingo, two weekly seasons required per 28 days. (This sort of thing is why two-week working rosters are far better than single week. Doesn't matter if most people do the same each week and those who don't are the exception, you can accomodate both)

Most people won't want to do Fridays. In any case, the railway should accommodate those who want to use it, not the other way round.