Flying Scotsman

[VEP3417]

what i do is have a quick look on google maps if im looking for a good spot

do we think the same times apply give or take from sailsbury to eastleigh?

 

[sduob]

As it turned out, I found a rather splendid spot beside a quiet level crossing. Taken on my camera phone (so excuse instability, I was more interested in watching the train, not the screen!), but shooting at 30fps 1080p. Surprised - and pleased with - how great the video looks!

[youtube]MSt7ytjT_LU[/youtube]

 

[trainmania100]

The return trip has ground tro a halt

No its not trespassers

Unfortunately there is a house fire blocking the line. Hope everyone is OK and got out safely

 

[Harbornite]

Re non performing steam excursions -


Not if I am promised one loco and another turns up

Not if I am promised one route or destination and another is substituted

Not if the locos are not maintained so as to give substantial confidence that they will actually turn up on the day.

The contrasts with the rock stage are 100% accurate - If I book for Fleetwood Mac and the promoter stages Rumours of Fleetwood Mac then that is either negligence or fraud and the same is true in the railtour world.

Promoters and suppliers are caught by the Consumer Protection Act 2015 either directly or through their contractual inclusion in the supply chain and it is high time that some or all were dragged before the courts to explain their failings - I think we got pretty damned near ten days ago with the Flying Scotsman clearance fiasco - but the very top men at NR saw the egg approaching their faces and ducked it by burning the midnight oil to deliver what they should have provided in a timely fashion all along.

When one pays around £100 - £300 for a steam excursion one is not lucky that it is available. One is a paying customer who together with others has paid for the product offered and is entitled to the very best endeavours by the providers to deliver it - and not some unloved, dirty old duff, and full compensation if the promised level of service is not provided!

Not the best comparison, is it? If the requested loco is unavailable, just be glad that another one has been substituted because that's better than having to cancel the tour. It's unrealistic to expect locomotives to be available 100% of the time, and this is especially true regarding the diesel locomotives that are operated by the freight companies.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The return trip has ground tro a halt

No its not trespassers

Unfortunately there is a house fire blocking the line. Hope everyone is OK and got out safely

All on the move but about 40min down

 

[hurricanemk1c]

Not the best comparison, is it? If the requested loco is unavailable, just be glad that another one has been substituted because that's better than having to cancel the tour. It's unrealistic to expect locomotives to be available 100% of the time, and this is especially true regarding the diesel locomotives that are operated by the freight companies.

Isn't there always a clause that says "Loco availablity is not guaranteed although every effort will be made to make it happen". That's what has been on the booking forms and every tour thing I've ever had

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Time to get some replica Flying Scotsmans

There cannot be much of the original left in the one that is currently doing the rounds.

Where is the line drawn between rebuild and replica?

 

[TBirdFrank]

Originally Posted by Harbornite  View Post
Not the best comparison, is it? If the requested loco is unavailable, just be glad that another one has been substituted because that's better than having to cancel the tour. It's unrealistic to expect locomotives to be available 100% of the time, and this is especially true regarding the diesel locomotives that are operated by the freight companies.
Isn't there always a clause that says "Loco availablity is not guaranteed although every effort will be made to make it happen". That's what has been on the booking forms and every tour thing I've ever had

I can only say again - please read what the promoters put in their terms.

Then read the Consumer Protection Act and what "every effort" means

Certain tour promoters have a little bit too much in common with Pinnochio to withstand any properly phrased challenge.

Traders - including tour operators are legally required to :-

Be honest in their advertising
Use a reasonable level of skill and professionalism in their business planning
Not to try to push unreasonable conditions onto clients.

Advertising non cleared routes, unconfirmed timings and locos still under overhaul cannot be honest dealing.

Once deficiencies are found operators should update their publicity, not maintain their chosen fiction.

On the day or force majeure exceptions are of course reasonable - promising such as two jubilees and delivering a Black Five and a Duff as widely predicted well in advance by those in the business is not.

The attaching of a diesel on the rear is moot. DB seem to operate a shadow - great - we get pure steam. WCRC plead cost etc and hang 100 tons of Duff on an excursion and completely undermine its value as an experience.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I can only say again - please read what the promoters put in their terms.

Then read the Consumer Protection Act and what "every effort" means

Certain tour promoters have a little bit too much in common with Pinnochio to withstand any properly phrased challenge.

Traders - including tour operators are legally required to :-

Be honest in their advertising
Use a reasonable level of skill and professionalism in their business planning
Not to try to push unreasonable conditions onto clients.

Advertising non cleared routes, unconfirmed timings and locos still under overhaul cannot be honest dealing.

Once deficiencies are found operators should update their publicity, not maintain their chosen fiction.

On the day or force majeure exceptions are of course reasonable - promising such as two jubilees and delivering a Black Five and a Duff as widely predicted well in advance by those in the business is not. 

The attaching of a diesel on the rear is moot. DB seem to operate a shadow - great - we get pure steam. WCRC plead cost etc and hang 100 tons of Duff on an excursion and completely undermine its value as an experience.[/QUOTE]

???? Well if you don't like it, don't ever go on a tour....

Old steam engines can and do break down. I am sure steam tours are exempt from the Consumer Protection Act in part for this very reason. 

As for dishonest advertising of a specific engine, I have never, ever seen this. What would be the point? It would not be in the interest of the tour company to mis-advertise. But, if - for example I went on a tour that was advertised to be Flying Scotsman; it broke down on its way to start the tour and Tornado was substituted instead, I wouldn't be that bothered. 

As for a Duff on the back, I think this is used to provide electricity for heating and lighting. So if you don't want to be cold and sitting in semi-darkness, may I suggest you avoid any tours with a diesel on the back. 

Don't forget that WDRC had their licence revoked once, I'm sure they don't want it revoked again. 

Just remember, its not every day a steam engine is allowed on the main line, just be grateful that this is allowed to happen.

 

[DarloRich]

I can only say again - please read what the promoters put in their terms.

Then read the Consumer Protection Act and what "every effort" means

Please provide a link to what "every effort" means as the act seem to refer to reasonable care and skill

Certain tour promoters have a little bit too much in common with Pinnochio to withstand any properly phrased challenge.

Traders - including tour operators are legally required to :-

Be honest in their advertising
Use a reasonable level of skill and professionalism in their business planning
Not to try to push unreasonable conditions onto clients.

Advertising non cleared routes, unconfirmed timings and locos still under overhaul cannot be honest dealing.

Once deficiencies are found operators should update their publicity, not maintain their chosen fiction.

What are you talking about? The adverts, I am sure, promise loco X subject to availability although you clearly have an axe to grind with NR and certain promoters. However all you seem to do is talk in generalities.

On the day or force majeure exceptions are of course reasonable - promising such as two jubilees and delivering a Black Five and a Duff as widely predicted well in advance by those in the business is not.

Odd, as earlier you seemed to be suggesting that failure to deliver your promised kettle was enough to enable you to demand an instant refund. Odd also that you cant respond to those who challenge you understanding and application of the legislation.

The attaching of a diesel on the rear is moot. DB seem to operate a shadow - great - we get pure steam. WCRC plead cost etc and hang 100 tons of Duff on an excursion and completely undermine its value as an experience.

what are you on about? :roll:

 

[TBirdFrank]

Two perfect examples of why enthusiasts get turned over time and again.

No-one is exempt from the law. If you believe that please leave your door open and I'll be round with a van shortly.

If you have never seen advertising of locos that aren't available then I suggest you go to Specsavers. It has been happening for years, clearly and openly. 6023, 6100, 6201 on and on it goes.

When rolling stock is properly maintained it will last a journey without failing electrics, with working steam heating so no need for a towed 100 ton power pack, etc. When a loco is required for operational reasons DB trail it. Only WCRC take the cheap option of hanging it on the back and annoying many steam devotees. The difference is maintenance standards and in the road world we all know that many Mk1s would never pass an MoT, but on rail the passenger does not seem to matter, provided their is a B & Q bolt on the door.

For the man from Darlington - ask a solicitor - he will tell you what "every Effort" means and what a trader is bound to do if those words are in play. Strangely enough it means - "Every Effort" less and the trader is in breach!

You just don't get the point about honest dealing go you? The CPA 2015 was drafted particularly to protect fools like you who are a scammers dream! Please Mr Scammer take my money - I don't care what you give me for it provided it bears some distant resemblance toy what you sold me in your advert. If you can't understand the difference then there is no helping you is there.

Force Majeure - the only point where you do get it - and you still want to make a dispute - get wise!

Again - about diesels attached or running separate - you really are being obtuse now aren't you. Steam enthusiasts want steam trains - not hybrids.

The difference between us is some of us know our law and expect what we pay for. Others seem happy with anything but.

That is why some of us are winners and others losers.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

what are you on about? :roll:

God alone knows, and the bearded one upstairs sure as hell ain't saying much

When rolling stock is properly maintained it will last a journey without failing electrics, with working steam heating so no need for a towed 100 ton power pack, etc. When a loco is required for operational reasons DB trail it. Only WCRC take the cheap option of hanging it on the back and annoying many steam devotees.

What would you rather have? A few disappointed steam fans or thousands of people disappointed and delayed when diesel powered help is not at hand right away? With a diesel on the back, the train can be pushed or dragged out of the way fairly quickly.

 

[DarloRich]

I am sorry, i have no idea what you are on about. The jumble of words below don't really help other than to show your connection with the real world is tenuous at best.

Two perfect examples of why enthusiasts get turned over time and again.

Why? For saying your interpretation of untested legislation might not be 100% accurate?

No-one is exempt from the law. If you believe that please leave your door open and I'll be round with a van shortly.

I agree - however you seem unable to understand that legislation and the application of it is not as black and white as you think. Any real legal experience would tell you that.

If you have never seen advertising of locos that aren't available then I suggest you go to Specsavers. It has been happening for years, clearly and openly. 6023, 6100, 6201 on and on it goes

I assume these are locomotives advertised for future tours whilst they are undergoing an overhaul which subsequently aren't ready when the tour comes round so the promoter ran the tour with something else. Whilst for you and other kettlistas certain locos may be the key to the day out for many going on a steam train is what they want. This will have been provided in most cases.

When rolling stock is properly maintained it will last a journey without failing electrics, with working steam heating so no need for a towed 100 ton power pack, etc. When a loco is required for operational reasons DB trail it. Only WCRC take the cheap option of hanging it on the back and annoying many steam devotees. The difference is maintenance standards and in the road world we all know that many Mk1s would never pass an MoT, but on rail the passenger does not seem to matter, provided their is a B & Q bolt on the door.

GOD we cant annoy the steam devotees can we? I bet they will put their hands in their pocket and cover the fines when a 70 year old loco fails. The loco isn't their solely to provide ETS you know don't you - it is oftne there to shunt the train, or would you prefer to walk home?


And back to wibbling about rolling stock - would you prefer a set of mkiii's on your heritage tour? How would that square with your obsession about "experience"?

For the man from Darlington - ask a solicitor - he will tell you what "every Effort" means and what a trader is bound to do if those words are in play. Strangely enough it means - "Every Effort" less and the trader is in breach!

I am asking you as you gold your self out as an expert. Also provide a link to the legislation that refers to and defines those words in this context.

You just don't get the point about honest dealing go you? The CPA 2015 was drafted particularly to protect fools like you who are a scammers dream! Please Mr Scammer take my money - I don't care what you give me for it provided it bears some distant resemblance toy what you sold me in your advert. If you can't understand the difference then there is no helping you is there.

No: I understand your point entirely, I just don think that you right or that you are able to grasp that legisialtion is rarely as black and white as you think.

As for the stuff about scammers dream :roll:

Force Majeure - the only point where you do get it - and you still want to make a dispute - get wise!

Again - about diesels attached or running separate - you really are being obtuse now aren't you. Steam enthusiasts want steam trains - not hybrids.

The difference between us is some of us know our law and expect what we pay for. Others seem happy with anything but.

That is why some of us are winners and others losers.

Sadly you THINK you know the law. I am not sure you do but feel free to try a test case.

I am at the point of giving up now. All i will say is the legislation is untested at law and to make declarations about it without case law or precedent is dangerous

 

[NSEFAN]

When rolling stock is properly maintained it will last a journey without failing electrics, with working steam heating so no need for a towed 100 ton power pack, etc. When a loco is required for operational reasons DB trail it. Only WCRC take the cheap option of hanging it on the back and annoying many steam devotees. The difference is maintenance standards and in the road world we all know that many Mk1s would never pass an MoT, but on rail the passenger does not seem to matter, provided their is a B & Q bolt on the door.

Do you think that the charter sector is doing things that are dangerous? If so, why complain on here about it and not instead report your concerns to the ORR?

 

[ryan125hst]

When rolling stock is properly maintained it will last a journey without failing electrics, with working steam heating so no need for a towed 100 ton power pack, etc. When a loco is required for operational reasons DB trail it. Only WCRC take the cheap option of hanging it on the back and annoying many steam devotees.

Not all coaches used on railtours can be steam heated (even Mark 1's) so require either a generator van or a loco to provide ETS.

Additionally, some charter coaches are vacuum braked including the set that Flying Scotsman is using. Back in BR days, most locos would have had vacuum brakes in addition to air brakes. Vacuum brakes are rare on the mainline today as all Class 66 freight locos, Class 67 Thunderbirds etc. only have air brakes. If the steam loco was to fail and they need another loco to rescue it, they'll have a difficult job finding a vacuum braked locomotive that is nearby to rescue the train. All of DB Schenker's tours are with air braked stock and all there numerous locos have air brakes, so rescuing them is easy should the need arise. I also believe that DB's Class 67's can run light engine at 100 mph or maybe even 125 mph due to better braking performance. West Coast's Class 47's, on the other hand, are limited to 75 mph when running light as the majority of locos are. This would mean a long weight for a vacuum braked loco if a rescue was required.

Saying that, when I went on a steam railtour from Retford to York back in 2014, there was no loco on the back from what I remember. I was on the same vacuum braked set that Flying Scotsman is running with (it seems to be Steam Dream's set)

 

[VEP3417]

we all know that many Mk1s would never pass an MoT, but on rail the passenger does not seem to matter, provided their is a B & Q bolt on the door.
.

so true i remember thinking, whats the point

i suppose the alternative being the expencive option like on the old lymington trains and the thumper which i think where magnets that could be turned off and on....i had to mention to the guard a few times on the lymington train that he needed to unlock the doors when they first installed thos doors

 

[ARoo21]

Flying Scotsman will now not work Day 1 of the Cambrian Coast Express (London Paddington to Shrewsbury/Pwllheli) on Sunday 5th June.

Flying Scotsman will haul this train on Day 4 (Wednesday 8th June from Crewe to London Paddington.)

 

[Harbornite]

The Flying Scotsman will now not work Day 1 of the Cambrian Coast Express (London Paddington to Shrewsbury/Pwllheli) on Sunday 5th June.

The Flying Scotsman will haul this train on Day 4 (Wednesday 8th June from Crewe to London Paddington.)

Oh dear, any ideas what will replace it for that?

 

[Chris125]

Oh dear, any ideas what will replace it for that?

IIRC the return leg was due to be diesel hauled, so they've just swapped them around.

 

[DarloRich]

does it not work Victoria to York on the 4th? Perhaps it was felt it was to much to work consecutive days

 

[ARoo21]

does it not work Victoria to York on the 4th? Perhaps it was felt it was to much to work consecutive days

Yes, that's why it's been taken off Day 1 and put on Day 4 from Crewe - London instead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh dear, any ideas what will replace it for that?

Diesel hauled, so likely to be WCRC 47/57(s)

 

[Deepgreen]

The Flying Scotsman will now not work Day 1 of the Cambrian Coast Express (London Paddington to Shrewsbury/Pwllheli) on Sunday 5th June.

The Flying Scotsman will haul this train on Day 4 (Wednesday 8th June from Crewe to London Paddington.)

"The Flying Scotsman" is the King'sCross to Edinburgh train, not the engine, which is called 'Flying Scotsman'.

 

[DarloRich]

"The Flying Scotsman" is the King'sCross to Edinburgh train, not the engine, which is called 'Flying Scotsman'.

:roll: Most normal people call it "The Flying Scotsman" as they call Mallard "The Mallard", although Tornado isnt really "the Tornado"!

Normal people don't realise or care about the semantic difference between a train service and a locomotive name. To them it is one and the same. We can not all be perfect and it really isn't worth the level of spotterish wibble and sneering this simple mistake seems to cause.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

I remember going up on the Leeds Railtour last month, and one of the stewards said 'Are you going to try and see Flying Scotsman?'

So I said 'Well I would, but it's on Scottish routes today'
He repied 'No! You won't see it! It's been cancelled, it won't fir through the platforms!'

I said 'No, I'm on about the Class 91'

I didn't actually realise the actual Flying Scotsman was supposed to be out that day!

 

[rangersql]

Hi,

I know it's a difficult question, but has anyone got timings for her passing through Doncaster please?

Thanks....

 

[Deepgreen]

:roll: Most normal people call it "The Flying Scotsman" as they call Mallard "The Mallard", although Tornado isnt really "the Tornado"!

Normal people don't realise or care about the semantic difference between a train service and a locomotive name. To them it is one and the same. We can not all be perfect and it really isn't worth the level of spotterish wibble and sneering this simple mistake seems to cause.

Possibly, but it might be expected that people contributing to a railway forum would know the difference. Clearly not. BTW, I don't think I can recall 'Mallard' being called 'The Mallard'. Maybe that's because there's no train of that name to cause apparent confusion.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

"The Flying Scotsman" is the King'sCross to Edinburgh train, not the engine, which is called 'Flying Scotsman'.

There was a TV Programme about Flying Scotsman very recently and a railwayman had to tell the presenter the very same thing.

I went on the lunch time circular yesterday hauled by Flying Scotsman, it was good, but the original route via Oxford and Bicester was not possible which was a shame, it would have meant some new and unusual track too, so it went round the Surrey Hills so did not get much of an opportunity to get speed up apart from a bit between Shalford and Reigate. I was in the very rear carriage. It was still a good day though. There did not seem to be too much of an overcrowding or trespass problem, the staff at Victoria seemed to have it in control and there were not a huge amount of people really along the tracks or stations. We arrived back into Victoria 3 minutes early.

Hopefully I shall be able to travel behind her again on a faster line.

 

[Deepgreen]

Fairly interesting departure from Victoria yesterday - "is there a steam train coming?"!

 

[DarloRich]

Fairly interesting departure from Victoria yesterday - "is there a steam train coming?"!

I am hoping to see it on Saturday

 

[ainsworth74]

I am hoping to see it on Saturday

On the basis of that image you might end up seeing a cloud rather than a locomotive!