Folkestone - Witham

[Southern]

Trying to work out permitted routes for a route for a trip from Folkestone - Witham I'm planning but having no luck with the journey planner.

Would rather take the train from Liverpool Street, instead of faffing around changing at Stratford, plus my aunt wants to meet me in Central London so...

Anyway, the fare I've found is an Open Return priced at £37.00 with Railcard but the journey planner is insisting I change at Stratford International, instead of St Pancras and tube to Liverpool Street. Any help would be much appreciated, thanks in advance!

 

[alistairlees]

Trying to work out permitted routes for a route for a trip from Folkestone - Witham I'm planning but having no luck with the journey planner.

Would rather take the train from Liverpool Street, instead of faffing around changing at Stratford, plus my aunt wants to meet me in Central London so...

Anyway, the fare I've found is an Open Return priced at £37.00 with Railcard but the journey planner is insisting I change at Stratford International, instead of St Pancras and tube to Liverpool Street. Any help would be much appreciated, thanks in advance!

Which journey planner?

 

[jfollows]

As well as the obvious route (HS1 then GEML) you can use any allowed routes
Folkestone-Ashford-London

Folkestone-Dover-London (possibly, but I've not gone into the details to be sure)

and then
London-Witham
(map CO, so GEML again)
Maps at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps

But LONDON is a valid route for the journey, so you don't really care about the detail of valid routes between Folkestone and London! But you may need to get a ticket not on HS1 in order to generate an itinerary.

 

[Watershed]

Trying to work out permitted routes for a route for a trip from Folkestone - Witham I'm planning but having no luck with the journey planner.

Would rather take the train from Liverpool Street, instead of faffing around changing at Stratford, plus my aunt wants to meet me in Central London so...

Anyway, the fare I've found is an Open Return priced at £37.00 with Railcard but the journey planner is insisting I change at Stratford International, instead of St Pancras and tube to Liverpool Street. Any help would be much appreciated, thanks in advance!

The reason why journey planners are refusing to offer an itinerary via HS1 to St Pancras and then on to Witham is that this route is barred by a negative easement in the Routeing Guide:

600069
Customers travelling from or via Stratford Domestic station to or via London St Pancras may not travel via Stratford International except on tickets routed 00131 Plus High Speed. This easement applies in both directions

Obviously the intention here is to prevent the use of 'loophole fares' on HS1, however it also catches out journeys such as this, where the through fare is routed "✠ANY PERMITTED" rather than "Plus High Speed".

In practice there is no chance this easement will be enforced. Provided you don't have a "✠NOT VALID ON HS1" ticket, staff on the ground will treat your ticket as valid on HS1.

 

[paul1609]

Trying to work out permitted routes for a route for a trip from Folkestone - Witham I'm planning but having no luck with the journey planner.

Would rather take the train from Liverpool Street, instead of faffing around changing at Stratford, plus my aunt wants to meet me in Central London so...

Anyway, the fare I've found is an Open Return priced at £37.00 with Railcard but the journey planner is insisting I change at Stratford International, instead of St Pancras and tube to Liverpool Street. Any help would be much appreciated, thanks in advance!

I've done a few trips from Appledore to Hythe (Colchester) via HS1 and never had an issue with staff or barriers at either Stratford Station. Stratford with a walk (or dlr) between the stations is by far the quickest route to/from East Anglia to the Kent Coasts, its on average 40 mins faster than going via London. If you want to break in central London it really depends where in Central London, southbank, trafalgar Square, and Southwest from Victoria it's not worth going via HS1 in my experience. If not done it before the SEML from New Cross into Charing Cross is probably the most spectacular rail approach to any London Terminal.

 

[miklcct]

Obviously the intention here is to prevent the use of 'loophole fares' on HS1, however it also catches out journeys such as this, where the through fare is routed "✠ANY PERMITTED" rather than "Plus High Speed".

And in practice, the "normal routing" for such journeys is to change at Stratford, where the ✠ allows you to take the DLR at Stratford.

However, I can't understand why it's not worthing using the HS1 from Folkestone to South Bank (Waterloo), Trafalgar Square or southwest from Victoria. Isn't taking the HS1 and the Victoria Line / Northern Line the normal routing from Folkestone?

 

[Southern]

Which journey planner?

Tried both Southeastern and National Rail.

As well as the obvious route (HS1 then GEML) you can use any allowed routes
Folkestone-Ashford-London
View attachment 112844
Folkestone-Dover-London (possibly, but I've not gone into the details to be sure)
View attachment 112845
and then
London-Witham
(map CO, so GEML again)
Maps at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps

But LONDON is a valid route for the journey, so you don't really care about the detail of valid routes between Folkestone and London! But you may need to get a ticket not on HS1 in order to generate an itinerary.

Ah ok, cool, thanks!

The reason why journey planners are refusing to offer an itinerary via HS1 to St Pancras and then on to Witham is that this route is barred by a negative easement in the Routeing Guide:


Obviously the intention here is to prevent the use of 'loophole fares' on HS1, however it also catches out journeys such as this, where the through fare is routed "✠ANY PERMITTED" rather than "Plus High Speed".

In practice there is no chance this easement will be enforced. Provided you don't have a "✠NOT VALID ON HS1" ticket, staff on the ground will treat your ticket as valid on HS1.

Ah ok, good to know for future reference, cheers!

I've done a few trips from Appledore to Hythe (Colchester) via HS1 and never had an issue with staff or barriers at either Stratford Station. Stratford with a walk (or dlr) between the stations is by far the quickest route to/from East Anglia to the Kent Coasts, its on average 40 mins faster than going via London. If you want to break in central London it really depends where in Central London, southbank, trafalgar Square, and Southwest from Victoria it's not worth going via HS1 in my experience. If not done it before the SEML from New Cross into Charing Cross is probably the most spectacular rail approach to any London Terminal.

Yh true, for me it's the aversion to Westfield's and the thought of not getting a seat at Stratford for the Witham leg. And I agree with you about New Cross - Charing Cross, one of my top three along with Clapham - Victoria and also have a soft spot for the Euston approaches.

 

[paul1609]

Tried both Southeastern and National Rail.


Ah ok, cool, thanks!


Ah ok, good to know for future reference, cheers!


Yh true, for me it's the aversion to Westfield's and the thought of not getting a seat at Stratford for the Witham leg. And I agree with you about New Cross - Charing Cross, one of my top three along with Clapham - Victoria and also have a soft spot for the Euston approaches.

When the train arrives at Stratfield International turn right and go out through the country end exit. At the street turn left for a couple of hundred yards. At the end turn right and follow the road through the bus station to where the over bridge is then turn right at the station sign, very little Westfield tbh.

 

[Southern]

When the train arrives at Stratfield International turn right and go out through the country end exit. At the street turn left for a couple of hundred yards. At the end turn right and follow the road through the bus station to where the over bridge is then turn right at the station sign, very little Westfield tbh.

Ah ok, thanks - will remember for next time!

 

[Watershed]

However, I can't understand why it's not worthing using the HS1 from Folkestone to South Bank (Waterloo), Trafalgar Square or southwest from Victoria. Isn't taking the HS1 and the Victoria Line / Northern Line the normal routing from Folkestone?

You might well choose to do that, however given the availability of direct trains to Charing Cross, many people prefer to take those, even if the journey is slightly slower. It's also cheaper - notably so if you are travelling at a time when the Super Off-Peak Day Return is valid.