Followed advice of conductor to our detriment

[Deegsie]

Hi

Can anyone advise how I can appeal my penalty fare notice?

I boarded the 11.45am train from Shipley to Leeds today with my daughter without purchasing a ticket on the advice of the conductor, we’ll call her “K”. K gave her name and said to purchase a ticket at Leeds train station instead of with her because her ticket selling device had run out of battery. She said mention her name and it would be okay.
We would have waited and not boarded the train had we not received advice from a member of staff. We of course followed her advice and this was obviously not the case. Do I have grounds for appeal? I have no evidence other than what has been described above. TIA

 

[AlterEgo]

What was the interaction you had at Leeds? What did the inspector tell you there? (I assume this is where you were penalty fared)

Why did you not buy a ticket at Shipley?

You can certainly appeal if the conductor gave you authority to travel, but it would help to know more details first. Do you have a copy of the notice?

 

[Deegsie]

At Leeds I tried to purchase a ticket at the ticket office before the barriers but the ticket office person said I couldn’t and must speak to the revenue team.

I didn’t buy a ticket at Shipley because a train arrived and there was an opportunity to board the train without a ticket because we had authority from the conductor to board. We could have purchased a ticket and wait for the next one.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

You will probably understand that, without having any written authority from the train manager, the revenue staff at Leeds had no idea whether you were telling the truth or not. You should also be aware that it was your responsibility to buy a ticket at Shipley station (e.g. at the ticket office) before trying to board a train.

To provide guidance we do need to see the document you have been given, with your personal details redacted.

 

[Haywain]

We also need to clearly understand when this was discussed with guard - prior to boarding or during the journey - and exactly what was said.

 

[AdamWW]

You should also be aware that it was your responsibility to buy a ticket at Shipley station (e.g. at the ticket office) before trying to board a train.

Unless of course if given permission by an authorised person (bylaw 18.3).
I would hope that a passenger is entitled to assume that the guard on a train is such an authorised person.

You will probably understand that, without having any written authority from the train manager,

Just for clarity, although there are obvious advantages to written rather than verbal permission, there is no requirement (in the byelaws or the NRCoT) for such permission to be in writing.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Unless of course if given permission by an authorised person (bylaw 18.3).
I would hope that a passenger is entitled to assume that the guard on a train is such an authorised person.
Just for clarity, although there are obvious advantages to written rather than verbal permission, there is no requirement (in the byelaws or the NRCoT) for such permission to be in writing.

Yes but the practicalities are that Northern wants to deter ticketless travel so their revenue staff are unlikely to accept verbal claims at face value, and the inconvenience and risks of challenging a penalty fare or other demand will usually exceed the inconvenience of buying a ticket first.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Where and when did you speak to the conductor who informed you their ticket machine was out of battery?

If you were already on the train then an offence had already been committed and it is unlikely an appeal will succeed. There are still advantages in making one though in that it will prevent Northern from prosecuting you for the offence. However if you pay the Penalty Fare then that would also close the matter.

 

[AlterEgo]

Where and when did you speak to the conductor who informed you their ticket machine was out of battery?

If you were already on the train then an offence had already been committed and it is unlikely an appeal will succeed.

Why not? The liability for a Penalty Fare is established when someone comes across an Authorised Collector. They cannot retrospectively punish you for a Bylaw offence by way of Penalty Fare, which is a totally separate issue.

The conductor giving authority to travel - regardless of whether this was done before or after boarding - is a valid ground to appeal the Penalty Fare.

 

[Haywain]

The conductor giving authority to travel - regardless of whether this was done before or after boarding - is a valid ground to appeal the Penalty Fare.

If the conductor said, “I can’t sell you a ticket, you’ll have to get one at Leeds”, does that actually constitute permission to travel? I’m not convinced it does.

 

[AlterEgo]

If the conductor said, “I can’t sell you a ticket, you’ll have to get one at Leeds”, does that actually constitute permission to travel? I’m not convinced it does.

How could it not? They could tell the passenger they must leave at the next station, something they are absolutely entitled to do under Bylaw 24 (2) 1. Instead they allowed the passenger to travel, and advised them of their next opportunity to purchase a ticket.

If it was at a booking office and they said "Sorry our systems are down, we can't sell you a ticket, you can buy at your destination" I would also think this was authority to travel.

 

[KirkstallOne]

I see the logic but definitely a more difficult argument to make.

I boarded the 11.45am train from Shipley to Leeds today with my daughter without purchasing a ticket on the advice of the conductor

implies op spoke to a conductor before boarding. @Deegsie can you confirm exactly when and where the exchange with the conductor took place?

 

[AdamWW]

Yes but the practicalities are that Northern wants to deter ticketless travel so their revenue staff are unlikely to accept verbal claims at face value, and the inconvenience and risks of challenging a penalty fare or other demand will usually exceed the inconvenience of buying a ticket first.

Right so it may be good advice.

But in your previous post you told the OP that they had a responsibility to purchase before travel, even though they said that the guard gave permission.

If someone comes here for help, I don't think we should be suggesting that they have committed an offence when by their account of events they have not done so.

I consider myself fairly well informed on rail ticketing and, perhaps foolishly, I would be happy to board a train without a ticket if the guard gave me permission. Though if then told that I should buy at the far end, I might ask if they could write something to that effect down for me.

In this case, given that it relates to a named guard on a known train rather than a case of "someone in a uniform at the station said", I would have thought that by rights an appeal should succeed unless the guard is contacted and can definitively state that the passenger's account is incorrect. Though they might try the "Our staff are told not to do this so it can't have happened" line.

 

[Haywain]

They could tell the passenger they must leave at the next station,

The next station was Leeds so, arguably, they did. Until the OP returns and gives a bit more detail we can't really have any certainty about this.

 

[SeanW90]

Hi

Can anyone advise how I can appeal my penalty fare notice?

I boarded the 11.45am train from Shipley to Leeds today with my daughter without purchasing a ticket on the advice of the conductor, we’ll call her “K”. K gave her name and said to purchase a ticket at Leeds train station instead of with her because her ticket selling device had run out of battery. She said mention her name and it would be okay.
We would have waited and not boarded the train had we not received advice from a member of staff. We of course followed her advice and this was obviously not the case. Do I have grounds for appeal? I have no evidence other than what has been described above. TIA

The guard should’ve given a written authority to travel. I would’ve given my name, depot and work phone number with a dated and signed note explaining the situation.

 

[rs101]

The guard should’ve given a written authority to travel. I would’ve given my name, depot and work phone number with a dated and signed note explaining the situation.

Trouble is, there's no standard document for that, so why should your piece of paper be accepted?

 

[AlterEgo]

Trouble is, there's no standard document for that, so why should your piece of paper be accepted?

Because it has verifiable information on it that only the staff member - and not the customer - would know, including a phone number.

 

[furlong]

Trouble is, there's no standard document for that, so why should your piece of paper be accepted?

On the contrary, this is common practice and there IS a standard format (or rather, staff who saw one would have a pretty good idea what's genuine and what isn't).

Yes the OP should appeal, giving as much information about the authority to travel as they can (time, place, departure time, staff name) and quote the part of the regulations that says that any burden of (dis)proof lies with the train company. In other words the appeals panel has to accept this happened unless the train company produces contrary evidence (e.g. by way of a statement from the named individual).

 

[LowLevel]

Trouble is, there's no standard document for that, so why should your piece of paper be accepted?

The information contained on an endorsement is standard and easily verifiable by contacting the relevant TOC's control office.