Football

[yoyothehobo]

Are the Netherlands not a "big" team then?

We've gone from not qualifying (2008), losing to Iceland (20160 and finishing bottom of the group (2012) to beating the Germans and the Dutch in knock-out football.

Like what, putting Watkins and Palmer on in the semi (Palmer assist, Watkins goal) and the same again in the final?

Kane's not been fit, obviously, and you have to question whether resting him earlier would have helped. But "too old, too slow, past it" Harry Kane's just scored 44 goals in 45 starts for Bayern Munich this season. It's a braver man than me who drops him for Ivan Toney, who's scored 4 goals for Brentford since coming back from suspension.

Netherlands arent a big team, certainly nothing special since 2010/4. A Netherlands side that finished third in their group and sneaked into the knockout stages

We played well against Germany in 2018, arguably the best Southgates England ever played, but it was an admittedly poor Germany Side and it was 6 years ago. If the best we have to go off is that we beat Germany 6 years ago, we beat Argentina in the group stages in 2002.

All this shows me realistically is that England are roughly at the same level we have ever been at, with 2008-2016 being a poor patch.

I wouldnt mind but the football we have played for the last couple of years has been turgid, unadventurous and tactically conservative to the point of the aim of each game is not to lose, rather than to win.

He made his first change against the Netherlands 80 minutes in. Its reactionary, he never looks to change the game. Kane was doing nothing at that point and the change were 15 minutes too late.

Same with in the final. Kane was clearly unfit and his presence was negative on the whole team performance and shape. Once the sub was made things improved massively...for 10-15 minutes.

I have watched Spain through the tournament and they have been by far the best team, tactically and their game management was top notch. There is absolutely no reason England players can not perform to that level, especially after 8 years as coach.

Kane should have been rested for the last group game when we were guaranteed qualification and thats when we could have used Toney, Watkins, Gordon, Palmer. Experimented with no risk.

The fact is we lucked out massively ending up on the side of the draw we did and we would have likely lost to Italy, France, Germany or Portugal

The tournament as a whole was massively disappointing with Englands matches being some of the worst.

I believe that Southgate is just bang average and would i take the risk with a more forward facing manager who would take more risks but make watching England enjoyable? 100%

 

[NSEWonderer]

Netherlands arent a big team, certainly nothing special since 2010/4. A Netherlands side that finished third in their group and sneaked into the knockout stages

We played well against Germany in 2018, arguably the best Southgates England ever played, but it was an admittedly poor Germany Side and it was 6 years ago. If the best we have to go off is that we beat Germany 6 years ago, we beat Argentina in the group stages in 2002.

All this shows me realistically is that England are roughly at the same level we have ever been at, with 2008-2016 being a poor patch.

I wouldnt mind but the football we have played for the last couple of years has been turgid, unadventurous and tactically conservative to the point of the aim of each game is not to lose, rather than to win.

He made his first change against the Netherlands 80 minutes in. Its reactionary, he never looks to change the game. Kane was doing nothing at that point and the change were 15 minutes too late.

Same with in the final. Kane was clearly unfit and his presence was negative on the whole team performance and shape. Once the sub was made things improved massively...for 10-15 minutes.

I have watched Spain through the tournament and they have been by far the best team, tactically and their game management was top notch. There is absolutely no reason England players can not perform to that level, especially after 8 years as coach.

Kane should have been rested for the last group game when we were guaranteed qualification and thats when we could have used Toney, Watkins, Gordon, Palmer. Experimented with no risk.

The fact is we lucked out massively ending up on the side of the draw we did and we would have likely lost to Italy, France, Germany or Portugal

The tournament as a whole was massively disappointing with Englands matches being some of the worst.

I believe that Southgate is just bang average and would i take the risk with a more forward facing manager who would take more risks but make watching England enjoyable? 100%

Right on the money analysis here. Not sure why we have to keep praising mediocrity especially 8 years of it when Spain have had a manager of 2 years and a squad who have had even less time "as a team" win a final with imo an arguable slightly less talented squad, man for man.

 

[Class15]

likely lost to Italy, France, Germany or Portugal

Not sure about Italy - they were beaten pretty comprehensively by the Swiss.

 

[d9009alycidon]

 

[westv]

I wish people would stop saying "it's coming home" - although they won't be now.
"Coming home" in the original (best?) version referred to the tournament coming home in 96 and was nothing to do with us winning.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

i think it is the end of the road, naturally, for him. He has done a great job, but still not enough for many people who seem to have forgotten how poor England have been over the last 30 years!


I mean come on how much more does he have to do to allow you to show a bit of objectivity? Did you hold Cappello or Erikson to the same standards? What about Hodgson? Keegan? Taylor? Maclaren? Hoddle? Venables lost a Euro semi does he get your ire? Robson lost a world cup semi. Awful?

Just to be clear on Southgate:

2018 World Cup – 4th place
Euro 2020 – Runners up
2022 World Cup – Quarter-final
Euro 2024 – Runners up
63% win rate

He will do for me - who do you want instead?

EDIT - I will add this, because, you know, you have to state the obvious: Southgate is not a fantastic manager. He is a good manager who has done a good if unspectacular job of just chugging away and progressing in tournaments. He has been to slow to make substitutes, to slow to respond to changes in the game and is a cautious manager who doesn't take many risks. He is a good guy, all the players say positive things about him. He has improved the atmosphere around and within the England team and is always willing to take on the criticism to shield the players. He also seems to be a good modern leader with sensible honest values.

The big what if for me is the Italy game at Wembley. That was the one we should have won.





Agreed x 2 - i think it will be the end for Southgate but we should look back at the improvement he has made to our tournament standing and be grateful. I maintain, what will be the excuse when we fail under the next manager?

Wish this forum had a like facility.

Every single word.

This squad of players is by far the best we've ever had, including the '66 squad in my opinion. We know we have talent all over the pitch, yet for the most part we've seen it only in brief flashes with most of the football being played like we were a National League side playing in the 3rd round of the FA Cup against a top side. The players have looked ill at ease with Southgate's tactics, often finding themselves playing roles not their natural ones to suit Southgate's preferred style. And it only just got us out of the group and through the 2nd Round. Were it not for Bellingham's overhead kick against Slovakia, we'd have been a plane home long before the final.

So watching a team under-perform so much is disappointing, because never mind the Italy game, this was the tournament that we could have won. But instead we, as you put it, chugged our way through and eventually the tactics failed at the crucial point, made all the worse because we should have built momentum after Palmer's goal but instead withdrew and invited Spain to have another go, which they duly did. There is even a story on the BBC site today headlined "England have the best squad, but not the best team", which is exactly how I see it. And under Southgate I don't see this changing, in fact we risk becoming so predicable that qualification could become trickier let alone getting to a final again.

And who would I like to take over? It's never going to happen in a million years, but Jurgen Klopp. I think he would be exactly what the England squad from an OK team of chuggers into a team not only capable of finally getting a trophy, but playing well getting there.

Klopp are you out of your mind ? We don't want that man anywhere near the England team.

Just to remind you that in international football you can't break the world transfer records for keeper and centre back and more to the point we want to win something not constantly come up short like Klopp.

Not sure about Italy - they were beaten pretty comprehensively by the Swiss.

Agreed. Switzerland were a much better team than France, Germany or Portugal. 3rd best team at the competition after Spain and England.
Germany were OK but people's opinions of them were clouded by the 5 1 win over Scotland who were the worst team in the competition.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Wish this forum had a like facility.

Every single word.


Klopp are you out of your mind ? We don't want that man anywhere near the England team.

Just to remind you that in international football you can't break the world transfer records for keeper and centre back and more to the point we want to win something not constantly come up short like Klopp.


Agreed. Switzerland were a much better team than France, Germany or Portugal. 3rd best team at the competition after Spain and England.
Germany were OK but people's opinions of them were clouded by the 5 1 win over Scotland who were the worst team in the competition.

Actually a Klopp would make sense based on the fact you're not up against a FFP Money Breaking machine like man city with one of the best "quick fix show me the money" managers In Pep Guardiola. Klopp breaking the records for a keeper and CB is after how many years of neglect that pool team had and even then transfer wise it was a drop in the ocean compared to other teams spending's directly after.

I'd however not want to see Klopp anywhere near the English team nor would he himself because he most likely would be in the running for the German National team if he were to come back to management. Would make no sense to go out of the 3 real logical options in the UK if Southgate were to go which is unlikely.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd however not want to see Klopp anywhere near the English team nor would he himself because he most likely would be in the running for the German National team if he were to come back to management. Would make no sense to go out of the 3 real logical options in the UK if Southgate were to go which is unlikely.

Didn't Klopp express an opinion that he wanted to enjoy life away from any form of football management in his later years?

I wish people would stop saying "it's coming home" - although they won't be now.
"Coming home" in the original (best?) version referred to the tournament coming home in 96 and was nothing to do with us winning.

Since the UEFA EURO finals have been held since inception, which country can make claim to hosting it more than any other country?

 

[NSEWonderer]

Didn't Klopp express an opinion that he wanted to enjoy life away from any form of football management in his later years?

Indeed did, I assume the original person that posted about him being an option for the England Job was theoretically basing it on when he'd come back.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Since the UEFA EURO finals have been held since inception, which country can make claim to hosting it more than any other country?

Believe it's been hosted by France on three separate occasions (1960, 1984 and 2016).

Italy hosted it in both 1968 and 1980 and were also one of the 11 various countries all staging matches in 2021.

 

[westv]

Didn't Klopp express an opinion that he wanted to enjoy life away from any form of football management in his later years?


Since the UEFA EURO finals have been held since inception, which country can make claim to hosting it more than any other country?

Not sure. Tournament "coming home" as in 1996 being the first major football tournament in the England since 1966

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not sure. Tournament "coming home" as in 1996 being the first major football tournament in the England since 1966

The problem, from what I have been told by someone of advanced years, stems from the fallacious belief that England is the home of football in a historical sense.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

Actually a Klopp would make sense based on the fact you're not up against a FFP Money Breaking machine like man city with one of the best "quick fix show me the money" managers In Pep Guardiola. Klopp breaking the records for a keeper and CB is after how many years of neglect that pool team had and even then transfer wise it was a drop in the ocean compared to other teams spending's directly after.

I'd however not want to see Klopp anywhere near the English team nor would he himself because he most likely would be in the running for the German National team if he were to come back to management. Would make no sense to go out of the 3 real logical options in the UK if Southgate were to go which is unlikely.

No it wouldn't. If we are concerned about GS from a tactics pov then we'd be frantic at Klopp.

Schooled on numerous occasions by Ancelloti, Simeone, Zizou in the UCL not to mention Emery & Gasperini in the UEFA Cup.

He talks a good game and the vacuous clowns fell for every word whilst Fleet St blew smoke up him.

 

[Whistler40145]

What England lacks is a no messing Manager from the Brian Clough style.

 

[NSEWonderer]

No it wouldn't. If we are concerned about GS from a tactics pov then we'd be frantic at Klopp.

Schooled on numerous occasions by Ancelloti, Simeone, Zizou in the UCL not to mention Emery & Gasperini in the UEFA Cup.

He talks a good game and the vacuous clowns fell for every word whilst Fleet St blew smoke up him.

Schooled on numerous occasions as a massive stretch so is comparing GS anywhere remotely to Klopp.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

"Football's Coming Home" were just some of the lyrics written by TV presenters Frank Skinner and David Baddiel for the "Three Lions" record released in conjunction with the 'Lightning Seeds' in 1996. The lyrics essentially acknowledged that the Euro 96 tournament was the first (major) one held in England since the 1966 World Cup (as well as suggesting, rightly or wrongly, that England is perhaps the 'homeland' of association football).

 

[Whistler40145]

I'm trying to work out how we can win finals in other sports, but not so in Football.

Is it down to training, tactics or because Footballers get paid far more than in 1966?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

"Football's Coming Home" were just some of the lyrics written by TV presenters Frank Skinner and David Baddiel for the "Three Lions" record released in conjunction with the 'Lightning Seeds' in 1996. The lyrics essentially acknowledged that the Euro 96 tournament was the first (major) one held in England since the 1966 World Cup (as well as suggesting, rightly or wrongly, that England is perhaps the 'homeland' of association football).

Going back some years, I remember someone saying the phrase "Three Lions on a Shirt" was referring to the days of the Roman empire when Christians in thin clothes were herded into the ampitheatre and lions, that had been starved for some days, were then released, with obvious consequences.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Going back some years, I remember someone saying the phrase "Three Lions on a Shirt" was referring to the days of the Roman empire when Christians in thin clothes were herded into the ampitheatre and lions, that had been starved for some days, were then released, with obvious consequences.

Arrant nonsense. The song's lyrics don't mean that at all.

 

[SteveM70]

There was also a gulf in class between England and Spain in the BBC punditry. Shearer / Ferdinand / Richards offering very little but Juan Mata really interesting and insightful

 

[Sunil_P]

I wish people would stop saying "it's coming home" - although they won't be now.
"Coming home" in the original (best?) version referred to the tournament coming home in 96 and was nothing to do with us winning.

World in Motion is my personal favourite Ingerland song!

 

[westv]

World in Motion is my personal favourite Ingerland song!

I think WIM is more from a player's perspective whereas 3L is more from a fan's frustration at constant disappointment but eternal hope of "I know it is unlikely but maybe, just maybe"
Frank Skinner would have been 9 in 1966 so I expect the World Cup win must have left a lasting impression on him of what could be.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

Schooled on numerous occasions as a massive stretch so is comparing GS anywhere remotely to Klopp.

Apart from the fact that he lost every time he played against the managers I named in european competition how is it a strech ?

 

[Darandio]

Apart from the fact that he lost every time he played against the managers I named in european competition how is it a strech ?

He didn't. Try again.

 

[peteb]

Just wondering why there isn't a UK football team combining the best of the four existing teams? How come the UK can field four "national" teams whereas eg: Spain can't field Basque, Catalonia and Aragon? Is it because "association football" originated from the UK?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just wondering why there isn't a UK football team combining the best of the four existing teams? How come the UK can field four "national" teams whereas eg: Spain can't field Basque, Catalonia and Aragon? Is it because "association football" originated from the UK?

Essentially, yes. When FIFA was established in 1904, it was specially agreed that each of the four British associations (English FA, Welsh FA, Scottish FA and Irish FA) would be recognised as separate member associations of FIFA, in part recognising their contribution to the development of the game, and their influence at the time. There is, of course, one noteworthy occasion when a combined GB team is (sometimes) fielded, namely the Olympic Games, but, for various reasons, a combined GB team doesn't always happen.

 

[dangie]

Wife gone to the cinema so watched ‘Mike Bassett: England Manager’ for the umpteenth time. Still raises a smile or two.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think WIM is more from a player's perspective whereas 3L is more from a fan's frustration at constant disappointment but eternal hope of "I know it is unlikely but maybe, just maybe"
Frank Skinner would have been 9 in 1966 so I expect the World Cup win must have left a lasting impression on him of what could be.

it always makes me laugh just how out of shape some people get over Three Lions. It's a catchy song, it was written to be a catchy song, and it's caught on with England fans. And it's hardly an offensive or incendiary tune, just a ditty about how fans had a bit of hope for their team again. Yet some supporters of other countries go apocalyptic when they hear it, even though some of their songs are far more aggressive (Scotland looking at you ).

 

[peteb]

Wife gone to the cinema so watched ‘Mike Bassett: England Manager’ for the umpteenth time. Still raises a smile or two.

One of Ricky Tomlinson's best roles, though Jim Royle beats them all!

Essentially, yes. When FIFA was established in 1904, it was specially agreed that each of the four British associations (English FA, Welsh FA, Scottish FA and Irish FA) would be recognised as separate member associations of FIFA, in part recognising their contribution to the development of the game, and their influence at the time. There is, of course, one noteworthy occasion when a combined GB team is (sometimes) fielded, namely the Olympic Games, but, for various reasons, a combined GB team doesn't always happen.

Ah ok. Thanks!

 

[Haywain]

There is, of course, one noteworthy occasion when a combined GB team is (sometimes) fielded, namely the Olympic Games, but, for various reasons, a combined GB team doesn't always happen.

Because there is only a UK membership of the IOC, and GB men competed at London 2012 as host nation whereas normally they don't take part at all due to no agreement about which FA would run the team. The women's team do take part subject to qualification, which is by the England team in 'normal' UEFA competition.