Forged Railcard (SWR)

[jonesy472]

2 months ago I was caught using a railcard that was expired but I had changed the date to make it appear that it was still in date. The officer scanned it and I admitted I had changed it. To make it worse it also isn’t my railcard.

I finally received an email yesterday about my case, addressing that I had done this several times since the railcard expired.

I sent an email back apologising a lot and admitting to everything. I am really hoping this doesn’t get taken to court. Are they likely to offer me a settlement or due to the fraud will I be taken to court?

Please help, I understand what I have done is completely wrong so please only nice and useful answers.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

2 months ago I was caught using a railcard that was expired but I had changed the date to make it appear that it was still in date. The officer scanned it and I admitted I had changed it. To make it worse it also isn’t my railcard.

I finally received an email yesterday about my case, addressing that I had done this several times since the railcard expired.

I sent an email back apologising a lot and admitting to everything. I am really hoping this doesn’t get taken to court. Are they likely to offer me a settlement or due to the fraud will I be taken to court?

Please help, I understand what I have done is completely wrong so please only nice and useful answers.

Welcome to the forum!

It would really help if you could show us copies of the correspondence you've had, and what you put in your reply (make sure to hide your personal details - you probably don't want the whole internet to know that this is you we're talking about!). The thing is, the different railway companies do things in different ways - and what you have written when you replied to them can make a difference. So we need to think about how SWR will respond to what you have said.

 

[jonesy472]

Welcome to the forum!

It would really help if you could show us copies of the correspondence you've had, and what you put in your reply (make sure to hide your personal details - you probably don't want the whole internet to know that this is you we're talking about!). The thing is, the different railway companies do things in different ways - and what you have written when you replied to them can make a difference. So we need to think about how SWR will respond to what you have said.

Hi thank you for responding! I have attached my email that I sent to them.

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi.

Could you also show us SWR's email/s and any letters please.

You've left their reference number at the top of the email copy in your last post. It would be a good idea to remove that.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just to clarify, this wasn’t even your own railcard? What difference therefore does the expiry of it make to what you owe?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Just to clarify, this wasn’t even your own railcard? What difference therefore does the expiry of it make to what you owe?

I would imagine that OP expected that the inspector would notice an expired date, but hoped that the inspector wouldn't notice that it was someone else's railcard.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would imagine that OP expected that the inspector would notice an expired date, but hoped that the inspector wouldn't notice that it was someone else's railcard.

Yes, but I don’t understand why the OP says:

I finally received an email yesterday about my case, addressing that I had done this several times since the railcard expired.

- and doesn’t seem to understand that using a sister’s railcard is also fraudulent. This makes all the fares payable, not the ones since expiry.

 

[jonesy472]

Yes, but I don’t understand why the OP says:



- and doesn’t seem to understand that using a sister’s railcard is also fraudulent. This makes all the fares payable, not the ones since expiry.

Hi yes sorry I understand this. I just said about the expiry date as that is what I was pulled up on by the inspector however in my email response I went on to explain it was also my sisters railcard.

Hi.

Could you also show us SWR's email/s and any letters please.

You've left their reference number at the top of the email copy in your last post. It would be a good idea to remove that.

Thank you I have removed this now.

This is the email I received

 

[minderbinder]

I sent an email back apologising a lot and admitting to everything.

What, precisely, did you admit to?

This is a little more serious than the usual cases that we see. Indeed, it appears to be a prima facie case of fraud by false representation.

It may be unwise to admit to anything in writing without professional legal advice.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

You've left their reference number at the top of the email copy in your last post. It would be a good idea to remove that.

Thank you I have removed this now.

Sorry if this sounds like we're being difficult - but please could you restore the redacted version of what you sent (make sure you hide the reference number and your personal details)? This forum relies on people having the time to look art what's been posted - and sometimes we're not all as fast off the mark as you'd like! So for us to give good advice we need to another look at what you sent back to the railway.

 

[jonesy472]

2 months ago I was caught using a railcard that was expired but I had changed the date to make it appear that it was still in date. The officer scanned it and I admitted I had changed it. To make it worse it also isn’t my railcard.

I finally received an email yesterday about my case, addressing that I had done this several times since the railcard expired.

I sent an email back apologising a lot and admitting to everything. I am really hoping this doesn’t get taken to court. Are they likely to offer me a settlement or due to the fraud will I be taken to court?

Please help, I understand what I have done is completely wrong so please only nice and useful answers.

Hi everyone,

This is their email to me and also my response to them:

 

[Haywain]

This is their email to me and also my response to them:

All you can really do now is what to see how they respond to you, but your letter contains all the right elements.

 

[jonesy472]

All you can really do now is what to see how they respond to you, but your letter contains all the right elements.

Thank you, have you seen a case like this before. Do you think it is likely I will be taken to court or could I be offered a settlement outside of court?

 

[Knoodlepot]

Thank you, have you seen a case like this before. Do you think it is likely I will be taken to court or could I be offered a settlement outside of court?

Cannot say 100% if you will be taken to court.
But there have been cases with the person paying £20k back to the train company with an out of court settlement.

 

[DMckduck]

Thank you, have you seen a case like this before. Do you think it is likely I will be taken to court or could I be offered a settlement outside of court?

It is within SWRs interest to settle these cases out of court, and you've shown willingness to settle.

You've just got to be prepared to pay whatever sum they are going to have calculated.

 

[enyoueffsea]

They give a date of January 2023, is this accurate as to when you have been buying tickets with the discount?

From that date do you know how many journeys were booked and the value of the discounted/full price tickets?

From this you may be able to work out a potential settlement figure (+ their costs of anything from £150-£250).

That is if they are willing to offer you one. If I’m honest, I wouldn’t expect one in your case but it’s not impossible. It’s a fairly solid case of fraud and more serious than most cases, with aggravating factors of not only using someone else’s railcard but also trying to amend the date on it.

 

[jonesy472]

They give a date of January 2023, is this accurate as to when you have been buying tickets with the discount?

From that date do you know how many journeys were booked and the value of the discounted/full price tickets?

From this you may be able to work out a potential settlement figure (+ their costs of anything from £150-£250).

That is if they are willing to offer you one. If I’m honest, I wouldn’t expect one in your case but it’s not impossible. It’s a fairly solid case of fraud and more serious than most cases, with aggravating factors of not only using someone else’s railcard but also trying to amend the date on it.

If I get taken to court does that mean I will end up with a criminal record on the system?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Altering a railcard is a serious issue and if a case like this doesn't end up in court, many people would ask how serious a case needs to be to end up in court. That said, SWR will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them, and who haven't come to their attention before. We cannot guarantee this, and they are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to.

As you've already replied to their email there's nothing you can do until you get a reply from them.

If I get taken to court does that mean I will end up with a criminal record on the system?

If you plead guilty, or are found guilty following a trial then this is a criminal conviction and a matter of public record. Prosecutions under the Railway Byelaws aren't normally entered into the Police National Computer and ordinarily won't show on standard DBS checks although we would always advise being honest if you are asked wether you have a conviction. If you are Prosected under the Regulation of the Railways Act then this is entered into the PNC and would show on a DBS until the conviction is spent.

 

[jonesy472]

Welcome to the forum!

Altering a railcard is a serious issue and if a case like this doesn't end up in court, many people would ask how serious a case needs to be to end up in court. That said, SWR will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them, and who haven't come to their attention before. We cannot guarantee this, and they are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to.

As you've already replied to their email there's nothing you can do until you get a reply from them.


If you plead guilty, or are found guilty following a trial then this is a criminal conviction and a matter of public record. Prosecutions under the Railway Byelaws aren't normally entered into the Police National Computer and ordinarily won't show on standard DBS checks although we would always advise being honest if you are asked whether you have a conviction. If you are Prosected under the Regulation of the Railways Act then this is entered into the PNC and would show on a DBS until the conviction is spent.

Sorry I really don’t know much about criminal convictions, would this affect me getting into America just for travel purposes? And if it is convicted under the regulation of the railways act, will this stay on the system forever or will it disappear after a certain period if I don’t repeat the offence. I am only 22 and I am worried this stupid decision will affect the rest of my life.

 

[Hadders]

A criminal record doesn't prevent travel to America as such, but it does mean you can't apply for a ESTA, but would need to apply for a visa. This is outside my area of expertise and I suggest looking at the US Embassy website, or for more general advice around criminal records the charity unlock offers some decent advice.

Unlock

For people with criminal records.

unlock.org.uk

 

[Bungle158]

Sorry I really don’t know much about criminal convictions, would this affect me getting into America just for travel purposes? And if it is convicted under the regulation of the railways act, will this stay on the system forever or will it disappear after a certain period if I don’t repeat the offence. I am only 22 and I am worried this stupid decision will affect the rest of my life.

As well as the US, convictions for offences of dishonesty can potentially affect travel to Canada, Australia and New Zealand amongst many others. Convictions will also need to be disclosed under the upcoming European Entry System and associated ESTIA scheme for Schengen nations.

Whilst not definitively barring entry, convictions may preclude you from using visa waiver schemes and/or being subject to extended formalities at destination borders. I would certainly suggest seeking relevant advice before committing to travel.

 

[AlterEgo]

As well as the US, convictions for offences of dishonesty can potentially affect travel to Canada, Australia and New Zealand amongst many others. Convictions will also need to be disclosed under the upcoming European Entry System and associated ESTIA scheme for Schengen nations.

Whilst not definitively barring entry, convictions may preclude you from using visa waiver schemes and/or being subject to extended formalities at destination borders. I would certainly suggest seeking relevant advice before committing to travel.

Worth mentioning that bylaw offences are not convictions for offences of dishonesty. They are strict liability.

Train companies have lost their appetite to prosecute under RoRA because they did so under SJPN illegally for years. It seems to be almost entirely bylaw offences we see now, although altering a railcard is clearly fraudulent and could be prosecuted as fraud if the train company could be bothered (they are not bothered).

 

[Bungle158]

Worth mentioning that bylaw offences are not convictions for offences of dishonesty. They are strict liability.

Train companies have lost their appetite to prosecute under RoRA because they did so under SJPN illegally for years. It seems to be almost entirely bylaw offences we see now, although altering a railcard is clearly fraudulent and could be prosecuted as fraud if the train company could be bothered (they are not bothered).

Yes, absolutely. However, as you point out, a possible prosecution under RoRA would fall into the "dishonesty" category. Also agreed that there is less appetite for TOCs to pursue this route.

With regard specifically to the US, the concept of "Moral Turpitude" does not appear to have been clearly defined in law. It is feasible that even a byelaw offence could be caught by this. We can only hope that the OP is able to obtain the most favourable outcome and then seek advice on the correct procedures for their travel plans.

 

[minderbinder]

I sometimes see the advice repeated on here that a criminal conviction for fare evasion would prevent travelling to the US via ESTA, and it's not the case.

A lot of the confusion seems to stem from the old ESTA application question asking, "Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude[...]?". As @Bungle158 points out, "moral turpitude" is such a woolly phrase that almost any crime could potentially fall under it.

But that question was removed from the ESTA application form some years ago and it's now quite clear that an individual with a ticketing conviction is able to travel to the US under the Visa Waiver Program via an ESTA. The current ESTA application can be viewed online and the only convictions that would prevent one from travelling via ESTA are:
- a crime that resulted in serious damage to property
- a crime that resulted in serious serious harm to another person
- a crime that resulted in serious harm to a government authority
- possession of illegal drugs
- distribution of illegal drugs
- fraud

(note that, technically, even arrest for certain categories prevents an application for ESTA)

Unlock have a flow-chart that demonstrates the ESTA application form's questions:

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, absolutely. However, as you point out, a possible prosecution under RoRA would fall into the "dishonesty" category.

It would depend on the part of the Act they were prosecuted under. 5)1) isn’t a matter of honesty.

I sometimes see the advice repeated on here that a criminal conviction for fare evasion would prevent travelling to the US via ESTA, and it's not the case.

A lot of the confusion seems to stem from the old ESTA application question asking, "Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude[...]?". As @Bungle158 points out, "moral turpitude" is such a woolly phrase that almost any crime could potentially fall under it.

But that question was removed from the ESTA application form some years ago and it's now quite clear that an individual with a ticketing conviction is able to travel to the US under the Visa Waiver Program via an ESTA. The current ESTA application can be viewed online and the only convictions that would prevent one from travelling via ESTA are:
- a crime that resulted in serious damage to property
- a crime that resulted in serious serious harm to another person
- a crime that resulted in serious harm to a government authority
- possession of illegal drugs
- distribution of illegal drugs
- fraud

(note that, technically, even arrest for certain categories prevents an application for ESTA)

Unlock have a flow-chart that demonstrates the ESTA application form's questions:

Worth nothing from the diagram that the question about fraud isn’t about fraud per se, but rather fraud in order to secure entry to the USA.

 

[jonesy472]

I sometimes see the advice repeated on here that a criminal conviction for fare evasion would prevent travelling to the US via ESTA, and it's not the case.

A lot of the confusion seems to stem from the old ESTA application question asking, "Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude[...]?". As @Bungle158 points out, "moral turpitude" is such a woolly phrase that almost any crime could potentially fall under it.

But that question was removed from the ESTA application form some years ago and it's now quite clear that an individual with a ticketing conviction is able to travel to the US under the Visa Waiver Program via an ESTA. The current ESTA application can be viewed online and the only convictions that would prevent one from travelling via ESTA are:
- a crime that resulted in serious damage to property
- a crime that resulted in serious serious harm to another person
- a crime that resulted in serious harm to a government authority
- possession of illegal drugs
- distribution of illegal drugs
- fraud

(note that, technically, even arrest for certain categories prevents an application for ESTA)

Unlock have a flow-chart that demonstrates the ESTA application form's questions:

Thank you for this, has definitely helped put me at ease a little bit I really appreciate it

It would depend on the part of the Act they were prosecuted under. 5)1) isn’t a matter of honesty.


Worth nothing from the diagram that the question about fraud isn’t about fraud per se, but rather fraud in order to secure entry to the USA.

Thank you for your help it’s really appreciated

Hi guys, I have spoke to a solicitor who says if I pay him £750 he can get this settled outside of court and has a 100% success rate. Just wondering what you guys think about this as it is quite a lot of money and he says it has to be paid before I hear back from them however part of me thinks does he have a 100% success rate because they were never going to be taken to court in the first place?

 

[AlterEgo]

You almost certainly don’t need a solicitor for this.

 

[jonesy472]

You almost certainly don’t need a solicitor for this.

Just don’t know whether it is a safer option as they have a 100% success rate on settling these sort of cases outside of court. Not sure I want to just hope they’re lenient on me and risk a criminal record against me :/

 

[Haywain]

part of me thinks does he have a 100% success rate because they were never going to be taken to court in the first place?

If he's got a 100% success rate I'd be inclined to ask how many cases have been involved. After all, 1 out of 1 is 100%.

 

[furlong]

100% success sounds entirely believable. But a solicitor would know better than to let you write something like "This incident has caused me considerable distress" - you should hardly be attempting to seek pity for a situation entirely of your own making!